Reptile & Amphibian Forums

On the 6th of may I created the thread "New Boa Morph??" in boa morphs subforum, but I see that no one took a look, so I repeat it here.

29.04.09 our young female of Sharp strain albino gave birth to 19 babies and their father is male albino T+ Max Caramel(Also known as Blond albinos in Europe. First time we breed them in 1996. Their parents were normal colambian boas (Boa constrictor), they appeared to be T+ albino heterozygots.). It was her first of child-bearing time and she wasn't paired to other males. All the babies had the same phenotype. They aren't similar to paradigm. They looks like T+ Max caramel, but with new color shade. All these babies have light tongues like T+ albino boas.
Two weeks ago the second female Sharp strain albino was paired to Hog island x Sharp srain albino male. She had lots of unfertilized eggs and six boas(3 albino and 3 heterozygots). And when I looked at heterozygot's tongues I noticed that they are black as the normals have.
Now I'm waiting for young boas to shed, and then I will look at them more attentively.

Young boas began to shed. I want to wait untill all of them shed. Now more new photos. There two scanned images from old photographs: CB 1996 - the first Max Caramel from phenotypically normal heterozygots (T albino/siblings - 1/3) and CB 1999 - litter from female Max Caramel and her father(T albino/normal het - 1/1).

15.05.09 the T+ Max Caramel beared babies. She was paired with two males Hog Island x Sharp albino. There were born 13 babies and 13 unfertilized eggs.
As I predicted the babies phenotypes were different. But the most important thing that one of the babies is the typical analogue of Paradigm. If we count unfertilized eggs there would be more babies like this.
Why the scission is so strange?
We work with our line 13 years. And my version about this scission is that maybe T+ Max Caramel has two T+ albino genes. I think so because lots of years I see the birth of lighter boas inside the T+ Max Caramel line.
But may be it's something else.
I think there will be more surprises with the selection of this line.
With best wishes
Sergey Prohorchik.

Confrarulations.
I am not surprised you got a 'parablonde'. I did the same breeding last year, T blonde albinos x shatp and got 100 % of them (visible dbl het) unfortunately still born
I would agree with you, several locy are concerned so some blondes are and some are not compatible with the sharp !

So ghost looking. I guess that's the blonde? I see the tongue is white from the albinism? Cool looking eyes.

So,I just did the same breeding and got different results. Peter did the same breeding and got different results and the animals he got look totally different from the animal/s you just had. Alain said he did the breeding and got your results but we never saw any pix and he said they were stills and I thought he had originaly said they were also premie. This is the only breeding that we didn't see pix from so if they were infact premie then the color could've just been faded from either being premie or stillborn as both would effect color right? My Blonde came from the same stock as Peters as far as I know. When mine came out normal that made me think that Peter some how got lucky and hit on 4 animals that were supposed to come from breeding the normal DH's he got back together but he basically skipped a generation. This has happend to Jeremy S. and I think someone else but Jeremy bred a VPI to a Motley het for nothing and got three VPI carmels in the litter.

I was also tossing around the idea that there is another gene floating around in the Blondes but was thinking it comes after the first generation of breeeding to a Sharp, so it should come from breeding the babies from that litter back together. All of this is very CONFUSING!LoL! One of the main thing thats bugging me though is the fact that Peters look so different from the one's you just got? Where did your Sharp stock originate from? Maybe it's coming from the Euro Sharps? Maybe not but i'm just trying to figure this stuff out. Any opinions on what I just wrote would be greatly appreaciated!

Ruben,
remember 2 years ago on this forum, when I posted a blonde x blonde litter, the whole forum (exept you and of course Gabor) told me that they were not T plus and they were also able to explain me why ! The previous years Gabor had ‘top breeders’’ e-mails explaining that they were not T plus,... I have learned things from it and other events. You allready know what are my feelings, conclusions and why I am not communicating since.

But to make it a little bit clear and answer some of your questions, last year I got prematured babies 8 days before the due date and still born on the due date, removed manually with my vet . The femelle had bones problems on the spinal colunn and could not give birth without help (even after several days with ocytocine ) because of some larger ‘funky’slugs..
I can say this , the phenotypes of a T blonde and a het T blonde are not the same when you know what to look for, that’s also thrue with ‘parablonde’. In my Sharp x blonde 08 litter, I got 8 days premiers and full term stillborn babies, I have blondes since 2003, different colors, bred them and know perfectly what to look for. I could have made my statement even with 1 month prematured babies, when colors and melanines are not well develloped.. I have no doubts about what I got, not a sperm retention from 07 to (never got any cases myself in 30 years) because of some details they had I did not saw in blonde x blonde litters.
Ruben, your litter is today the only one wich such results, only normal looking babies, so ?

Thanks for reading.

I see what your saying but here's my thing, and please read this with an open mind.

