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talking about alterna hunting w/new regs

chrish Jun 05, 2009 08:23 AM

I have received a number of personal emails from people about some comments I made further down in this forum. These came from people I know and respect and from strangers. I appreciate the feedback.

The gist of the emails was “be careful what you say on the alterna forum, LE peruses these forums.” I am fully aware of that fact and in fact I wish they had the willingness and ability to participate rather than just lurk.

The message we appear to be sending to each other, subliminally, verbally, and on private forums is to try to maintain this ruse of thinly veiled secrecy. This all stems from a fundamental misconception that we promulgate – that the law enforcement community is not to be trusted because they are trying to take away our rights. Conversely, we think that LE sees us as a bunch of scofflaws who want to poach snakes out of the wild to sell. As usual when there are such diametrically opposed opinions, both points of view are probably oversimplifications, at best.

We as alternaphiles have a history of going underground. When alterna were protected from 1977 until 1987 (IIRC), some people kept hunting for them and kept them, just very quietly. The “secret society” evolved. In 1987 we all rejoiced as alterna (and several other popular species) were delisted. Of course, we all still knew that roadhunting was technically illegal, but we did it anyway. I’ll bet I put in thousands of hours of illegal roadhunting in TX before the law was reinterpreted. Some mostly restricted themselves to walking cuts since that was legal, but I’ll bet not many of those legal purists drove by an alterna on the road and said “Darn, I wish that snake wasn’t on the road so I could catch it.”

Then came the interpretation a few years back from TPWD that road hunting for snakes was legal. We had everything we asked for, but the mistrust never waned on either side. For the first time in almost 30 years, we could go out and hunt these animals the way we wanted without fear of reprisal. That was a great feeling. Now we are outlaws again.

My point is that alterna lovers have decades of experience going “around” the law and a reputation for doing so. We also have a “hush-hush” policy about it as evidenced by the emails I received. This is silly, since it wouldn't take a veteran FBI criminologist to figure out what this "observation" talk was code for.

Why didn’t we agree as a community to uphold the principles of the law and only herp on private land until we could fix it? Some few did, but most of us have taken the don't ask/don't tell approach. We’ve gone back to the early 80s mentality. The problem is that this is just what people in LE expected us to do and we’ve met the low standards they seem to expect of us.

I actually don’t like the idea of adapting to the new regs because I think if we do that, we lose the impetus to have them changed. The LE folks can just say “see, you can still do your hunting, just on private land. There is no need to change the law”.
The best case scenario would be if we could go to LE and say “look, in 2007 X number of alterna were found on roads and cuts and in 2009 we found X (probably none) hunting on private lands. We have been negatively impacted by this law." But we will never be able to do that, because we lie to each other as well. We can’t ever get a hold on how many alterna are collected each year because a plague of mistrust runs throughout us.

Unfortunately, laws are made and changed based on data and when we hide ours, we don’t get a meaningful seat at the table.

This is why I find this “observation” talk and our hush-hush approach to the truth so bitter tasting. It is reflective of the pathology of our hobby. Is their hypocrisy in my opinion? Maybe just a slightly different hypocrisy.

I had a taste of freedom for the last two years, I don't want to go back underground or see this hobby go back underground. I would rather see us refuse to do so, but that’s all we know how to do it appears.

Chris

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Replies (14)

KevinM Jun 05, 2009 10:28 AM

Chris, I am from Louisiana and unfortunately have NEVER had the opportunity to go alterna collecting in West Texas. I am not familiar with the law or why it has been imposed. Is this law in effect due to concerns of overcollecting, or is this law in effect for other reasons such as infringement on public lands?

chrish Jun 05, 2009 10:42 AM

Kevin,

To be honest, no one knows exactly how or why this law came to be. I have heard a lot of theories but I don't know what the originators intended. From what I have read of the meeting transcripts from this year, snake hunters weren't the intended targets.
As for public lands, there are no herping-accessible public lands in West Texas. All of the land is either private, National Parks, State Parks, National Recreation Areas, or Wildlife Management Areas. Herping is not allowed on any of this land without special permission so the only land left was roads and right of ways.

