Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I unfortunately came home to a dead female at 130 days P.O.S. She seemed agitated when I left for work this morning. I figured she'd have the babies while I was gone. I unfortunately could not stay home today, although I highly doubt I could have changed anything.

I got home and checked on her. I don't usually touch her, but tonight I reached in to pet her. She wasn't moving and I realized she had passed. I didn't know how long she had been gone. I felt I had no choice but to try to get the babies, just in case some were still living.

None of the babies survived. Actually, none of them seemed to be ready for birth. The second picture shows a dark spot on an Albino. This is actually greenish in color. They were all very fat. Some of them were out of the sac. This may have been from the trauma of working them out.

I am obviously very upset over the loss of my girl and the babies, but this is the second female I've lost in the last four days. I had another female give birth to 15 slugs and two stillborn. I tried feeding her the day after the delivery. She showed absolutely no interest in eating. I waited a couple days and tried again with the same result. She died Friday night. These two were kept in the same conditions as two other females that had healthy babies and are both doing well. The temps were 85 on the high side and 70ish on the low. They had water accessible. This was the third breeding for the one that died Friday. It was the first for the one that died tonight.

I'm going on and on, but trying to give as much information as possible. The common denomonator for these two girls is they were bred to the same male. The other two were bred to other males. I doubt that the male is the reason, but does anyone have any idea why this would happen? Should I be concerned about using the male in the future? Being that the mother of the pictured babies was at 130 days, it seems that they'd be chomping at the bit to escape. It seems wierd that they aren't completely developed.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

My only advice is to bump your temps several degrees. My warm side is 90-92 and my cool side is low 80's during the day. At night, warm side is low 80's and cool side is high 70's.

That could be a possible explanation for the underdeveloped babies, even at 130 days POS. They need warmth to develop properly.

The male could be suspect, not sure what advice to offer on him...

jb
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Jonathan Brady

I am sorry to hear of your loss. I would have to agree with Johnathen your temps do sound kind of low. I know what you are going threw because I lost my female this season. But it is something that everyone of us as breeders have had to go threw. Remember her and dont let it get you down. Once again sorry for your loss.
Eric

I agree with what Jonathon said, maybe warmer temps could have helped. I keep the warm side around 90-92 and cool side 80-82 during gestation. My females will only occasionally move to the cool side, maybe once or twice a week. They seem to park themsleves on the warm side and their surface temperature measured with a "temp gun" is a pretty constant 88 degree F.

I doubt the male's contribution was the root cause for the deaths. He clearly did his job and produced viable sperm. My guess would be that the environmental conditions being close, but not optimal, could have been a contributing factor.

For the female that died after delivering, did you by any chance open her up? It's never any fun, but that's how we learn. She could have had retained ova or even full term babies. I had the same thing happen to me earlier this year. Full term litter from a previously proven fremale, with no apparent problems, but she died a week and a half later. Inside her were 3 slugs and one full term baby that had broken out of the ambiotic sac inside the mother that she had failed to deliver. It was clear that the baby had been alive and died inside her. I assume these "retained products of reproduction" lead to her demise. Let's face it, maybe the retained ovum could have been tolerated, but certainly a retained dead baby could create some health issues (probably bacterial).

Anyway, sorry for rambling, and your loses. It just reminds us that reproducing (for all animals, really) does not come without signficant risks.

Best of luck,

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

Sorry to hear about your loss, definitely depressing! Although you can't let it be!

On the plus side, you do still have the male, although in question but probably not to blame... It's probably a problem with your temps, I'd adjust your hot spot next year...(just a suggestion) I always keep mine at 90 to 95, sometimes higher depending on the cage and location of cage...

Better luck to you next year and like the song says, Don't give up!

Chaz Neely

What an terrible experience. How old were your females? that green may be a sign of bacterial growth/decay. Did any others show this sign? How about with the other female that died?

Sorry to hear that, and yeah, your temps are a little to low. I have tacked gestational time in BRB's and raising my temps 2 degrees did equate to a shorter gestation. I'd assume the opposite to be true, cooler would take longer to gestate and could be the root cause of your loss.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I live in So Cal, and the average room temp is in the mid 80s usually. I let the heat get in during the day. Unfortunately it has been cool here much of the last few weeks and that may have played a role. I have everyone in Visions with Heatwaves. The high can be above 90. I hadn't seen them directly over them for a while. They were on newspaper. I always add a little more paper over the heater.

The females were 12 and 8.

The green (possible bacteria)was visible on one other baby.

with the money invested pales in comparison to the risks that our animals take

Looks like the probable cause has already been identified so all I will say is keep your chin up and move forward, life is full of these uncertainties and a positive attitude will carry you through

Condolences.
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

I am sooo sorry for your losses. I can't imagine the pain you must feel right now.
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Cheers,
Jessica
10.15 Ball Pythons; 8.9 Corn Snakes; 0.0.1 Green Tree Python
2.2 Jungle Carpet Pythons
6.6.1 Bci
3.0 Crazy Dogs and 2.0 cats
Some Tropical Fish
...........and growing!

I'm Surprised no one has suggested a professional take a look at your females.
While you might learn something from a dissection

The Trained Herp vet can perform a Necropsy and pathology and give you actual detailed medical results and explanations.

1)The Vet with a trained eye will know what they are looking at
While you may over look a small hemorrhage etc...

2)Finally the pathology report can detail viral or bacterial possibilities among other possibilities

Your male can be ruled in or ruled out as a factor.

Although there is not always a certain spot on explanation
at least several factors can be ruled out.

This can allow you to concentrate on the experience and
intelligence of the other posters answers and suggestions

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

I think it's probably too late now as time is often of the essence. You need to keep the animal moist and refrigerated (NOT FROZEN) and contact one of the university labs as soon as possible if you want a necropsy done.

www.vetmed.ufl.edu/patientcare/labs/clinpath/documents/fees.pdf
vbs.psu.edu/adl/services/tests/padls2008fees.pdf
^^^ and many other labs other than those

Gross assessment on your part is great, but abnormalities are often missed as Lar said by the untrained eye and nothing can compare to a histopathology performed by a veterinary pathologist. When we do just gross necropsies at work we open up all the major blood vessels, heart, etc and it takes a long time and quite often we never find a reason, but pathology reports really help with an answer. I wish you the best of luck with the rest of your breeding season. You know the saying, when it rains it pours, and I'm sorry it's pouring saddness around your house, but things will look up. Just hang in there.

wished I had something to add other than my condolences.
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Ty Hege
Rat Race Solutions
www.ratracesolutions.com

First, I am so very sorry to hear about the loss of your two girls and of this litter.

I was surprised no one mentioned it, but I remember hearing that the green staining you are seeing on some of the albinos is from the gallbladder. I've heard other stories of people finding their dead snakes and there being a green stain, in that same area I see in your pics. I wish I could remember why it happens. Just wanted to add that bit of info, that it might have been from the gall and not a bacteria. Of course, without it being tested I can't say for sure.

my condolences,
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow