Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Greetings,
I am new to the Forums here. I have a few questions that I hope can be answered for me. I have been keeping various species of snake for several years, most of them have been the Srub python and the Green Anaconda. Some nice and some not so nice. I am not going to ask if I should or should not keep venomous. I believe that the keeper is the only one who can answer that for him or herself. Only you can know if you are ready. However being that some are more dangerous than others I decided to see what is good to start with. I am looking into rear fanged to start with, mangrove and then move to a copperhead for my first front fanged. I have young children so my safety is of the upmost priority and concern. I want no accidents nor do I need an escapie and have the possibility of bad press adding any more damage to our all ready rising herp issues and regulations. I have looked into venomoid as a possibility for my childrens safety however after dooing much research have decided to pass. Not only unethical but too many possibilities of the ownknown,. I do not want to teach myself bad habbits knowing that in a last ditch effort I can always just grab it to retrive it, better to just learn the proper techniques and leave no question on what to do. I realize the best way to learn these techniques is with a trainer or mentor but that is not an option for me at this time. I have read that to learn with fast non venomous like racers or coachwhips. I really do not want to own something that I have no interest in keeping but only as a teaching aid. However if that is the best way then so be it, I want to keep eyelash vipers but need to learn the proper handling techniques and use of the locking hide bax and the hook. Do not want to handle them just keep them to enjoy for what they are,. I am looking to get some positive feedback on keepers of venomous and what may be the best to start with or non venomous species to learn to be able to responsibly keep these reptiles. My apologies for the long post just wanted to give a little background as to why the posting.

Peace..............

If history holds true, you'll get a variety of responses to your question. Some will be helpful, others will be condescending. For some reason, many on the forum don't like these kinds of questions. I'm by no means an experienced venomous keeper but I'll tell how I arrived at my decision to keep venomous snakes.

I live in rural southern Georgia and have had the opportunity of coming into contact with all of our native venomous species over the years. I have been keeping snakes, mainly the big constrictors (I've had my share of run-ins with anacondas, scrub pythons and African pythons) for almost 18 years. I received my first venomous, a mid-sized EDB, after an acquaintance captured it and brought it to me. I kept it for a few weeks and then turned it loose. That happened several times over the next few years -- catch a wild EDB, keep it for a little while, feed it a time or two and then release it. That taught me how to deal with venomous snakes slowly. If I ever got nervous or uneasy, I simply turned the animal loose. You can't do that with a mangrove snake or some other exotic species. After a few more years, I felt like I was ready to keep a venomous snake long-term. The opportunity presented itself when another friend brought me a small timber rattler. That was in 1997. I took the snake home, offered it a pre-killed mouse and it ate it quickly. I've had the snake ever since; it's now a fat and happy (yet irascible) three-footer. In the interim, I've had a number of other snakes come through the doors of my snake house, mainly EDBs. At the moment, I have that timber, two small EDBs and a nice cottonmouth. I have native venomous for two reasons: I don't need a permit and my ER, which is less than 10 minutes from home, knows how to treat a native venomous bite and has anti-venin on-hand. The ER director also knows I have the snakes and is aware that I could come in at any time with a bite. Luckily, we've had no close calls.

I said all that to say this: You'll know when it's time. As far as the best "starter hot," I'd say get something that is generally easy to care for and something that your local medical center knows how to treat. Copperheads aren't bad, though I haven't had good luck with them. That timber has been fairly easy to deal with and the cottonmouth is very laid back. The two EDBs aren't bad, either. The rattlers eat well, shed well and aren't any trouble.

I got the timber in 2007, not 1997. Oops.

ya as robert pointed out earlier your the only one to know if your ready. cuz if you have to ask yourself prolly not. I live in kansas and I myself dont keep any hot snakes because of the safety issue with my children although I do go out and collect water moccasins, copperheads, prarie rattlers, and the occassional timber rattlers. ive been doing that since i was a kid. and the closest thing to a hot snake thats non venomous would be an amazon tree boa. There strike is as fast as a timber rattlers or faster. and they hurt when they stick ya. but it would be a good snake to train on. but good luck to ya and your decision!

Dude I hope you were only kidding about the amazon's! Do you even keep hotts yourself?

To the original poster:

You sound level headed and I don't think you'll have any trouble. Keep doing your research! Seems your main interest is in arboreals, most of them will ride a hook and aren't to bad to deal with. Still gotta be careful as many of them will openly strike at the air! I hate when people get into how toxic each animal is because the bottom line is any of them can kill you given the right circumstances.

Ask yourself this question: Am I willing to be bitten by a venomous snake? I have been working with venomous for around 6 years now, that's everything from copperheads to mamba's. One day I will be bitten, "it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when". It's just like anything, if you do something long enough something is going to go wrong eventually. Don't get complacent, ever! Trust me it happens and it can end very badly.