Chris
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

JYohe Jun 05, 2009 03:56 PM

...Yep.........

people will break any and every law ever written anyways, people will take what they want if they are illegal anyways, and people do take all they can find, and some find alot more than others, it happens in Florida every year, and all states, there are snakes online and at shows that are fresh from the field ,and insects from the west, there are people that dream of finding one scarlet king, and others that take 80 in one week , ..there was a guy on KS selling all kinds of snakes, he vanished after about a week or so, I don't know if KS banned him for something or he got busted by the states he went to /lived in>????...he had 50 of one milk species.....advertised.....PA has always been no selling anything native,never could as I can remember, new laws went into affect last year, lots more on the list of no touch/keep, and all other species went to 1 per not 2 per possesion.....(how can we breed one anything?)....

.......feds and state never will work with us.....on any issue......not even just reptiles.....

....fair post, Thanxx...............someday I'll go to TX, maybe I can see something on the road or have a place to actually walk and look (left)....

..
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......12
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1(normal,mojave,3 spider mojaves)
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Chris_McMartin Jun 05, 2009 09:22 PM

This law is specifically anti-herper. The real reasons why it was passed may never be fully known.

It's not a law about safety. Numerous other roadside activities are still permitted, and even encouraged. Rockhound web sites advise to hunt cuts (for rocks), and include etiquette tips such as "don't knock rocks off onto oncoming cars with your sledgehammer." Texas itself encourages wildflower drives where people stop and photograph roadside bluebonnets. Even more telling is the exemption falconers received from this new law.

It's not about "creating a wildlife sanctuary." That sounds cute and plays well to animal-rights groups but is woefully uninformed, as the Alterna Rush movie will probably demonstrate with its DOR montage.

It might be an attempt to throw a bone to private landowners hoping to make a little extra cash during the deer/dove-hunting off-season.

It is probably a response (albeit a long time coming) from sensational reports of the 1990s such as those stemming from Operation Rock Cut et al, where even in Reptiles Magazine one could read about the infamous sting catching unscrupulous herpers hauling out coolers full of "Hundreds of Snakes each night!" While the allegations were largely proven false, the printed retractions never get the same attention as the initial press.

The problem with this probability is that legislators think they are actually helping wildlife, when in fact the impact may be at best neutral (no real effect on roadside herp populations due to other means of "take" like getting run over by a car), or at worst even slightly negative (cutting off an increasingly urban populace from an important means of connecting with wildlife).

The solution is informing the people who hold the future of the pastime within their capabilities to grant/take away (from a legal standpoint). HCU-TX has attempted this with lobbying, and appeared to make real progress this year. But I think we need as close as we can get to "hard data" as possible.

Passion must be tempered with rational explanations for why the law doesn't work "as advertised." Pictures are worth a thousand words--foam-board displays such as the plots of voucher specimens and even private collection of specimens cross-reference with roads; explanation of the "off-limits" nature of most of TX land; percentage of land impacted by putting the roads back into play (I posted a couple years back with land area comprising roads and ROW throughout TX to show just how much huntable land we'd lose--anybody still have those numbers?); economic impacts for various small towns, etc.

Dare I say, it just might be beneficial to have HCU-TX raise funds to send numerous state legislators a copy of Alterna Rush? Just because the legislative season is over for now doesn't mean we can't continue the dialogue with our representatives until the next session.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

maxrr Jun 07, 2009 01:17 AM

I love the idea of distributing Alterna Rush to the Legislators! Nice idea chris!

