Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I finally produced a Motley!!! Yahoo! I know it is no big deal as the Mot has been around for quite some time, but this morph did not do well for me in the past. I spent top dollar for a pair in 2003, which never reached full adult size and ended up getting sick (they apparently were weak animals). I did not get another Motley (or Hotley in this case) until I did a trade for the sire of this litter in 2006. He is astounding! He is one of the most beautiful Hypo Motleys I have ever seen and has turned out to be a great breeder, to boot. (He also bred a Sharp.)

Now I know the genetics behind the Hypo Motley has been a discussion topic on this forum (though somehow I missed it), but I wanted to hopefully enlighten the topic. I bred a Hotley (Harlequin Orange Tail Motley) to a Sharp Sunglow and got Hotleys, Motleys, Hypos, and no normals (and a Sharp for some reason). (I was very excited to have one of my own female Sharp Sunglows breed for me, by the way.) I was told Jeremy Stone had said in all his Hypo Motley x normal litters, he either got Hypos or Motleys, but no Hypo Motleys. Even when breeding a Hypo Mot to a Hypo Mot, you can never get a Super Hypo Mot or Super Hypo Super Mot. So what is the explanation? Well, lets consider the following:

1) If the genes were on different chromosomes, then you would get Hypo Motleys in a Hypo Motley x normal breeding by simple independent assortment and segregation.

2) If the genes were linked (on the same chromosome), then all the Motleys would be Hypo Motleys in a similar breeding (excluding the possibility of crossover).

3) If the genes were for some reason at the same gene locus (e.g. multiple alleles), then the you can only get Motleys and Hypos- approximately 50% each. And, this is what we are observing.

These genes are acting as if they are located at the same locus, but produce such different phenotypes. This is kind of what happens with the Paradigms where both genes (BW Caramel and Sharp) work in concert with each other to produce an intermediate T Positive phenotype in a codominant manner. Anyways, what do you guys think? Where is our resident geneticist Paul Hollander? I have not put much thought into these breeding outcomes, but it appears it's the only immediate, tangible explanation.

Either way, I am very excited to produce these fine morphs!

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Ron Michelotti

Class Reptilia
www.classreptilia.com

I think motley hypos are incredible, visually pleasing animals that make some of the best sub-adults/adults that I've seen.

Congrats again on the litter!

Great stuff!!!
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Congratulations on your long deserved Motley breeding success!!! That Hotley is very very nice. It looks to have really nice uniformed patterns and the color is really amazing for a new born!

To top it all off they're all het for Sharp...WoW!!!

Congrats on your good year so far!!!

Chaz Neely
constrictors@comcast.net

So your Hotley was also het for sharp albino?

but we got a normal Sharp Albino. We should not have gotten a Sharp, nor a normal, and we got both! I am not sure what happened or the specific mechanism is as to how it's possible. The Sharp Sunglow was not with a Sharp, or a het, so we can rule out sperm retention.

Something to ponder...
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Ron Michelotti

Class Reptilia
www.classreptilia.com

Congrats Ron on an awesome litter! Lets see more pics of the parents and babies. Now, you just need to breed one of those hypo motleys het Sharp to a paradigm!

He is blood red these days.

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Ron Michelotti

Class Reptilia
www.classreptilia.com

Here is the Motley half of the litter. It is not a great pic (bad lighting, flash, bad photgrapher). I do not have a litter pic with the Sunglow girl. I found them in the morning before work, so I pulled her out to deal with everyone until I got home. She is so thin- I was suprised to get as many babies as I did.

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Ron Michelotti

Class Reptilia
www.classreptilia.com

You're having quite the year. All of these recent babies must be keeping both you and Kyle very busy. But in a good way. Those are some great looking motleys, and het sharp!!!! to boot. What was the final count?

Congrats again,

Jay

They look great Ron ,extremely nice results !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

Congrats!!!!

More pics and what were the stats on the litter?
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

The final count:
4 Hotley het Sharps
6 Motley het Sharps
13 Poss Super Hypo het Sharps
1 Sharp
3 slugs
0 Premies or Stills

I hope to have some more Motley het Sharps in a few weeks- we will have to see.
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Ron Michelotti

Class Reptilia
www.classreptilia.com

Ron
Looks like your on a roll. Congrats.
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Richard Ceniceros

Hmmmm, very interesting. I to have heard when breeding a Hypo Mot, you can't get a Hypo Mot unless the other parent has one or both of those genes. And that all the babies would either be Hypo OR Motley, not both and not neither

From you first post.....

1) If the genes were on different chromosomes, then you would get Hypo Motleys in a Hypo Motley x normal breeding by simple independent assortment and segregation.