Good luck!
-----
John Light

Greetings,
You hit the nail on the head. That is another reason I am so hesitant to venture into venomous. Any thing can, does and will happen. I have been keeping non's for approx 6-7 years now. Mostly scrub's. I did have a w/c tiger rat and w/c bar neck that were very very aggressive. They never got me, but kept me on my toes. It was not for lack of trying on their part. I have read some good comments from my post and thank everyone who took the time to contribute and not just berate me. Golden eyelash's are my interest and if I do move into hot's that is were I will venture. However I will continue research and educate myself. I also need to find out about anti-ven. And if the local hospitals keep it for exotic's or just for native species. I just would like to add one comment to who stated about re-lease into the wild. I just want to state that I would never be as irresponsible as to release any unwanted animal into the wild.

peace...

I agree with the anti-venom research. You need to make sure that you have access to it 24 hours a day. And your local hospitals usually will only stock local snake anti. Also make sure whichever hospital you would like to be treated at has a doctor that will know how to treat a venomous snake bite and you should write down standard operating procedures in case of a bite. Dependent upon the snake you may not be competent to help with your treatment. Just some things to think about.

Thanks
Mike
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1.1 Cal. Kings
1.0 Ball Python
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet Python
0.0.2 African House Snakes
0.0.1 Oketee Corn Snake
0.1 Salmon Boa Constrictor
0.0.1 Marbled Salamander
0.0.1 Japanese Fire-Bellied Newt
0.2 Labs

In my post i said I dont keep them for saftey with my kids. and the amazons I have had were pretty fast. I had one that was a picky eater and would only eat birds and snatched one in mid flight many times. but that was my opinion if you guys dont agree than thats fine. I only deal with hots three months out of the year not on a day to day basis all year long like you guys.

You should ask yourselves some tough questions:

1. Is it legal?

2. Why do I want this animal?

3. Are the risks to myself and my family justified?

4. Am I generally responsible enough to ensure that the potential for escape and snakebite are absolutely minimized?

5. Can I invest in expensive, locking cages?

6. Have I received adequate mentoring and training with venomous snakes and their husbandry?

7. Am I a risk taker?

8. Does my curiosity about venomous snakes extend to a desire to experience a snakebite?

I think you really need to be very self critical before you bring a venomous snake into your home. I think its usually an unnecessary risk. Also in most states its illegal to keep a snake for any period of time then release it. If you are going to get a snake you should commit to to keeping it.

Good luck.

Nice to see a well thought out question. Sounds like you've been considering all of the angles and the bottom line is that only you know if you are ready. Unfortunately, many who think they are ready really aren't but by the sound of it, my guess is that you have done your homework. Working with a species you are interested in is very important. Although I normally don't recommend keeping exotic venomous unless you have access to antivenom, eyelash vipers are actually a very easy snake to keep and to manage. They ride a hook very easily and a fairly straightforward to keep. Just make sure you have the proper equipment - proper length hook with a narrow end for ease in manipulating small arboreals, long hemostats for feeding and for removing sheds, debris, water bowl, etc.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Greetings,
>> I am new to the Forums here. I have a few questions that I hope can be answered for me. I have been keeping various species of snake for several years, most of them have been the Srub python and the Green Anaconda. Some nice and some not so nice. I am not going to ask if I should or should not keep venomous. I believe that the keeper is the only one who can answer that for him or herself. Only you can know if you are ready. However being that some are more dangerous than others I decided to see what is good to start with. I am looking into rear fanged to start with, mangrove and then move to a copperhead for my first front fanged. I have young children so my safety is of the upmost priority and concern. I want no accidents nor do I need an escapie and have the possibility of bad press adding any more damage to our all ready rising herp issues and regulations. I have looked into venomoid as a possibility for my childrens safety however after dooing much research have decided to pass. Not only unethical but too many possibilities of the ownknown,. I do not want to teach myself bad habbits knowing that in a last ditch effort I can always just grab it to retrive it, better to just learn the proper techniques and leave no question on what to do. I realize the best way to learn these techniques is with a trainer or mentor but that is not an option for me at this time. I have read that to learn with fast non venomous like racers or coachwhips. I really do not want to own something that I have no interest in keeping but only as a teaching aid. However if that is the best way then so be it, I want to keep eyelash vipers but need to learn the proper handling techniques and use of the locking hide bax and the hook. Do not want to handle them just keep them to enjoy for what they are,. I am looking to get some positive feedback on keepers of venomous and what may be the best to start with or non venomous species to learn to be able to responsibly keep these reptiles. My apologies for the long post just wanted to give a little background as to why the posting.
>>
>>
>>Peace..............
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

i agree with what most people said, eyelashes are not to bad to deal with. you are the only one that knows if you can handle keeping hots, just dont get anything too crazy lol.

i dont agree with amazon tree boas being the closest thing to a hot, and sure dont agree with a strike from an amazon tree boa being as fast if not faster then a rattle snake. i have had 5 amazons all where quick to bite over and over again but i found the strike of them to very slow and easy to dodge. nothing like a rattler.

