Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I took this pic through the tub with a flash, so it's not great. You can see the male holding her with his mouth. Now that he's figured it out he won't leave her alone!

Awsome man I iwsh I wish I could have some easterns but I leave in georgia but congrats there awsome!

Thanks man. These are from the "S. Georgia" line of Easterns.

It's the next day now and the male still has his jaws locked on her. If he doesn't let go soon I may consider trying to separate them.

Thanks man. These are from the "S. Georgia" line of Easterns.

congrats but, i beleive "mosaic" easterns originated from the edisto island SC area not southern GA. nice animals though good luck with them.,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hi Thomas. I am aware of the Mosaic Easterns from Edisto Island, South Carolina. The ones I've got are from the Will Still/Kevin Enge line, which originates from Echols/Tift County in Southern Georgia. I got this pair 3 years ago from Keith Hillson.

They finally separated! Now they're back in their own tubs having a drink.

yeah it was keith that started calling them mosaics. the problem with that is they are differant snakes and really have diff. looks as well, but i suppose okeetee corns can really originate from anywhere now as well as brooksi fla.kings and now mosaic easterns, kinda sad really...
good luck with them,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Hi Thomas. As I recall, Keith Hillson and Will Still shared the project that produced my "mosaics". Maybe Will will chime in here.

I haven't seen any "mosaics" from the S. Carolina lineage for sale in the 3 years that I've had these. Then again, I don't go to many shows. I definitely haven't seen any on the classifieds.

The pattern on these is so different from a typical eastern king that they really deserve a name. As long as they're identified as being from the S. Georgia line as opposed to the S. Carolina line, I don't see it as a problem. Several other breeders also purchased these as "mosaic" eastern kings, so I couldn't change the name even if I wanted to.

In any event, if I'm lucky enough to get a clutch from this mating, and if I can bring myself to part with any of them, I will be sure to label them as

"L g. getula : S. Georgia : Mosaic"

or something like that.

And I think these were named before the "mosaic" floridana hit the market, so the "mosaic" easterns are not the cause of any possible confusion there.

This is my male. As you can see, these retain their color into adulthood, unlike the "mosaic" floridana. The red and yellow on this guy combine to give off a green hue. And those little black triangles on each scale are just... perfect! Magnificent animals in every way.

Kevin Enge had Edisto Island mosaics at Daytona last year. I bought a pair of yearlings from him. I also have an adult 1.2 trio that bred for me, so I have 2 clutches incubating. From what I understand from Kevin, it's somewhat random as to how many will come out looking mosaic and how many will look like normal Easterns.

-----
Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

Very cool Paul. That's a beauty right there!

I'm pretty certain that the ones I've got popped out of the S. Georgia lineage. I'll try emailing Keith again.

I'd be hesitant to call them Mosaic even if Keith labeled them as such. They don't look the same as the Edisto kings and its not really known if they're the same morph. I was kind of disappointed Keith labeled those "mosaic".

Nice looking snakes, though!

As I said in my reply to Thomas above, I'm in no position to change the name. I think if I called them "Aztec" or something at this point, it would only further complicate things.

If anyone has a better name suggestion, and it were to be agreed upon by the guys who originated this line, I'm all for it. Otherwise, I'll have to stick with

"cbb : L g. getula : S. Georgia : Mosaic"

Here's my female attacking a tupperware, and then eating a mouse.

kind regards,

Jason Dunn

Oh man I am gonna get flamed for this..

I am still of the opinion that the S. Ga kings are a result of a Aplachicola x Eastern. Years ago I purchased eastern x Goini from kevin Enge (From whom the s.ga wide band easterns originated) when he called them Bumblebeee kings. Then a year later he had one male I needed to pair up with a female and he said this is is 1/4 goini. I asked if this is the same as the Bumblebee and he said "same difference".

But I do know that Edisto Islands are a true locale. Who knows, they just may be a isolated pop that originally crossed with goini as well.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

I've heard varying opinions on this topic, and I don't have time to argue over it. All I know is what I've been told as to the lineage of the snakes I've got, so that's what I'll call them unless something changes.

On another note, the florida kings I've gotten from you are doing well. I just checked the little '08 Jelly and it looks like she's having a growth spurt. Cheers!

I did not profess to have a definitive answer as to the authenticity of wide banded GA kings.
All I wanted to share was what I knew about the BACKGROUND of this particular mutation, in case it could help others that had little or different ideas as to its origin.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

Hi Rainer. Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I don't care what you're talking about. I just meant that I wasn't going to flame you over it.

You may well be right in that these are natural intergrades, who knows?

After looking through my records, I see that there was a discussion on their origin here about three years ago. I've got some posts saved as text documents. Here's one excerpt of a post by Will Still. Hopefully he doesn't mind me posting this quote from '06.

