Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wondering if anyone has attempted to keep goini (Appalachicola kings) together in breeding groups? I know there's more of a trend to do this with alot of the smaller kingsnake species, but wasn't sure if this would be a total disaster like with chainkings?

Yes keeping them togther yearround can an should be done. This is a topic that has been discussed on here quite frequently. Check the archives or scroll back the last month and you will see lots of dicussion on this topic.

Keeping your pairs together make them bond and thus, makes them breed easier. i keep all of my Florida king and aplachicoloas togther year round. When I introduce a pair togtehr (outside of breeding season), I introduce the male into the females encloser during the winter. But honestly, I have done this during all parts of the year and had no problems. This past year I kept 2008 babies togther for the first time and they are still together today. Baby kingsnakes will be more prone to eat each other because they are fiesty and they need more frequent meals. So be careful with neonates unless you know how to feed them regularly and as much (as large meals) as they can eat. Otherwise wait until they are on full grown mice.

King in nature congregate so it is natural for them. But they need to get to know each other first. There are different ways to do this and I again suggest you do some reading on this forum to get more info.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Very good. I'll have a look into the archives to learn more. This will allow me to keep my girl, and expand into a small breeding group if the opportunity arises.

Thank you!

You start the bonding process by keeping them together over Winter, when feeding response is largely reduced. You can tell which snakes bond, especially when the kings are sexually mature and of the opposite sex, by the over Winter communal keeping.

What you don't want to do is put two kings together that have never been together before at the height of feeding response (Spring) in a tiny box. That is when trouble can happen.

2 years ago on this forum, anyone suggesting keeping kings together was vehemently challenged. I think the tide is turning. The keeper has to have a reasonable approach to doing this, but it can be done. There also may be individual snakes that do not play by our hopeful rules, so keep that in mind. Those individuals usually show their colors at the onset.

Hope this helps. Oh, and keep this in mind - there are kings in the wild that live in very close proximity to one another and do not eat each other. What do you think the reason could be? And think of what would happen if it was all out every king for him/herself? The truth is, there are circumstances where king eating king does happen, and there are cirumstances where it doesn't happen. Reproduce the cirumstances where it doesn't happen (plentiful food, bonding, etc) and it likely won't happen.
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Mark

during breeding season (now) I place a single male in mutiple females cages. Example would be my Pewter which has been with at least 8 femalkes it never boded with. I never had a problem with kings eating each other. I don't know what i am doing wrong (or right) to get them to do this. But during breeding season males are not eating and females are fat and ready for a male. I would never place a new male in with a hungry female.

I guess it is all about how much you feed your kings. I hear more about diet and keeping kings from getting overweight than anything esle. Mybe that is what people are doing. Not feeding them enough...hmmm
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www.Bluerosy.com

Most here, including you, use common sense, which is very good, but its very situational. That is, it depends on the situation.

Most here act or think(not bluerosy), snakes are robots. Again that is, they treat them as if they have no ability to learn. As they are windup toys. You wind them up and they will go where you want. The truth is, they go where they are suppose to go and that has nothing to do with you.

As with many other social animals, if raised alone, they do not "know" how to be with others. So, with many other animals, they must be "socialized". For instance, if you want dogs to get along with other dogs, then socializing them other dogs when young is best. If you want them to get along with people, then "socializing" them with people is best done when they are young. This goes for birds, mammals, even insects. Try introducing a lone cricket to a cricket colony.

So to me, folks get very prejudiced and forget to use common sense. Most raise babies solitary, until they are adults
(adults equal set in their ways), then try to colonize them and wonder why it does not work. Of course, the older they are, the less it works. Then they say these are solitary animals. A good advisor would tell you, that is a BAD test. Its bad in many ways, START OVER. hahahahahahahahahahaha

Remember, THIS IS BEHAVIOR, which means its a weak science. The same set of circumstances can reveal many different results. With behavior, the results are measured in trends, not math. With behavior, there are many different types of influences. Not just temperature and humidity. But more like, those enviornmental conditions and experiences(lifes training), exposures, and pheromones, and many more. So no, A times B does not always equal AB.

