Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was just wondering who is producing these, and what your experiences have been with them. What kind of ratios are you getting when you breed two leathers together? What is the general health like? Any other issues? I am fascinated by these guys and want to know more!

Jamie

The Italian silkbacks that I hatched this year are doing great. The babies are 4-4.5 inches straight out of the egg. They grow just as fast as their scaled siblings. I usually get 3-5 out of a clutch from two leather adults. Thanks, Josh

Thanks, Josh

I photo'd this one straight out of the egg. He's a little over a week old now and doing great. Thanks, Josh

Wow, those are amazing looking dragons! Great job!

Jamie

Thank you! I would never have produced these beauties without Allessandro's animals. Josh

Hi Josh,

amazing animals! Very beautiful!
Do you pair Italian leatherback x Italian leatherback or do you make Italian Leatherback x American leatherback to get a better result?

Kevin

These guys are 100% Italian leatherback. I don't want to mix them with the AC(american) leather line because I want to keep the silks as scaleless as possible. My experience is that the cross between the two lines produces silks with a lot of partially developed scales. The partially developed scale areas shed differently than the non-scaled areas. If the silk has little or no scales, it sheds evenly and looks a lot "cleaner". Most all the silks that I produced(or will produce) this year are combinations of Allessandro's yellow and red line. Thanks, Josh

Ok, thanks for your words.
I only asked because I heard that the silkbacks out of a cross from a Italian Leatherback x American Leatherback be more healthy. Do you have experience with that?

Kevin

I would say from my experience that the Italian silks do much better than the AC x Italian silks. Josh

Thanks Josh for the infos.
How is the handling with silkbacks? Is there anything different from a leatherback?
Do you have experience with pair a silk female with another male? Does it work? Are there any injurys with breeding to a female silkback during the
breeding with a male, in cause of the bite in the thin skin?
What happened if you cross a silk with a silk?

Kevin

Allessandro would be they guy to talk to about breeding silks. He has way more experience with this than I do. You should get 100% silks from a silk to silk breeding, but I don't think anyone has done this yet. Silk to leather should produce 50% silks, 50% leathers. Thanks, Josh

Hi,
Where could i buy a bearded dragon like that?

Hello Jamie,

Last year I crossed a Red Italian Leatherback X American Smoothie producing very close to the statistical probability of 1:2:1 (Normal:Leather/Smoothie:Silkback) that you would expect with a Incomplete Dominant Trait.

http://www.alphadragonz.com/alpha-cms/Gallery/?g2_itemId=1790

In my experience Silkbacks can be housed in the same way that I house my normal scaled dragons. They are just as healthy as any other dragons. There are some things that distinguish Silkbacks from normal scaled dragons. One of the differences is apparent when Silks began to shed, if they are not aided in shedding in the tail area the shed skin around the tail can restrict blood flow and cause the portion of tail that is not receiving blood to die. This is not always the case, but in my opinion is more common in Silks when compared to normal scaled dragons. Ecdysis constriction can be prevented but it takes a vigilant eye and requires more time to monitor the silks shedding process than a normal dragon. Another difference is that there skin is soft therefore it is of paramount importance to remove all feeders after the dragon(s) has finished eating. This is especially important with Silks as a rogue Cricket or Super Worm can chew through these guys much quicker than a normal scaled dragon. Working with silks is a steep learning curve but the reward is a new and exciting healthy morph with the ability to show more vibrant colors than its siblings.