Will Still from '06 ~ "I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that the S. GA getula (at least the line that I am working with) likely have some distinct, natural influences from the other regional getula, be it goini or some really long ago floridana influence. I don't think that anyone who has seen the F2s & F3s could dispute that. Line breeding has obviously brought out some very special characteristics in this lineage. Are they the same as NJ, Maryland, or Carolina easterns...hell no, but that is part of the reason that they are so appealing to me and so many others. They are different, some of them are very different, and whatever it is in their history that caused them to be different, I am grateful for."

I have some old background information on the origin of the Enge S. Ga line that won't do much to solve the controversy - but may assist others in drawing their own conclusions.

I first purchsed two female Bumbleebee kings from kevin Enge in the late 90's (not sure of the exact year)at the Breeders expo in Florida. The reason he called these Bubleebees kings is because it was during a then-exploding colubrid market and a ctachy name helped marketing them. They looked like normal easterns but the bands were cleaner with some reds and oranges in neonates (hence Bumblee king name). These Bumbelbees were what he said came from S. Georgia.

Now, here's where it gets interesting -- about two years later I called Kevin to pick up a male at the Daytona expo to match my females I purchased from him previously. When I got there he had saved a subadult male but its banding was not as clean and wider in appearance then the previous two females i purchased. I asked him of the origin and he said it was "only" 1/4 goini and so had more of the goini look but of bred back to the females I had this trait would be bred out. I also asked him if this was the same as the s.GA "Bumbelebees" I previously got from him and he said yes. This is the snake he saved for me and I passed on purchasing it after his description.

I don't think Kevin Enge was the type to intentionally set out to misrepresent any animals. I do beleive he was backcrossing animals and was a frantically busy guy with a genuine passion for the hobby -- but who really knows? At that time people really didn't care.. I don't know WHY he first explained the S, GA (Bumblebee) as the same as a 1/4 goini x eastern and breeding back will produce the same look.- then later denied it - that certainly is suspicious.

To answer the lineage of the S. GA/ Kevin Enge stock it would be a simple matter to re-create the cross for anyone with the time/interest by simply breeding a eastern king to a goini and then breeding the goini back to the eastern several times. Then with those avaliable "cleaner banded" jet balck snakes breed sibling to sibling and you might get some extreme clean banded eastern looking kings from a clutch. Then selectivly breed the wider banded individuals and viola'. These projects certainly have been around long enough to make this possible.

Here is the only pic of one of the original female S. Ga easterns from Kevin I had bought the first year. They looked just like his narrow banded easterns from what Will and others originally purchased that threw the wide naded extreme S. Ga animals.

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

The statements made there only reflect opinion.

The line is said to be founded by a Tifton female and a Statenville male. Both of these localities are more than an hour's drive from the nearest known Apalachicola king intergrades. Statenville is actually closer to Florida king influence.

Nothing about any how any of these snakes look indicates Apalachicola king influence... sure, they have wide bands, but thats a trait that shows up throughout the eastern king's range, particularly in coastal areas. Red coloration is trait of all kings in the eastern clade of kingsnakes (Florida, Apalachicola, Eastern). If there were Apalachicola influence, I would expect to see basal ligtening, where the center of the scale lightens outward, like in a Florida king. There is none of this in the Enge S GA line. 100% black.

I'm staying out of it this time except to say that the S GA line is my second fav after our local pungo ridge kings.

-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Hi Tony. Yeah, I didn't want to start a thread that turns into an argument over the lineage. It's all good. I was just excited that my pair bred, whatever you want to call them. Thanks for the info!

Aside from my huge Tang Albino Hondurans and maybe a pair of andesiana, these easterns may be the only pair I breed this year. We'll see. It's a late breeding season due to the weather.

If there were Apalachicola influence, I would expect to see basal ligtening, where the center of the scale lightens outward, like in a Florida king. There is none of this in the Enge S GA line. 100% black

If you read my post the one snake was offered to me from Kevin looked suspscious and upon further questions he said it was 1/4 goini and 3/4 eastern.. This made me beleive that further outcrossing to easterns takes this "basil lightning" out. Then back breeding of seemingly true easterns kings back to one another will produce nice looking clean bandsn and jet black bodied snakes. The history I posted on Kevin was before anyone knew or cared about wide band easterns is left up to the individual to come to their own conclusions. We may never know for sure regarding the occurrence of wide band S. GA easterns with all the misreprentation going on these days, every lucky guy with a new mutation is bound to have the new offering undergo heavy scrutiny.

If you back breed easterns that have some goini blood in them and then breed siblings back to each other (even though the goini is several generatiions removed) might well produce some nice looking clean wide banded looking individuals.I have experimented myself with different crosses and backcrossing and found this to be true.

Hillsons Wide banded S. GA eastern from Kevin Enge lines:

-----
www.Bluerosy.com