Yes, all snakes that I know of, have colonies, they also have solitary individuals(transients) The question is, how did they come to that.

So, whether they are social or not in nature. They should be socialized in captivity, or breeding them will be something YOU have to time. IF you socialize them, then it is so much easier on you the keeper. You do not have to worry about missing a cycle or "if she will or will not" People who keep other types of animals do this routinely. What is the matter with snake people???? Oh I know, they are snake people. hahahahahahahaha, joke please.

What I like to do is keep more females then males. I normally keep a pair of trio in a cage, then move the male to lone females. That way, I will have success and I can expand on that success. But I do socialize all babies of all types of reptiles.

As you know, I have mentioned this so many times. In most cases, people do not understand the HUNGER level of their captives. They feed on a timing basis. Like once a week or twice a week, or less. Which has nothing to do with snakes, NOT IN THE LEAST, it only has to do with people and their tendency to make schedules. Snakes feed when hungry. When conditions are normal, that can mean everyday or even twice a day. If the conditions are not so good, then less.

As many of you know, I feed wild snakes. The female coachwhip has fed everyday for six days in a row, and some days twice(mourning and afternoon). We also feed rattlesnakes, which may have a much lower metabolism. They are feeding every second to third night, and when it gets hot, they will feed every night.

In both these cases, and more so with the rattlesnakes, THEY MUST COME TO A SPOT TO FEED. I do not feed them where they live. That means, they use a hunting behavior, they must go to where the prey is. They control when they feed.

So many folks starve their snakes, then wonder why they eat eachother. They also raise them alone and wonder why they do not get along with others later in life. I dare to say, humans raised alone do not fit well into groups.

What is sad is, this is not about snakes, its simply about captive animals. The REAL problem is psuedo science. Someone finds one under a piece of tin and calls it solitary. Someone else finds three under the same piece of tin and calls them social. Which on is right?????????

Further more, the biggest problem is sciences failure to fit its methods to reptiles. So they twist and turn the reptiles to fit non reptile methods. For instance, snakes live in a rubics cube. That is, part of the cube is above ground, the rest is under ground. We humans seperate that, but snakes do not. Try and understand this. You lift a piece of tin, theres a snake there, is alone. So its solitary, yet, down six inches and over six more are two more. So is the one under still solitary or by itself. Or you lift a piece of tin at the base of an oak tree, you find a grey rat, while you looking at the grey rat, there are many in the oak tree. Is the one under the tin solitary????

Sorry for the rant, but the above is the absolute truth, Snakes live different then us. Science likes to throw around the word "anthropromorphic" yet, science is the king of anthropromorphism. Snakes live above, on and below the surface. To them its the same, YET we only count what we see on the surface. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm silly humans. Rant over, please return to your monitors.

My experience is also like Bluerosys. I normally do not ever have a problem with putting snakes together, even other peoples snakes that have never been together. Thats why I add the starving thing.

I do not want to say this, but some of you must raise snakes in such a way they are insane. Simply put, the FACT that some of us do not have this kind of problem is proof that YOU that have the problem are doing something wrong. Even if you do not want to admit it. Which is ok, but why do you pass that on to others? Thanks

First this:

"So, whether they are social or not in nature. They should be socialized in captivity, or breeding them will be something YOU have to time. IF you socialize them, then it is so much easier on you the keeper. "

Then this:

"In most cases, people do not understand the HUNGER level of their captives. They feed on a timing basis. Like once a week or twice a week, or less. Which has nothing to do with snakes, NOT IN THE LEAST, it only has to do with people and their tendency to make schedules."

BTW I agree with both these statements but it does seem we're being a bit inconsistent with the idea that husbandry practices should be about the snakes and not us.