I understand what you say you got. The fact is, without visual proof like the other 3 litters it's hard to use your case as an example. So,people are going to question your credibility cause there's no proof. I can say I had a litter from this boa bred to that boa this year and I got this crazy Green boa but it died and i'm not going to show pix. Now,you think people are going to believe me? I don't think so. My point is,if you did infact have that litter whats big deal about showing the pix cause i'm sure you took some to atleast document the litter and it's not like it hasn't been done already so you don't have to hide it so you can get ahead in the project. Also,a premie or stillborn litter is definitely going to effect the looks of the litter know matter how much you know about the boas. I had a small premie litter from my nice Anery to a Hypo Jungle and the Jungles in that litter looked like Anery's. With that saids,i'm not saying your a rookie at this but 8 days early and stillborn is going to make a huge visual difference.

That brings us back to this new litter vs. mine and Peters. Honestly, and it might just be my screen but all I see in that Sharp X Blonde litter that Sergej posted is normal dh looking babies. They are lighter looking but don't look obviously different like Peters did. I'm also not taking any sides here but thats what i'm seeing on this end and I think a lot of people are thinking the same thing from what i'm hearing off the forums and it kinda reflects on the amount of responses this thread is getting. I mean,yea that animal in the last pix looks different and is some sort of T animal but there is Hogg blood in that litter right? So,that can effect the looks. If that whole first litter from Blonde X Sharp was infact different looking I think you'd be seeing a lot better reaction and more replys than the 4 it's got up until this point. Again,it may be the pix or my computer screen thats throwing off the looks but i've looked and stared at the pix for a while and don't see anything different except that they are lighter colored babies then mine were. I know some Blondes don't picture well either but you can atleast look at the tail and see the T grays in the tail rings.

The one thing that gets me is that the animals Peter got stand out way more and have totally different color than the ones just posted. I mean it's a night and day thing. As,i'm writing I went back to see bigger pix of the litter thats supposed to be all different and they look no different than my litter pix except the pix from Sergej are a little more close up. I mean they may be a little cleaner speclikng wise and that could be why they appear lighter but at the same time my Blonde was the last of the litter and not the cleanest and I know those guys have way more refined stock so that again will result in nicer looking babies.

Again,i'm not taking sides cause Peter helped with me getting my Blonde and you know I stood up for you and the Blondes when you first posted them and people said they weren't T . I think the reason for that was because everyone had a picture in they're mind what T pos should look like because of the VPI's and their looks. Just because the Blondes had a different level of T pos looks most people wrote them off. I know that has changed now. My point to all that is,i'm not trying to take away from what they think they have but i've looked and looked at the pix from the Blonde X Sharp female Sergej posted, trying to see something that stands out like I did when you first posted the Blondes and I can't see anything but nice normal Double hets. I mean look at the birthing pix? Look how dark they look and then take my tub pic and put his tub pic side by side like I just did. Except for his being a little lighter, they look the same. Even the saddles do.

I'm not trying to discredit this litter like i've been saying the whole time. I just don't see what your seeing and would like to see some better close up pix if possible. I have no problem being wrong. I just want to be convinced like I was when I first saw your Blonde pix. Like I said above. I hope you guys both read this with an open mind and don't take it like i'm calling you liars or something like that cause thats not the case at all. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

will be. I have some of ALL the ingredients but I am not sure there is room in the oven for another project yet.
-----
Ty Hege
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

In selection of Max Caramel I came to F4 generation. During this time I saw lots of their children and had a possibility to leave some of the best for myself. But with some of really interesting examles a had to sell. I already said that this line is variative. From generation to generation I could see the brightening of the background color and pattern color. Changing of pattern and appearing(in different strength) of Zig-zag.

Look at these photoes. Here are photoes of only adult(not all)
examples. Also I don't want to load you with photoes of
subadults.







And these example was born in our collection in the first time.
Just newborn he looked like this.

And now it looks like this.

Possibly it can be fasten in genotype. It looks like something
between Arabesque and Aztec.

The colour of tongue is also variative. There can be lavender colour from lavender red to nearly pink.




It can be even like this.

Accordingly the eye shining color variates from red to bright
red. And in the brightest boas's eyes we can see this pupil's
shine even without using camera flash light. The most dark Max
Caramel in adult state can look like normal boas. But anyway they are albinos. And looking on all of that differences I assumed that maybe there are two T+ albino genes.
When I saw Peter Rice's message, it didn't convince me, because I have lots of information on this topic.
In the litter from heterozygots we can see this scission. And 1/4 of Caramels are more good looking on the background of 3/4 of dark siblings. I even managed to record all this process on videotape in 1998.

But looking on my experience and remembering the version about
two T+ genes I can't deny the Peter Rice's words.
Now about the newborn boas ... It's no doubt that the baby from
the second litter(15.05.09) is albino analog of Mike Weisman's
paradigm. Of course its other ant at the beginning unexpected. I thought that it wouldn't be like that. But let's remember how different can be T+ albinos on this example.

And it seems to be "cold" or "warm" colours. In my case we
observe the exhibiting of cold colours. I think it is feature of Max Caramel. And Sharp albinos from different stocks of course can influent on the litters colours in different ways. This is my opinion. Looking on the babies from first litter(29.05.09) I can't something really definite, but they are really different from normal boas but I'm not sure that they are albinos.
And more ... 19.05.09 there were born Max Caramel x Max Caramel. I put them together with my Paradigm and saw that Paradigm is brighter and "colder" in colours. It's really similar to Ghost Boa.
Sergey Prohorchik.