Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys, I am looking into getting a baby water sometime in the near future. Like so many of us, I am looking for the most bright and beautiful color pattern as possible. I have been doing loads of research and have not been able to distinguish the different types of water monitors. Wikipedia has a few subspecies listed, but no further information or photographs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_monitor#Subspecies_of_Varanus_salvator

Does anyone have an idea as to what different types there are? Do most breeders even know? The last response I received was from a breeder saying that they have "Ornate" Water Monitors on the way.

I also received a response from another vendor who claimed that all distributed water monitors are farmed and imported. What exactly is the difference between "farmed" and "captive bred"

Thanks guys!

I do not know much of the different types of waters available other then they can be quite varied and that monitor taxonomy in general is rubbish hahaha.

What I do know is you said most breeders. The most breeders I can think of off the top of my head that actually work with waters and continue to produce them on a regular basis is about 3.

So keep an open eye for those claims of CBB and ask for proof people like Jim Alles will give it to you when you ask for it. Although you might be talking to a breeder, they may not be a water monitor breeder hahahaha.

Goodluck,
Mike.

Most waters you see for sale are captive hatched (farmed) or wild caught overseas. Pro Exotics are most likely the best to go as far as captive hatched because they do a pretty good job as far as animal selection and they usually "hang on" to their waters for a month or two to get some size onto them and make sure they adjust to captivity (thus charging a higher price than other wild caught or captive hatched dealers). Most other breeders who advertise waters for under $200 are all selling fresh imports (farmed or wild caught).

There are a few private breeders out there who get clutches a couple times a year but you need to watch the classifieds for them and ask for proof. They will usually be asking for higher prices ($200 ). Jim Alles at reptileguru.com (who advertises on kingsnakes classifieds) produces some normals and very high yellow waters a couple times every year and the normals are usually around $200 and the high yellows are $600 each. They go pretty fast so the best thing to do is get put on his list. (I have one of his high yellows and it is amazing). NERD also produces captive bred waters but most of them are het for albino so they are asking pretty high prices compared to the others.

Their are many different sub-species of v. salvator so the best thing to do is spend a couple months watching kingsnake classifieds, and other forums (www.cybersalvator.com) is a good one for waters, and decide how much you want to spend and what sub species you are most fond of before you jump in to purchase one. Thats what I did and I am glad I did it. Hope this helps.

What exactly is the difference between "farmed" and "captive bred"

farmed = bred overseas on monitor farms typically in the natural environment of said animal.
CB or CH= animals that were either born from wild caught gravid animals or hatched from wild eggs.
CBB= animals that were bred born and hatched in captivity. (not always easy to find, but the best choice).The other choices aint bad either. Better than wild caught.

[[What exactly is the difference between "farmed" and "captive bred"]]

[farmed = bred overseas on monitor farms typically in the natural environment of said animal.
CB or CH= animals that were either born from wild caught gravid animals or hatched from wild eggs.
CBB= animals that were bred born and hatched in captivity. (not always easy to find, but the best choice).The other choices aint bad either. Better than wild caught.]

I understood 'farmed' to be the same as 'captive hatched' and 'captive born'. Daniel Bennett's& Ravi's book claims these methods to be worse than collecting wild hatchlings for export, due to the permanent removal of gravid females. The book states, females are collected when heavily gravid, then after they lay their eggs, are tossed back into an unfamiliar and often hostile environment, in such bad shape that they die, or are easily preyed upon by the local wildlife.

At least, if they only take the freshly hatched, wild babies, the valuable female is left to produce again, no?

Perhaps things have changed since Bennett & Ravi's book was written?

I didnt say it was good for the monitor population, I said that they make descent captives.The way I look at it if somebody is grabbing gravid females, hatching eggs, then selling them. That is CH.If someone lives in there natural habitat, wouldnt they just have to build large enough fences,feed, and they should breed just like the wild populations? Would that not be farming?

[If someone lives in there natural habitat, wouldnt they just have to build large enough fences,feed, and they should breed just like the wild populations? Would that not be farming?]

I'm sure the term 'farming', conjures up similar thoughts in most people who aren't aware of the grim reality. Maybe that's why they continue to use it?
But, after reading page 45 of Bennett's book, the term 'farmed' doesn't sound so harmless anymore and according to him, CH,CF,CB all use the same practice of, collection of gravid females, letting them lay their eggs, then discarding them like yesterday's trash.