Finally there was this:

"Snakes feed when hungry. When conditions are normal, that can mean everyday or even twice a day. If the conditions are not so good, then less."

I think the use of "normal" and "not so good" to describe how conditions effect feeding is a bit subjective. Example:

Say you keep a trio of matched kings together in a cage that has the wide range of temps you suggest. Say you feed them all they will take, what will they do? My experience says they'll spend as much time as required in the warmer sections to metabolize what was offered. Now say you switch to a feeding schedule of 2 or 3 appropriately sized (subjective I know) rodents every five days. What happens? Again my experience is that they will alter their pattern of thermoregulation long before they turn to eating one another? There are two principals at work here, food supply and an individual's ability to metabolize it. Conditions and food supply are relative.

As I see it the advantage to your system Frank is that it is more forgiving of the keepers! Feed a lot, the snakes adjust; feed less, they adjust. The problem with the standard cookbook method is that it isn't very forgiving. Feed than conditions support the animals regurgitate, feed less and they'll always be hungry, mature slowly and reproduce poorly if at all. That however is not to say that a keeper can not find the right balance given a smaller range of temps in a more confined conditions.

To me conditions are either optimal or they are not. Optimal "captive" conditions are those that support effective metabolism of the amount of food given and the frequency at which it is offered such that growth and sexual maturity is achieved. This to me reflects a balance between the recourses the keeper has (or is willing) to offer and the requirements of the kept.

Good post BTW.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

"Feed than conditions support"

ment to say Feed LESS than conditions support
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I wonder if rubber gloves will allow me to talk to you, hahahahahahahahahahaha

The problem with you and I IS, we are totally on a different wave length. I mean, different universes. I mean, different worlds. I mean different genders, you are so MALE. Wait, I am a male, but, I go by the animals needs(feelings), how tender of me. hahahahahahahaha

You said,As I see it the advantage to your system Frank is that it is more forgiving of the keepers

By the way, if you would do this with your replys to me, it would be BETTER! hahahahahahahaha

You think I have a system, hahahahahahahahahaha ITs not about a system. Its about understanding the snakes. ITs about understanding their abilities and they range of potential(s) Yes, range of potential. They can and do grow FAST, or slow, or not at all. They can die too. They can lay one clutch of one egg or a large clutch, or up to four large clutches. They can do these with support, and nothing else(support equals, temps humidity, and food intake, and of course behavioral support). No hormones or steriods need to be adminstered. All on there VERY own.

A system should include the understanding of what these animals do. It does not have to explore the entire range, but it should understand what the range is. For instance, a commerical breeder, wants efficentency. A small individual double clutching high numbers of small eggs. While a private breeder may and should have other criteria. A large beautiful snake producing fewer larger offspring. Or for the beginer, a system to keep the animal alive until they sell it or trade it off.

Besides, who gives a darn about the keeper? not me. hahahahahahahahahaha Its better for the animals to be able to do things on their SCHEDULE.

Yea, you and I do not see eye to eye. hahahahahahahahahaha systems, hahahahahahahahahahaha my system, hahahahahahahahahahaha how funny Cheers

I think if you re-read the post Frank you'll see that by and large I agreed with your prior post. True I look at things from a different angle but I'm a different person with differnt experience. If you want to use that to make things personal, that's your issue, not mine.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Well why don't you say you agree??????

About personal, I am responding to YOU and you always say, FR this or FR that, or your system, etc. That sir is personal. I tend to say, snakes this and snakes that and back it up with results and observations. You back up your theories, with such things as, it makes sense or I read this or that. Or you say, I sort of agree, but twist that in a way that your agreements are very confusing.

The real point and difference between us is, YOU make rules, Then I bust them. You must understand, that it only takes one exception to break a rule. The problem is, I have lots of exceptions to your "absolute" rules. And so does several other keepers on this forum.

