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I was reading a bunch of information about different types of lighting from various sources. A lot of it says pretty much the same thing, Mercury vapor bulbs are the way to go. My question is does anyone have any further information about the bulbs that measures the UV output compared to compact florescent and compared to tube lighting? I'm really leaning toward the MVBs but I am also afraid that the UV output of the bulbs doesn't really last as long as the companies say they do. My other question is does anyone know how hot they really get? I've heard conflicting information about that as well. Any information about any type of lighting is appreciated!

Thanks!

"I was reading a bunch of information about different types of lighting from various sources. A lot of it says pretty much the same thing, Mercury vapor bulbs are the way to go. My question is does anyone have any further information about the bulbs that measures the UV output compared to compact florescent and compared to tube lighting?"

I am just not a fan of the compact UV lighting. Here's an organization that tests the UV output of many types of lighting.

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/

Great info from an independent group.

"I'm really leaning toward the MVBs but I am also afraid that the UV output of the bulbs doesn't really last as long as the companies say they do."

I'm sure that is addressed at the website above. The only way to know for sure how long your particular UV light is effective is to get a UV meter. Otherwise, we are all relying on manufacturer suggestions and time tables for changing lights.

"My other question is does anyone know how hot they really get?"

Mercury vapor bulbs get as hot as the designated wattage implies. I use PowerSun 100 watt bulbs for some of my animals and they get as hot as a standard 100 watt bulb. That can be good or bad. In a warm room or a small cage and placed too close to the animal, it's bad. If you would ordinarily use a 100 watt bulb for heat, it's fine. The real issue is having enough distance from the light. MVB are designed to be placed a certain distance from the animal. If you place a MVB 10" to the dragon, it's too close. On the other hand, if you place a tube flourescent 10" from the dragon, it is just fine.

I don't use MVB on any small enclosure. For small lizards, I take a kitchen fixture and 10.0 florescent light and hang it or secure it inside the cage at the top of the wall. That way the UV is unfiltered but still coming from above. Then I change them every 6 months.

The MVB I use for my larger enclosures and larger lizards: the iguana, tegus, etc. I will put the MVB on the adult dragons who are in larger enclosures now and again.

Hi,

Save yourself some cash and use 45 or 50-watt halogen flood bulbs(PAR38 or 30's) for a complete lighting and heating source. There's no need for 100 to 150 watt MV energy cannons or UVB tubes. Dragons DO NOT need them to survive. I have dragon set-ups with UVB tubes and without, the only difference is that one cage has supplementary white light and the other does not.

My appeal to them is that they're supposed to last a year and maybe up to two years and not lose any UV lighting. In the long run it would save my money on replacing tube lighting. I was more worried about overheating than anything.

With 100 and 150 watt bulbs, you certainly have good reason to be worried about overheating. It's incredibly inefficient to use those amp pulling energy cannons when 50 watts is plenty.

Buy one long-life 50W halogen flood bulb. It will throw enough light and heat to satisfy a dragon's need throughout the life cycle. They last 1-2 years on average lighting cycles and cost about $8-$10. Learn where to place it inside your cage to achieve a 120-130 degree basking hotspot (surface temp measured w/ temp gun). Try to use wide surfaces to bask on.

Dragons don't need UVB tubes or MV bulbs to survive.

Bearded dragons do need exposure to UVB rays to survive, how that is provided is in only three ways, specially designed mercury vapour bulbs, florescent tubes, or natural unfiltered sunlight.

Without UVB exposure, dragons cannot create vitamin D3 which is required to utilize calcium ingested by the dragon. Calcium is very important to dragon's to build bones and other metabolic processes.

Vitamin D3 can be provided via supplements but there is always the risk of over supplementing or under supplementing. Better to spend the money to buy a good UVB bulb or give your dragon access to natural unfiltered sunlight 15-30 minutes a day then having a sickly dragon which fails to thrive, or dies of vitamin D3 toxicity.

Yes it is possible to provide dragons with supplementary Vitamin D3 without giving too little or too much but this is something I would not recommend to any beginner lizard keeper. Too little supplements and the dragon can develop MBD, especially in fast growing babies, which, if not dealt with, can cause deformities in the long bones, jaw, muscle spasms and even death. Often this requires vet intervention to prevent dragons from dying, which brings up cost of seeing a vet, paying for treatment etc.