I do think there is some true farming of animals from captive stock, but i think they are being lumped together with the people hatching out eggs and selling them as farmed. At least thats the conclusion i got from reading different sources. So i see farmed and CH animals being different, but it depends on your definition of the word farmed.
Irregardless captive breeding efforts are the future for these animals, its just easier said than done.

I'm sure it's in the best interest of reptile importers/dealers and retailers, to have us think the monitors come from 'sunnybrook farm' in Africa and I guess it's possible Daniel Bennett overlooked those so called 'farms', but that's not the way I read it. I don't understand why anyone with a real passion for these animals, rather than the bucks they can make, would defend CH, CB, or Farming. How are the CBBs ever going to get a real foothold, as long as those inhumane pracitces are encouraged and supported?

>>I'm sure it's in the best interest of reptile
>>importers/dealers and retailers, to have us think the monitors
>>come from 'sunnybrook farm' in Africa and I guess it's
>>possible Daniel Bennett overlooked those so called 'farms',
>>but that's not the way I read it. I don't understand why
>>anyone with a real passion for these animals, rather than the
>>bucks they can make, would defend CH, CB, or Farming. How are
>>the CBBs ever going to get a real foothold, as long as those
>>inhumane pracitces are encouraged and supported?

There are numerous issues at stake here, including
(1) Humane treatment of the lizards
(2) Conservation of wild monitors
(3) Obtaining high quality pets
(4) Humanitarian issues of impoverished people making a living off of local resources.

CH and CB are good for (3) and (4), but not so good for (1) or (2). True farms like the water monitor breeding project at the Madrass Crocodile Bank would be good for (2), (3), and (4) (although these guys are not commercial and as I hear it tend to destroy the eggs they get because they end up with more monitors than they know what to do with). Collection of wild hatchlings or nests would also be good for (2), (3), and (4). Depending on how the lizards are shipped, farming and collecting wild hatchlings or nests could also be good for (1). CBB is good for (1) and (3), bad for (4) and arguably good or bad for (2) (with no incentive to preserve monitor habitat for the economic gain it brings, it may be converted into land that monitors cannot use). Wild caught adults are only good for (4) (although if the harvest is sustainable you could argue it is good for (2) by promoting the conservation of monitor habitat).

So, what issue is most important for you?

Luke

[So, what issue is most important for you?]

If I'm being honest, (2)Conservation of monitors and habitat.

Are you saying that, if we become overly successful with CBBs, it will have an negative effect on the indigenous people?

Are you also saying, if we stop supporting farming, CH and CB, the monitors natural habitat will be turned into 'other' ways for them to make a living that would leave the monitors with only fragments of their natural habitat?

Are you also saying, if we stop supporting farming, CH and CB, the monitors natural habitat will be turned into 'other' ways for them to make a living that would leave the monitors with only fragments of their natural habitat?

valid point.
Its hard to care about wild monitor populations when you are starving. Take a source of income away, they will have to find another.

I'm not convinced it's a valid point. I was merely asking if that's what the poster is claiming.

I don't have enough information, to know for sure. I don't know if Daniel(mampam) reads the forum regularly, or even if he'd care to comment?

You bring up a few good points of contention. This is my take on the African stuff ,

" I'm sure it's in the best interest of reptile importers/dealers and retailers, to have us think the monitors come from 'sunnybrook farm' in Africa "

No way . If want you the facts you have to talk to the exporters.

The guys in Africa have to dance around what ever ridiculous guidelines the next set of "experts " comes up with. There's no secrets. Everyone's knows what's up. Some retailers tell their tales to sell animals. Show me a retail business where the salesmen don`t lie.

The only people that actually care about the environment are the exporters. They need animals . They need it to be sustainable. The governments are convinced by outside groups mainly US based to incorporate feel good laws to make the people watching National Geographic specials feel good . The realty is it`s all a scam. Cites , conservation organizations etc. are a joke.

" Are you also saying, if we stop supporting farming, CH and CB, the monitors natural habitat will be turned into 'other' ways for them to make a living that would leave the monitors with only fragments of their natural habitat? "

The natural habitant doesn't exist anymore where the savs are collected. The wildlife necessary for the natural environment is long gone .