I have come to understand why you pick out something I say and call it absolute. It appears you think in absolutes. You even read in absolutes. Sir, with animals, NOTHING IS ABSOLUTE, also with behavior nothing is absolute.

The reality is, kings in nature occur in groups, many many of us have seen that. They do not consume eachother normally. Some peoples captives do without question consume anything put in the cage with them. Yet others have all types of kings in pairs and groups without problem. That sir breaks down all rules of they can and they cannot. That makes it about why do they consume eachother in captivity and why don't they consume eachother in captivity. Those reasons may or may not reflect the same reasons they behave that way in nature. My guess is, at least some of the reasons are the same.

Please consider, nothing I said is ABSOLUTE, so try to think of this as trends and methods of survival. Cheers

"2 years ago on this forum, anyone suggesting keeping kings together was vehemently challenged"

what was challanged was the simplified notion that they only eat each other when starved.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Again, its only you that simplified it. As a whole explination was given, but you only dwell on what YOU want to dwell on. Aggggggggggggggggggg I responded to you, hahahahahahahahahahahaha I got to wash my fingers off with soap and water.

Besides, how we feed our snakes has nothing to do with how they normally feed. That has been very clear when we watch wild snakes.
And yes, starving has EVERYTHING to do with it. WEll almost, as you know, nothing is everything.(read that backwards too) hahahahahahahahaha

Again if you would attempt to understand what you read instead of reading with the hopes of refuting it, you would have attempted to understand how snakes control hunger. Most very naively think its about feeding to control hunger. NOT entirely SO HUMANS, they control hunger by picking cooler temps as well as feeding. If they cannot find food, instead of only having one avenue to take care of that. They simply go down(to cooler temps)

Even you should understand that cool snakes do not feed, it does not matter when they fed last. Hmmmmmmmmmmm interesting hey?

How this relates to captivity IS, people(average recipe following human) feed on a schedule and do not change that schedule even when the temps increase during the hot part of the summer. Or only increase it a litte bit. So THE SNAKES STARVE, even if they are feeding.

IF you were keeping a little track of the coachwhip saga, you would see that SHE comes to feed, many days in a row. Once five days in a row, and now six. Some of those days she ate Twice a day, up to six mice a day, with the low being one, most often 4 mice. Remember, she controls when she feeds and where. She has to go to a spot to feed. Dude, thats how they roll, not a a stinking regular schedule. Hmmmmmmmmm which reminds me, and people wonder why they get fat in captivity, take the above and reverse it.

Hey, I got four clutches of kings yesterday. Cheers

FR,

It is not about Tony. It is just, he just, makea a lot of typoes, like me.
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www.Bluerosy.com

whatever Frank
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Again, your games. I offered some very good meat to chew on, you know, material to dicuss. Stuff like wild snakes can control their rate of energy usage, and that controls their drive to feed. Then compare that to captivity where they are kept at a constant temp, and cannot control their hunger.

I feel that this constant warm, is what causes extreme hunger and then cannibilism. But you IGNORE this and only want to talk about people this or that, or FR this or that.

To me sir, your totally about avoiding being thought of as WRONG. Sir, you do not have to agree, that is normal. But how about offering reasons to why these ideas are not true?????????

You must keep in mind that all these discussions have the ability to help or hinder captive snakes. None of these ideas have any effect on wild snakes, as wild snakes do make their own choices. Cheers

You are ranting Frank. Re-read the posts.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

The reason I get confused is, I have something to say about snakes, I have subjects that I like to discuss and all you can say is, I agree or not, and often both at the same time. It seems you really don't have anything to say about animals, just lots about people.