In Regards to Kevin’s question about what would make the healthiest Silkbacks when comparing the Italian Leather X American Smoothie, American Smoothie X American Smoothie, Italian Leatherback X Italian Leatherback crosses, well responsible breeding philosophy would tell you to use the cross that will produce the healthiest offspring. To produce the healthiest offspring you want to use bloodlines that are not related or distantly related as possible. So since the American Smoothies are reasonably related to each other and the Italian Leatherbacks are reasonably related to each other you would want to use the Italian Leatherback line and cross it to the American Smoothie line. These two lines are either distantly related or not related to each other at all. Keeping that in mind I have never produced Silkbacks from line breeding Italian Leatherbacks or American Smoothies. Although I have housed American Smoothie X American Smoothie Silkbacks and spent some time observing and handling a Italian Leather X Italian Leather Silkbacks I always felt that the Italian Leather X American Smoothie had a better build, vigor, and gait. I have seen several inbred/linebred American Silkies and inbred/Linebred Italian Leatherbacks and the vast majority of them lacked quality builds, some had poor gaits, subpar vigor and a less desirable overall package when compared to the Italian Leatherback X American Smoothie that I and others have produced.

Another factor to consider is when producing Silks is the background of the Italian Leatherbacks and American Smoothies you are working with. For example if you cross a Red Italian Leatherback that came from the cross that Alessandro did to produce the first Italian Silkback and cross that to a 2006 or later American Smoothie you are most likely working with two inbred/linebred dragons. The quality of the Silkbacks from that cross are going to be less than if you crossed a Yellow Italian Leatherback, which was not inbred/linebred, and crossed it to an American Smoothie purchased 2005 or earlier, before the linebred/inbred American Smoothie dragons came out. Lastly if you cross a Red Italian Leatherback from a line/inbred cross to a Yellow Italian Leatherback that is separated by the traditionally accepted safe “5” generations you are still losing something because of the common Great Grandparents or Great Great Grandparents and the inbreeding that occurred in the F1 generation. For all these reasons it is clear that to make the healthiest Silkbacks it is best to cross the two lines that you cannot locate a common ancestor(Italian Leatherback X American Smoothie).

In closing I would like to say that Silkies are not for everyone. They require more attention, time, and skill that the average hobbyist would most likely not be able to provide. My hope is that the number of Silkies that are produced do not exceed the number of responsible, skilled, breeders that desire them.

Note: The opinions and views set forth in the above paragraphs are my personal opinions based on my experiences and other breeders that I converse with and should be understand as that.

Here are some pics of my Red Italian Leatherbacks X American Smoothies

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www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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www.alphadragonz.com/alpha-cms/Gallery/?g2_itemId=1790

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www.AlphaDragonZ.com

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Hi Randy,

thanks for your words. But what did you say to the words from Josh that "the cross between the two lines produces silks with a lot of partially developed scales. The partially developed scale areas shed differently than the non-scaled areas"

Kevin

Randy, even though I'm not particularly fond of the silkback morph, I do appreciate you not jumping the gun and just selling them as soon as they are of age/size to be sold. It shows that you are a responsible breeder. I wish more breeders took the time to do what you are doing by keeping silkbacks and researching their care before they go and sell them to the general public. Thanks for being responsible and just try to make a quick big buck.
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1.0.0 Frilled Dragon - Frank
0.0.1 Rhinoceros Iguana - Mo
2.1.1 Bearded Dragons - Magellan, Galileo, Lizzy, & Machiavelli

Thanks for the awesome information!

I acquired a few non-related american smoothie hatchlings a couple years back back, and I can honestly say that I was disappointed in the build and vigor of the animals. They were small and "lanky", and were generally a pain in the butt. I have been out-crossing them to some of my stock, and the resulting animals are looking to be much improved, and ironically, some of the offspring are much smoother than the parents ever were. I am considering a silkback project once my leathers have the proportions that I desire...just trying to be patient with the whole process, lol. It's so fun and exciting to see how everything evolves!

Jamie

Great advice and it's nice to hear some honest information. I had silkbacks when they first became available. They are flat out not fun. I like lizards to live like lizards. These guys are high maintanence and fragile. I'm a morph guy, the silkies are neat looking, but this is one morph that needs to go away.

We will have some available this year. So far the ones we produced are doing good. I have seen some others from other breeders which they seemed to close their eyes alot and not be very active. Like Josh said we got 3 to 5 out of the clutch. Here is a pic of one that hatched out recently....

Is one of the parents a silkback?