2) If the genes were linked (on the same chromosome), then all the Motleys would be Hypo Motleys in a similar breeding (excluding the possibility of crossover).

3) If the genes were for some reason at the same gene locus (e.g. multiple alleles), then the you can only get Motleys and Hypos- approximately 50% each. And, this is what we are observing.

These genes are acting as if they are located at the same locus, but produce such different phenotypes. This is kind of what happens with the Paradigms where both genes (BW Caramel and Sharp) work in concert with each other to produce an intermediate T Positive phenotype in a codominant manner. Anyways, what do you guys think? Where is our resident geneticist Paul Hollander? I have not put much thought into these breeding outcomes, but it appears it's the only immediate, tangible explanation.

And your results....

The final count:
4 Hotley het Sharps
6 Motley het Sharps
13 Poss Super Hypo het Sharps
1 Sharp
3 slugs
0 Premies or Stills

The "paradox" is the lone Sharp baby. Implies two things......

1) your Hotley is also het Sharp

2) The supposition that Hypo and Motley share the same locus is wrong since one baby does not have either gene.

One obvious line of questions on the Sharp Sunglow, was she a first time breeder female and was she ever with another male that has a Sharp gene or two? If you can rule out sperm retention and multiple sires that leaves only one likely explanation.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

a freak occurance (genetic anomoly so to speak) and something altogeter different. I have seen many people over the years get these double homos/dual visuals, or visuals they should not have gotten. Some people attribute these aforementioned scenarios to "the _____ must be a het and you had extremely bad odds." In many of these cases I have to disagree and it is some other meiotic, nondisjunction, fertilization, or partho scenarios we do not quite understand. My female Sunglow is a virgin, so sperm retention is ruled out. The biology on these old world snakes is not black and white all the time and there are other mechanisms/errors at play (other than the simple particualte nature of genes). To be honest, not much research has been done on these snakes- and all that is known is from the experience of us herpers and the simple probablity rules applied to such breedings.
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Ron Michelotti

Class Reptilia
www.classreptilia.com

Ron,

I have two litter mates to your male. Give Steve a call. Your males father (Brocks male)was a poss. het Sharps that he never proved out,I believe.
I think you may want to play the lottery tonight...<g>

Congratulations
Link

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Regards,
Buddy

>>I have two litter mates to your male. Give Steve a call. Your males father (Brocks male)was a poss. het Sharps that he never proved out,I believe.

Hmmmm, That makes a lot of sense. While random acts of mutation and other more complicated factors that our simple mendelian concepts of genetics are there and do happen. Most often the ultimate explanation is the simplest one.

Any way you look at it - SCORE!!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

a poss het Kahl, not Sharp. The Motley father that produced the Hotley I own never proved out when bred to a Kahl Sunglow.

I also agree the simplest explanation is often the easiest- it abides by all laws of nature. I always tell my students Nature is lazy and the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Cladistics and phylogenetics even use a parsimony rule, which exemplifies this concept, when constucting phylogenetic trees (i.e. retracing evolutionary history).
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Ron Michelotti

Class Reptilia
www.classreptilia.com

I am NOT saying this in specific to this instance of an albino popping up, just in general. Although there is a remote (very remote) possibility it applies here as well.

One HUGE problem lurking out there is animals that are not known to be het Kahl or Sharp and actually are. Could be from a pos het breeding to something else, A pos het to pos het breeding where one did not prove etc. etc. etc. And those babies NOT identified as possibly het. Just one of those animals bred into the wrong project could possibly throw a huge monkey wrench into things.

A hypothetical example....

Joe breeder is a responsible breeder acquires a Motley pos het Kahl and breeds it to a virgin female DH Sunglow he bought from a third breeder (unknown to him the DH female is actually a Hypo pos het that really is not a het, got mixed up somewhere along the line). So Joe breeds his Motley pos het Kahl to his "DH Sunglow" and of course no albino's pop out so he naturally assumes the Mot did not prove out.

Next year he breeds his Motley (actually het Kahl) to a Sharp Sunglow to make TH Motley Sunglows and DH Albino Motley (all Sharp line), Unkowingly making some of them het Kahls in the process. See where I'm going yet???

Each and every one of those DH and TH animals that got the Kahl gene is a ticking timebomb with two fuses.

First fuse is getting paired up with another animal also carrying a hidden Kahl gene. Since it's a known het Sharp, those albino babies would have to all be Sharp's right? WRONG.

Second fuse is half of the next generation will also be ticking timebombs.

With folks breeding sibs sometimes or father to daughter etc. It's even more likely.