Also, there is indications that UVB exposure promotes better color and overall wellbeing in animals (it certainly is shown in people. People tend to be more down and depressed during the winter months, especially February due to the much shorter winter days (or at least for those of us who live far enough from the equator to notice a distinct difference in length of day during the winter). Reptiles who are diurnal seem more active and alert when exposed to UVB and full spectrum lighting.

I recommend changing uvb producing bulbs once every 9 months.

www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Researchmain.html is another site that gives info on UVB readings.
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PHLdyPayne

Um..I'm sorry but have you had dragons very long? If you ever raised hatching you would know how important UV lighting is to their health. They can die without it. I've have several rescues where the owner was ignorant and did not use UV lighting and it caused metabolic bone disease. I have a very special girl that can not mover her back legs AT ALL because someone thought it was okay to leave her without UVB lighting. Please do research before you tell people that because your information is incorrect.

I have a few years under my belt

I have tanks with UVB supplied and tanks without. I trust my instincts and am a visual learner. To date, my most important observation is that they tend to close their eyes alot more with UVB supplied. I think it causes mild flash burns to thier eyes and is more harmful than beneficial. I worry more about oversupplemention than too little.

Lizards do not gain color with UVB supplied, it is trickery of your own eyes. YOUR adding a full light spectrum so it is in appearance only that they gain color.

There are thousands of lizards(not just dragons) living healthy in captivity without UVB tubes or MV bulbs.

Peace

There are plenty of other benefits to providing proper UVB lighting to bearded dragons that have nothing to do with our visual abilities. And yes, there are many species of lizards that don't need UVB at all..but Bearded dragons are a species that does require exposure of UVB.

A couple years isn't long enough to completely understand how much or how little UVB a bearded dragon or other diurnally active animals require. Scientists have researched into this for decades and still don't completely understand it.

However this isn't' the first time I have heard of the 'No UVB' method of keeping dragons, and being very hardy lizards, bearded dragons can and do thrive in such conditions...but its not ideal for them. Humans can survive without exposure to UVB rays as well (and yes, we do need sunlight to produce Vitamin D3 (or just Vitamin D as its often simplified as) but scientists have done tons of research on how little to no sun exposures in humans affect our moods and health. (scientists and researchers tend to get far more grants to research how sunlight and UVB affects humans than they do for reptiles...sucks but that's the truth).

As for dragons keeping their eyes closed more, never had that problem. Only time I heard of any issue with UVB bulbs causing problems in dragons are from some brands of compact florescent UVB bulbs and some brands of the tube form UVB bulbs. MVB that are mounted too close to the basking spot can also cause this.

www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm for more info on problems with compact UVB bulbs.

My bearded dragon is very active, never has her eyes closed unless she's sleeping at night and I just use a Repti-glo 8.0 UVB tube for her cage.

I don't consider myself an expert on bearded dragon care, but I have been researching, reading, asking questions, reading answers, talking with various big names out there who have kept and bred bearded dragons and other reptiles for 20, 30 or more years...determined that bearded dragons are very tolerant of mistakes...and can 'get by' on OK husbandry, or even bad husbandry. Unlike Green Anoles who quickly die if kept in improper conditions (insufficient heat, UVB etc.)

Most health issues in dragons can take months, even years to reach the point of being life threatening....MBD is the most noticeable in babies who grow very fast and need calcium to grow far more than a dragon that's over a year old. Thus they tend to be less 'fault' tolerant. Dehydration, improper basking temps, insufficient UVB exposure or vitamin D3 can take a long time to manifest problems. Gout (caused by chronic dehydration) may only show up 3-4 years as swollen limbs that are sore and tender as crystals start to form in tissues, as there isn't enough water in the body to flush them out as would normally happen. Impactions can take months to get to the point there is a complete blockage. Just like cholesterol can slowly build up in our veins over decades of bad eating habits before it ends up killing us...sometimes we die of something completely unrelated to it first.
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PHLdyPayne

I've read up myself. Most herpetologists who actually have REAL experience in the field will tell you that reptiles will hide during peak hours of sun, avoiding the high intensity of UV and UVB rays. They may bask for a short while, on a high surface temp (120,130,140F) to get the metabolism up but they won't stick around too long in the high sun. Know why? It's dangerous to them just as you and me. Nothing esapes the power of the sun.

There is one thing you're right about. I haven't had success doing this for 20 years, just over one year with no UVB set-ups. I take out the dragons in the summer here in IL, not for the benefit of UVB rays but for the benefit of stimulation of being outside. They often get that "glow" after an hour out in the sun. The sun's intensity has something to do with it, possibly exposure to UV and UVB rays. But how much? I don't know. What I do know is that no fluorescent tube or MV bulb is going to come remotely close.