I would suggest getting a venomous snake that is found where you live. Then you could just let it go if you need to. I have been keeping hots for over 45 years. I think that one of the easiest to keep and most interesting rattlers is the sidewinder. They are small and easy to handle. For many years, before all this commercial snake catching stuff was available. I used to handle sidewinders with a wire coat hanger, bent to form a handle. Get a local venomous for your first hot.

Just be aware if you were not already, mangrove snakes are not always the most "friendly" snakes. Just keep on your toes if getting one or dealing with them.

Mike
-----
1.1 Cal. Kings
1.0 Ball Python
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet Python
0.0.2 African House Snakes
0.0.1 Oketee Corn Snake
0.1 Salmon Boa Constrictor
0.0.1 Marbled Salamander
0.0.1 Japanese Fire-Bellied Newt
0.2 Labs

I agree you seem to know what you're dealing with. With venomous snakes the important thing is not to get lulled into a false sense of security. Many vipers seem to be so laid back and will just sit curled in a corner of the cage and the thought crosses the mind that surely it would be fine to just reach in and pull out the water bowl by hand... but you can't do it. Snakes are just unpredictable and you have to treat it like it could snap at any moment.

I'm fairly new to hots as well. I've caught copperheads for a while and found them pretty laid back. The good thing about them is they are small and therefore don't have the strike range of the larger cottonmouths or rattlesnakes. Right now I'm keeping a western cottonmouth and a timber rattler. The cottonmouth is extremely laid back and I've never seen it strike at anything. It barely strikes at the mice I feed it (dead). I think they make good first hots as well as copperheads, though go with a smaller one. Like was previously said, keep a native venomous as a first one so you can let it go if you have second thoughts.

The rattlensnake I have is nearly as laid back as the cottonmouth. It has never struck at anything but mice (but boy is that a fast strike) but will coil up and rattle if disturbed. They are a bit faster moving than copperheads and cottonmouths from my experience, so they keep you on your toes a bit more when you are handling them with hooks. The one I have is only around 2 feet but a large one would be harder to deal with.

I choose to keep venomous for a couple different reasons. A simple one is that I find them fascinating, but this wouldn't normally be enough to make me put myself at risk. I mainly keep them because I give educational talks to the public and having the snakes there to point to is much more beneficial than pictures. That way they can compare coloration, body shape, thickness, and size. So the snakes have a purpose.

One recommendation I would have is to make sure you have the tools to handle the snake WITHOUT having to touch it. Though on tv the experts are always pinning the heads, this is very dangerous because if you are unsure of how to do it the snake can wriggle loose and turn and bite you. Even the scrape of one fang can be deadly. To remove my snakes from their tanks for cleaning I use a hook along with a small net that has a long bag. That way I just maneuver the snake into the net and I can twist it up and keep it in there until I'm done cleaning. This works well so far, but I'm also probably going to get some tongs for these purposes.

For getting experience... I don't really thing aggressive nonvenomous snakes have given me any practice dealing with venomous ones because I'm so used to getting bitten. Sure I can handle them without getting bitten, but there's always the comfort that if I need to I can just grab it. And you don't have that with venomous snakes. You could try a rearfanged snake, though I don't think most of these have the same movement patterns as vipers. They are more similar to elapids I think. But that is just my opinion from the little knowledge that I have on them.

Again I am not an expert but thought you might like another opinion.
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1.0 sumatran short tailed python
0.1 ball python
0.1 rosy boa
0.1 corn snake
1.0 mexican king snake
1.1 buttermilk racers
0.0.2 broadbanded watersnakes
0.0.1 yellow bellied watersnake
0.0.1 ribbon snake
0.0.1 western cottonmouth
0.0.1 rattlesnake
1.0 broadhead skink
1.0 bearded dragon
1.0 leopard gecko

I wouldn't suggest Eyelash Vipers are easy captives by any stretch of the meaning. Most are poor feeders,do not adapt to handling well,and have extreme environmental requirements(i.e. daily misting,humidity related health issues...).An Agkistrodon contortrix(copperhead) makes a fine 1st hot. They are nice to look at,low maintenance,and their venom will not kill you(not that an eyelash viper's bite would either, but I digress), usually.Make sure to buy a baby captive bred specimen,pref. not a Southern as these babies can have feeding issues in the beginning.Make sure it has fed at least 3X voluntarily and buy from a reputable breeder.Enjoy!