The land has farmed and the forest burned. Animals aren't being collected from some pristine Adam and Eve world . Monitors do fine in disturbed areas. Their like raccoons.

Every year the same places produce huge numbers. I defy anyone to prove this wrong . The only factor that alters production is the weather. What gets collected for the live trade represents a fraction of the animals from a fraction of the range.

I haven`t been there in five years but I talk with the guys pretty regular about everything. The animals have been stable but with the drop off in business in the US the exporters are having a hard time. I see people yapping all the time about "greedy exporters " looking to make a fast buck. The truth is they barely make living. If you want greed private breeders have that market cornered. People say they don`t breed certain species because they can`t compete with "cheap" imports. I thought you were supposed to breed these animals out of caring and interest ? Not because they have no market value. It's not concern about wild animals that gets these people in a bunch , it`s the money that bothers them. The rest is just self righteous BS.

If the pet trade was shut down . The hunters that used to collect for the trade would go back to hunting for skins. Baby lizards are no good for skins you have to kill adults. Eventually that would have to expand their hunting range and go to places that normally wouldn't have.

It sucks over there . No electricity , no running water. NO money . You need money even if you live in hut. When you leave Accra there's not much for comfort and other then the land no way to make a living. Like it or not the animals are a commodity that won`t go to waste. There's two options use that commodity in a smart fashion or burn it up. they've done plenty of both. Not by choice.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

[If you want greed private breeders have that market cornered. People say they don`t breed certain species because they can`t compete with "cheap" imports. I thought you were supposed to breed these animals out of caring and interest ? Not because they have no market value. It's not concern about wild animals that gets these people in a bunch , it`s the money that bothers them. The rest is just self righteous BS.]

Interesting post, but I think there are several private breeders attempting to breed African monitors. Maybe not the most successful breeders, but if those guys are 'into' other species, why would they even keep ones they have no passion for?

For the record, are you saying the information I referred to regarding the practice of so called 'farming', is either outdated, or incorrect?

My perspective is, Take any species and there is always some who really are keeping it out of love. But...........

A lot of people / most get involved with breeding for the money.The number one reason people breed animals is to sell them. Many make their choices based on a perceived investment return. Most are hobbyist who are suppose to be doing it for fun, love of the animals etc. They rant and rave and act like their owed something. Point fingers . They complain about the people who are depending on the animals to survive. And why they should be stopped. Most of these " caring " hobbyist don`t have any clue as to the facts. They don`t care half as much about the animals as the people they rant against.

If there were no more African imports. I don`t believe there would be any more interest in captive breeding . The reason so few people breed the African monitors is because their not practical. No matter what the market they never will be. Stopping imports . The only thing that would change is Savs and Black throats would basically disappear from the trade. The couple guys that do breed them could raise their prices. So what. Its realistic that the lizards in Africa would be used somehow until basically all the lizards found in accessible areas are hunted out. Like everything else in these places. Then things would move on to the next bad idea. This is typically how Africa works.

Farming, ranching , CH, CB whatever . In Africa the guys I talk to all collect 90% of the hatchlings by hand. So far it looks like it`s working. When you collect hatching's this works two ways.One the females go unharmed , the second is you don`t get all the baby's.The numbers don`t lie the lizards are there year after year. There are all kinds of morality's, personal feelings and perspectives involved. There are also the realities of the real world. Having our cake and eating to is a fantasy.

Some exporters do have to collect some eggs and gravid females to put the show on for the UK . The UK `s policy was centered around Animal rights propaganda. Its typical of the conservation game. Its all make believe. The black and white of how conservation laws works is. You can go to Brazil , China , India . Go to wherever the strictest conservation oriented anti live exportation laws have been enacted. And you will find the rarest animals in the world for sale in the soup kitchen.The only time anything gets said is when some TV show is hanging around filming. As soon as the cameras are gone the shows over and it`s back to business.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Gee, you're a ray of sunshine

Thanks for the reality check (I think?)

Although, I don't believe that 'all' breeders are doing it for the money, some do it more for prestige, it seems to me.
(and the virtual 'hi 5s')It's their hobby and they enjoy sharing their successes. Nowt wrong with that!

very well said.