Max

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Snakes to the Max

rwindmann Jun 05, 2009 10:00 PM

Very well put. The whole pomp and circumstance inre the spy vs. spy vibe, well, I find amusing. I think LE does too.

antelope Jun 05, 2009 11:03 PM

Chris McMartin, I totally agree with your assessments. Wish you lived in Texas! Chris Harrison, I will be at the HCU-TX table tomorrow with Todd LaPittus, maybe we could talk. TPWD, members of HCU-TX would love to have the opportunity to open dialogue with you concerning all aspects of this law and how we can work together on it, as stated at the capitol. Come by and say Hi! Chris H. I haven't been alterna hunting this year, or observing in west Texas on the rows, but road cruising anywhere I go is the norm for me. I travel the entire Texas gulf coast for business, so I see the horror of the "sanctuary" every day.
This is simply about getting out there and doing what we love, I don't golf, can't see the interest there, but don't make laws banning others from doing so. This is a sport, and a recreation, something that TPWD states in there program a priority to provide for its' customers. Well, this customer isn't satisfied with not being able to use the non-game permit he purchases every year along with his combo hunting and fishing license. There is no place to publicly hunt herps, dove and quail, yes, small game, yes, even deer.
I work to see this law changed.
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Todd Hughes

Chris_McMartin Jun 06, 2009 07:03 AM

Chris McMartin, I totally agree with your assessments. Wish you lived in Texas!

I'm not living there now, but I am still a resident and I VOTE!

From your message it sounds like perhaps Bonnie's show is in San Antone this weekend? I wish I could get back and see all my friends from HCU and STHA. How is the HCU presence there? Good response?
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

antelope Jun 06, 2009 07:56 AM

We had about 13 people join HCU last show, looking to add to the roster!
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Todd Hughes

brhaco Jun 06, 2009 01:11 PM

Chris, if you had been there in Austin, you would see that this regulation WAS aimed specifically at herpers (I know this isn't apparent in the transcripts, but the way the "face to face" talks went it was readily clear they were determined to leave no loopholes herpers (and only herpers) could fit through!). Why?

Well, I believe that TPW LE wanted to have a tool they could use against herpers if any were causing "problems" as perceived by local landowners or wardens-out-of-state herpers, in particular. These guys aren't stupid-they know that this law is all but unenforceable as written (witness the fact that, in two years, not a single citation has been issued!), But this matters not at all, since its sole purpose was to have an inhibiting effect-which is precisely what has happened. Anyone can tell you that the flow of herpers from outside Texas has slowed to a trickle, and even many Texans are staying at home rather than hitting the cuts.

From the point of view of LE, this ban is a success, since it has greatly reduced what they consider to be a headache caused by a bunch of rather eccentric and (largely non-Texan)reptile freaks...

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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

swwit Jun 07, 2009 12:38 PM

>> Anyone can tell you that the flow of herpers from outside Texas has slowed to a trickle, and even many Texans are staying at home rather than hitting the cuts.
>>
>>From the point of view of LE, this ban is a success, since it has greatly reduced what they consider to be a headache caused by a bunch of rather eccentric and (largely non-Texan)reptile freaks...
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Brad Chambers
>>WWW.HCU-TX.ORG
>>
>>The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I would be in the out of state catagory. If LE considers a drastic cut in revenue a success then they have succeeded. I know that since this rediculous law was passed I have saved myself 4-5 thousand dollars by not making the trip with my kids. Don't get me wrong, I would have liked to make the trip more than save the money but at this point I'm not going to spend all that cash just to be harrassed. I'd love to know how this has effected the local economy which needs it I'm sure.
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Steve W.

bobassetto Jun 07, 2009 06:09 PM

AHHHH......CRAP.....maybe Obama can put a stimulus package together for us

alternater Jun 08, 2009 06:13 PM

Geez Bob, I've sure missed that photo of darth vader. NOT!!!
LOL!

antelope Jun 08, 2009 07:40 PM

Breed that thing Bob so you can get a Luke and Leah!
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Todd Hughes

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