I harbor some hope that you will say something original about snakes. You seem to have some experience because your so willing to JUDGE everything, but never offer what that experience is. Which is why I should not respond to your replys. I tend to get disappointed. I guess the point is, I would love to HEAR why you agree or disagree. I could really careless if you agree or not, its the reasons what are of value. Its those reasons that would be interesting, not that you agree or not. Somehow you seem to feel its important that you agree. Again, that is not important to me, unless you have some valid superior reason to do so. have a great day, Cheers

this is the kind of shenanigans we need to get the kingsnake forum back on the Top 10. Onward and upward . . .
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I've kept adult Florida and Eastern kings together with no problems as to one eating or trying to eat the other. Others I know with Cal Kings have had one eat the other. I've also found wild FL kings that regurged other FL kings.

I have had problems with baby kings eating each other. Another friend of mine keeps all of his baby Cal kings together and feeds them all together. In fact, keeping them together seems to stimulate a competitive feeding response, so all the snakes end up being better feeders.

I generally believe that adult kings will not attempt to eat each other, especially after they've become habituated to each other. I plan on putting together a communal cage of kingsnakes in the near future.

I do know that the chainking are notorious for being cannibalistic, and I recently had a female attempt to eat the make twice during introductions. She hit him so had one time I heard a thud when she hit! She managed to grab him directly by the head for consumption both times! Very scary!

On another note, my goini seems very much more placid overall, and doesn;t attack like the chains do when I open the cage. My males will actually attack and bite my feet if given the chance! Doesn't feel very nice to have a kingsnake attached to your foot! LOL

I'd like to try at least a breeding trio of goini, and I'm glad everyone seems to agree it can work.

Thank you!

I kept a trio together long term with no issues but my experience is limited to keeping adults together. IMHO the secret is to have adequate space so that they can get away from each other if needed. Snakes can have individual "personalities" and individuals don't always act the same. Lots of room and hiding spots allows cage mates to back off if needed. My trio was kept in a classic 4' Neodesha cage. Given surface and subsurface area this seemed sufficient.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I agree that space is important. I have alot of experience with keeping snakes in colonies, but thought it best to see how others were making out, if at all, with keeping the goini together. I have read info relating goini to being intergrades of chainkings, which brought up concerns of serious potential for cannibalism, but it sounds like this is quite feasible with adequate space! I'm very glad to hear it!

I really appreciate the input!

Mine are kept in small sweater boxes,

I think the key to intorducing eastrns kings is like any other . FEED THEM FIRST!..or introduce when they are cool. However, I think it is safer to do it when they are well fed.

From what i have learned from herpers is they don't FEED their snakes Enough....1) large enough meals ..2) frequent meals. A hungry king, whether it is a cal king, Florida king or eastern will devour another new snake it sees if it is hungry.

..and yes, STARVING is a subjective term. Most don't realize their snakes are that hungry.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I think for most keepers out there, keeping snakes in colonies requires more space than they are willing to give, you know, cleaning, expense, time. But it can be done, but I wouldn't do it if you cannot give a great temp difference, many hide spots, starting them young, and feeding them what they need. The difference here is most new keepers don't know what the snakes are capable of, if given the chance to (express) it. The older folks have worked on this for many years, and the bigger breeders can also do it in smaller quarters, but they pay more attention with the details from over the years. I wouldn't keep large colonies of large snakes if I couldn't afford to feed them and quarter them correctly.
Currently, my trio of goini are caged separately, but they will be put together in a 55 this winter to see how it goes. They are all still young enough so I don't worry about the dreaded snake vs. snake thing, plus they are fed well. they are always hungry, but I still don't have that fear. I haven't experienced this yet with my splendida or holbrooki, and I KNOW they eat snakes in the wild, and they are together but in pairs.
The math is, feed well, good temp varience, plenty of hides= good snake community, just don't introduce an outsider!!!
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Todd Hughes

Todd I don't think I've ever seen my goini breed. Recently i keep them seperately simply because I didn't have a large enough cage to do otherwise but when they were kept communally I always suspected that they bred over winter.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I hope to see that next year, as well as the hypo floridanas, it's been a long time waiting.
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Todd Hughes