Real world example, Brian Sharp bred a het Kahl to one of his albinos resulting in 17 normal babies. He told me they were all sold to the pet trade, I heard from someone else he kept the females. Either way, there are animals out there with both genes!!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

possible, but also highly improbable. We first need to "prove" the Hypo Motleys can only produce Hypos and Mots (or generate Hypo and Motley gametes). I am expecting a litter from the same Hotley bred to a Sharp (not het) in less than one month. If I get all Hypos and Motleys (along with all the other breedings I have heard of similar results), I say it is pretty safe to assume what to expect from Hypo Mots and my Hotley is not het Sharp. She should throw a litter of around 30. With this stated, lets not forget a Hypo Mot should not produce a normal and getting a Normal Sharp is highly suspicious.

I know numerous people (including myself) who have sold their poss hets to the pet trade, but it would take the right kind of unknowing consumer/hobbyist to make the right pairing (normally petshop customers want pets and know little about this industry) to even have the possibility of producing a visual. It is a lot of "if, ands, or maybe's" in these scenarios which make them unlikely. I also have a well documented history on all the animals I keep (2-3 generations back) and only deal with well known breeders and/or hobbyists (to which their animals rarely come from petshops). (I know some of the Matriarch's of these big projects come into our industry this way, but they go back several documented generations). All this is possible, but it is highly unlikely this poss het ended up in my hands.

Thank you for the dialogue and the skeptisism. I like when people get these old wheels turing. We definitely have to get these Hypo Mot genetics squared away and set in the literature. It should be old news by now.
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Ron Michelotti

Class Reptilia
www.classreptilia.com

Totally agreed on the hypo Mot thing, should be enough pairings this year to settle the debate once and for all.

Back to the Kahl/Sharp thing....

Prime example is at the top of this forum, guy put his female (undescribed as to her genetics) to a Coral Albino (not stated as Kahl but I believe all "Coral Albino's are Kahl strain) Further on he also stated he ha dput his pos super Salmon het Sharp to the same female for a few days but saw nothing. As luck would have it the Pos Super Salmon het Sharp was the father and did prove out Super. Point being had ther been any non Salmons in the litter would that mean the Pos Super did not prove and all babies are 50% het Sharp or could that be a mixed litter with All the Salmons being 50% het Sharp and the non Salmons being Het Kahl? Or even worse if the pos Super was not Super then the non-Salmons could be either 50% het Sharp or het Kahl.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Congrats Ron, that is a very nice litter.

Marcus

hey ron congrats on a very cool litter! did i interpet correctly that you got a "sharp" albino in the mix as well?

Congrats Ron!!! Nice first Motley litter het Sharp! Give me a call when you get a chance.

Brock

What a cool litter to have . And a bonus Sharp baby as icing on the cake.
I'm wondering if the Sunglow female was an Orangetail Sunglow, or Salmon? Because the Hypo Mots obviously got the Hypo from the Sunglow side since the Hotley Male either throws a Hypos or Mots - right?

As far as getting an Albino in the mix ~ it seems that there is a small "gap" in the Motley gene that occasionally leaves room for error . We've also seen the stillborn "Red Devil" that goes against the Hypo Motley genetic understandings . And also the first "Purple Patternless" babies that had the Super look without breeding Mot x Mot . Another very wierd Hypo Motley litter was Celia Chien's Hurricane Hypos with very odd results - I'd love to see them now.

Again , very exciting litter that I'd be jumping for joy to have had.
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Snake room janitor

concerning the Hypo Motley genetics, the Hypo Mots in this litter would have to be Harlequin line Salmon Motleys from the Ihle Salmon line Sharp Sunglow dame. Some may think this genetic stuff is all weird and convoluted, but I think of it as better appreciating the mechanisms responsible for heredity. Cool!
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Ron Michelotti

Class Reptilia
www.classreptilia.com

comments and insight. The morph world is not all about dominance, recessiveness, codominance, and incomplete dominance which we want it to be. Once you investigate what is going on at the cellular and molecular levels of sexual recombination and mutation, you come to respect the inner workings of the nature of heredity. As I continue to learn more about understanding genes, gamete formation, and random acts of fertilization, I realize how we overly simplify what is happening by overextending simple mendelian genetics to predict the outcomes of our breedings. Remember, we are working with oversimplified models and statistical probability. Sometimes, and not so uncommon, something happens where we must delve deeper into what appears to be random chance occurences. It is no real mystery, it just requires some thought and a little bit of research. All life abides by natural laws of science- we must be detectives and search out the truth by the clues left behind.

With this said, I am still stoked about my Hypo Mot het SHARPS!

Thanks again and good luck to all this season.
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Ron Michelotti

Class Reptilia
www.classreptilia.com

Makes me wish I did some more pairings this season!

Congrats on your "first" litter (Motleys of course).

Ryan DeCaro

Great litter...on your way to sharp hotglows!! -)