Peace

Sorry but you have some incorrect conclusions. Yes, dragons do not bask in the mid-day where basking temps. are very high. But, this is a different issue from UVB. There is more UVB from the sun in the shade during mid-day than any bulb puts out. UVB is important to all species including humans. It has been shown that Arab women are deficient in D3 and therefore bone density due to their entire skin being covered.

Time has taught me that UVB is very important, but that bulbs of all the types we believe in, are severely lacking. Regardless I continue to use Zoo Med 10.0's almost exclusively. My dragons go outside during the day in the summer.

I now take in only special needs animals due to the significant amount of animals I now house. Many are or were MBD but the primary cause was lack of calcium supplementation.

This is a complex subject, but a reasonably small percentage of dragons can thrive with proper supplementation without UVB. BUT, all dragons will benefit from UVB.

There not conclusions on any kind, just theories. Take it easy.

And I never said that lizards don't bask in the heat of the day. They most certainly do. But not for long periods of time. We agree on the UVB cutting through the shade, but there not setting up for a picnic under the tree. They hide in brush, dig burrows in soil, wedge into rock piles where there is more safety from the sun and predators. On a side note, I was in Florida near the gulf two weeks ago and temp-gunned a palm tree with a few house geckoes calling it home. Pulled 120F from the mid-section of the trunk where I had seen the a few of them. Temps were in the mid-80's that day.

Supplementary UVB lighting isn't needed in captivity. I've never seen a study that would suggest it would make a lizard more active, have better color and digest calcium better blahblahblah. If anything should be of note it's how many dragon keeps probably OVER_DO_IT with calcium and vitamin supplements. Feeding feeders with calcium, dusting feeders with calcium, dusting greens with calcium. Where do dragons in the OZ get access to all that calcium and live out full, healthy, lives??? Management of heat and core temperatures will allow a lizard to process calcium.

All dragons benefit from UVB? I think not. I'll go back to LdyPayne's reference to the coil-type UVB compacts that are now found to be harmful rather than helpful. Those models are more of a risk due to design. Coil style bulbs can throw as many lumens per kilowatt used as a tube style. Actually, I think they are more efficient in that regard. Problem is they are more intense in a smaller footprint. The intensity of that white-blue light causes a flash burn to a lizards' eye. If your not familiar, check into photokeraitis. It bothers me to think of how many keepers are still using these bulbs and how many are still on shelves.

Peace

The bugs and plants we feed here are not the same as the bugs in Australia. That is the problem. Dragons have developed over the millenium to eat what is available in their home territory. We have to supplement here because the bugs we feed have a higher Phosphorus/Calcium Ratio.

Many new keepers have claimed that UVB bulbs are unneccessary. Mostly because the bulbs are costly and inconvenient for them. After their experience increases, they too realize that UVB is an important component in a dragons health.

I never argued that UVB isn't important for bearded dragons. It's just not well documented on how much exposure they need. I believe that it is minimal. They metabolize calcium via thermoregulation, I don't believe exposure to dangerous rays is a factor at all. I suggested to the original poster that you simply don't need UVB fluorescents or costly MV bulbs in captivity. The only use they have is to pull amps and brighten up the cage for your viewing pleasure.

This is hard to comprehend, but I challenge you to try it out. Remove those repti-sun 10.0's for 6-months on one of your cages. Read and react, take data.

Remember this when in support of UVB - only 1-2% gets through our atmosphere, yet is plenty enough to cause malignant skin cancer. Yikes.

Peace

You need to do more research. You have a lot of contrary opinions.

Contrary to what? What factual evidence can you show me that UVB tubes and MV bulbs outproduce a halogen flood light or incandescent in satisfying a bearded dragons heat and lighting needs? I can find a few pics of dragons on the web with permanent damage in-and-around the eye from keepers who thought more UVB tubes or CFL-types were the way to go. My theory is that the miniscule amounts of UVB they can produce isn't the problem. It's the fluorescents themselves!

Please don't link drop something from the website of the company thats sells, markets, or manufactures the UV and UVB products. No biases, just facts.

Alot of the rescues you taken in probably had much bigger issues to deal with than the abscense of pretty white lighting.

Peace

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm

Here's an excellent link that's actually worth something. No sales pitches, no biases and no classifieds. Many cases reported here about the flash burns caused by flourescents. Your really going to tell me that UVB fluorescents have value when they are indeed the direct cause of these problems?

If you don't see this with your dragons, than your UVB bulbs are too far away to cause harm to their eyes. Which is a good thing

Peace

Have you actually read the information found on that site? There is far more about UVB there than the dangers found in a few select UVB producing bulbs.

As for UVB exposure, you are giving your dragons that exposure as soon as you take them out in the sun. Dragons and other lizards do not need to be out in the sun for 12 hours straight to receive sufficient exposure to UVB rays...the short basking at dawn (UVB ratings at dawn are usually around 5-50 units depending world location.

When you talk about damage to skin/scale/eyes due to exposure to UVB rays, what really is the cause of the damage isn't the length of exposure, its the intensity of the UV Index. When the UV Index is high, then exposure over 15-30 minutes can cause damage to the skin, depending on how sensitive our skin is. (ie fair people are more sensitive than dark skinned people). African tribesmen who spend most of the time out in the open are not burned to the crisp due to the pigment in their skin which helps to protect them from harmful rays. There are studies done on this but I really do not have the desire nor time to research it.

The UV Index rating of most florescent tubes are much lower and outside the harmful levels for bearded dragons but still provide sufficient UVB light for dragons to properly metabolize vitamin D3. (unless the dragon is about 1 inch from the bulb).

=http://www.uvguide.co.uk/index.htm]www.uvguide.co.uk/index.htm

This site is the one you referred to earlier, referring to the dangers of some compact UVB bulbs, but that document is only one page of the above website. Check the left side bar, you will see many additional pages about UVB in nature, measures at different locations of the world at different times of the day and different seasons. It also explains how reptiles and humans DO benefit from UVB exposure.

If dragons and other lizards are brought outside in the morning or evening for half hour daily, they don't need any supplementary D3 or UVB bulbs in their cage...they get what they need from the sun herself. However for keepers who are unable to provide exposure to natural light due to time, location and/or seasonal concerns, indoor housed dragons will need a UVB bulb.

Those of us who have been keeping reptiles and dragons for years, didn't all just make this up for the heck of it, we did research, we networked, we have tried different things, have seen the results of insufficient UVB etc. Sure, we all don't have Master degrees in Biology or Zoology, nor are we reptile veterinarians... but that doesn't mean we don't have experience, both learned via trial and error on our parts, through our peers, reading what others have researched etc. Any vet with reptile experience will look first at your husbandry to ensure the animals requirements are being met, including exposure to proper levels of UVB.

Read the website articles at the site linked above, plenty of great reading there. I have read it myself and still refer to it time to time when I need to.
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PHLdyPayne

Most of it and I believe I have a grasp.

Check my previous threads, intensity of the light is the problem that I have noted the whole time with UV and UVB bulbs, not the small amount of UVB they can create.

We'll see I'm no expert either.

I know someone who keeps Vietnamese leaf turtle and nothing in the care sheet about this species say you require any UVB light for it since this species hides all day in the forest bed in the thick jungle. Anyway, her turtle developed soft shell and was lathargic and wasn't intested in food after awhile, so she decided to put UVB light above the turtle cage. Within 3 months the shell start get hard again and the turtle was back to normal eating well. There are other examples that say these UVB lights do benefit the animals being kept under it. Green iguanas, for example, tend to develop MBD if are not exposed to UVB light source because they don't absorb it very well from the food they eat. This is a well know fact for people who keep green iguana (Iguana iguana).

If you slash open your thigh with a butcher knife, then cover the wound with some duct tape, it may stop bleeding. But that doesn't "fix" it.

I would bet 18 nickels that the turtle keeper has other issues with her husbandry, the UV bulb is not the secret "missing" piece, or solution.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

She had it checked out by vets and it is find after the UVB light was installed. She caught it just in the nick of time so it was reversible. Apparently, the vets said it wasn't getting enough vitamin D3 from its food even though she dusted the worms, snails, slugs and mealworms with the occasional pinkies her turtle ate. That's was a long time ago, now the turtle is over 13 years old and doing well. That happened probably about 11-12 years ago when she first got it while the turtle was growing....

The light intensity produced by UVB bulbs is lower than most regular incandescent light bulbs so that wouldn't cause any problems with dragons. Some bulbs do put out very bright light which can be problematic but most people don't use these sort of bulbs for basking anyway.

A 100watt standard soft white household bulb (which is one of the wattage of bulbs I use for my basking lights for my reptiles) puts out only about 1200 lumen of light intensity. The sun kicks out about 50 000. As most animals know better to not stare up at the sun, its not a problem.

Besides, other than problems with the compact UVB bulbs produced several years ago, no other bulbs have been known to cause problems in reptiles due to light intensity. It was the high UV Index produced by those UVB bulbs specifically which caused that problem in reptiles.
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PHLdyPayne

I'm not trying to start a war LdyPayne Just stimulating conversation.

I know a good deal about lights, luminous flux, radiance etc.
Fluorescents like CFL's and T-5's, which are often the bulbs that are used for UVB-producing products are 3-4x MORE efficient @ producing light than an incandescent. A 23-26W CFL bulb is usually noted as having the luminous output comparable to a 100W incandescent. The light is VERY intense for it's size. Reptiles (dragons more specifically) are attracted to light because they know it means HEAT. One of the many problems with fluorescent bulbs for reptile applications is they don't offer much heat, being just a little warm to the touch.

The very TINY amounts of UVB they can produce is not the problem. Fluorescent bulbs are the problem and they don't have merit in reptile applications. I've noted that linear T-5 types are safe to use 12"-20" from the surface of exposure but anything closer your asking for TROUBLE for your lizards' vision. Long term detriment if ignored.

Peace

You and Robyn need your own club. At least until you get some more experience.

Typical of your threads

Ok then...many of us are under the impression that UVB is a necessity, others say you don't need it. That argument is not my concern except for the eye damage. I am wondering what it is about the lights and the UVB exposure that causes damage to your beardies eyes. I have an old dragon name Leo who is almost 8 years old. He is not seeing as well as he used. I notice this when he is trying to get his live prey. It could be his older age but I really would like to know what is the BEST thing to do for beardies. Thanks so much guys and take good care, Beth

As a beardie gets older their eyesight deteriorates I've noticed this also. Is it because of the UVB lights we use? That's very doubtful. It's most likely just a symptom of aging like the reading glasses I now have to wear.

Only the compact fluorescents have been shown to cause eye problems and then only when reptiles are too close to the bulbs.

There really is no argument about the value of UVB. Beardies have been kept in this country for about 40 years, long before there were any UVB bulbs on the market. UVB usage started and the bulbs were designed because sun loving reptiles did not thrive in captivity. I have never heard of any reputable sources claim UVB is unnecessary. I own every BD book and not a one claims they are unnecessary or optional.

Just some newbie's that don't like it because it's expensive or inconvenient to their setup.

Thanks so much for your response. Have a great day. Take care Beth

I'm just participating in the discussion...not intending to wage an attack.

You claim that you have seen your dragons thrive without UV exposure. You take your dragons out in the sun. Whether you do that for UV exposure or other reasons, the fact remains that they receive UV exposure. Therefore, your argument cannot be valid any longer because your dragons *are* receiving UV from an external source.

I think that is the contrary opinion.

If you guys look at http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm
you will notice that most of their stuff comes from
http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/iguanas-and-artificial-ultraviolet-light.pdf

This is the first part of the whole article which is worth reading at least I thought so.

Readers will recognize that, in order to stay healthy, iguanas require UV-B (ultraviolet radiation in the “B” range) as much as they need the complex salads we prepare for them daily. Without UV-B, the all-important mineral, calcium, cannot be effectively absorbed — and calcium is as critical as nutritious food, water, and heat. In responsible husbandry, we must replicate the UV spectrum required for the photochemical process involved in metabolizing vitamin D3 (which mediates calcium absorption) — while never forgetting that this will be of little importance if the diet, heat, etc. are less than optimal. Also remember that this is a discussion on what is best for reptiles, NOT humans. We have deliberately excluded highly technical terms to keep the reading enjoyable.

Oh and they tell you what bulbs are best in it too.

Oh and a big note is that in the article they took readings of UVB rays in the shade which showed up in the normal areas for UV rays. They said YES THE SHADE! That means that like in mid day when people say beardies in the wild hide away to get away from the killer intense rays that they are really just moving to the more normal amounts of rays. Yes bulbs do not produce as much UV as the sun but that is why you run them for 12 hours in the same spot to give him the correct amount they need. MVB bulbs change after a break in period. At first the are super high in UV rays and then about a month later they drop off 30-50 percent of the amount of rays they produce. Read the article it gives a lot of information on bulbs how and why they are made the way they are. Prolly the best article on why not to buy cheap bulbs and what bulbs work well from studies.