Reptile & Amphibian Forums

what morph is this snake? Also how much larger does she need to be before she can breed? The pics were taken in a shoe box...

some pics hopefully

close up of head and tial

It is either an amel(albino) or creamsickle corn (amel corn x emorys ratsnake). Nice looking critter!!

no post
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

I would have to agree with the others. Most likely she is a creamsicle.

Personally i dont know why people buy snakes not knowing the history of them but to each their own.

General rule of thumb is 300 grams 3 feet long or 3 years of age for breeding
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Dan S.
Crotalus & Company-- Captive Bred Reptiles

Herplink-- Reptile Link Exchange

>>
>>Personally i dont know why people buy snakes not knowing the history of them but to each their own.
>>

Sometimes it's simple..
You see the snake, you like it, you buy it.
First "corn" I bought when I got back into corns was a creamsicle....BUT...The store said it was an amel (actually they said red albino).
It wasn't.
I knew how to care for corn snakes and rat rat snakes. I just didn't know the "morphs". Never had the need to learn until I got that little cream. So, you can't really say "you need to read and learn as much as possible about a species before you buy it. I knew the natural history and proper husbandry so there really wasn't anything I needed to "study" before I bought her.
Not to mention the simple fact that a lot of places that sell snakes do not have people learned enough to educate customers.
AND for some people, these places are thier only source of reptiles.
so...don't be so quick to judge what people know or need to know, you do not need to know the genetic lineage of a corn snake or amel from ghost or anery from okeetee to be capable of owning and caring for a corn snake.

definitely looks like a creamsicle to me

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I bought her as a "Creamsicle Corn snake (Okeetee)" from Don Soderberg at South Mountain Reptiles, I was posting this because I'm not sure if she's just a regular creamsicle or a creamsicle okeetee, she looks like a regular creamsicle to me I'm not sure what markers show that she's a okeetee corn. I was concerned because I've seen a few post on this forum over the last few years of individuals who purchased corns from Don that did not develop/look like the morph they purchased when the snakes colors fully came in.

Albino and creamsickle Okeetees are also known as "reverse" Okeetees and are generally noted for their wider and bolder than average white bands that encircle the blotches (the way normal okees have wider and bolder black bands encircling the blotches). However, much diversification is seen in these morphs/any morph and there is no guarantee you will get a "screamer" even though the parents are great representatives of the morph and your animal has the genetics to produce some screamers/prime examples of said morph.

>>I bought her as a "Creamsicle Corn snake (Okeetee)" from Don Soderberg at South Mountain Reptiles, I was posting this because I'm not sure if she's just a regular creamsicle or a creamsicle okeetee, she looks like a regular creamsicle to me I'm not sure what markers show that she's a okeetee corn. I was concerned because I've seen a few post on this forum over the last few years of individuals who purchased corns from Don that did not develop/look like the morph they purchased when the snakes colors fully came in.

the previous post hit the nail on the head.
Not every snake turns out to be a perfect example of the morph.
The parents will determine the genetics but the actual "look" is hit or miss.
By the way...If you bought the snake from Don Soderberg as a creamsicle okeetee then that is exactly what you have...a creamsicle okeetee.
I don't know where you heard anything negative about Don but I can guarantee it either cam from someone who doesn't know what they are talking about or someone who is just trying to boost themselves by putting Don down.
Don is one of the biggest and most trustworthy names in the cornsnake world.
His name and reputation are much more important then the cost of a creamsicle. Absolutely no way he would risk either by selling a snake as anything other then what it is.
one from Don

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Very well stated Jimmy, I was thinking the EXACT same things and couldn't have stated it any better or agree more with both of your posts.
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Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com

I have to agree on this one. Don's as honest as they come. He has been truly an inspiration to me and I couldn't EVER see him selling a snake as something that it is not.

You have to understand that there is variation within morphs and that this variation can often be IMPOSSIBLE to determine when the snake is sold as a hatchling.

It has been a long time since I have spoken to Don. But what struck me most about the man is how positive he is. I had a couple of phone conversations with him...been a couple of years ago now....and he honestly convinced me that I could also succeed. And I don't think that he was even trying to do that, we were just talking snakes. It is very obvious that he truly loves what he is doing.

Also, in a business deal that we had a couple of years ago, Don made a simple mistake. One that was so minor that I would not have had any problem in simply overlooking it and not thinking anything less of him. Don did a major OVERKILL in fixing this mistake. I never forgot about it.

Last season I made the exact same mistake with a customer. I did exactly what Don did for me....I gave up a snake that I was planning to keep as a breeder. Without Don's example I don't know if I would have found it within myself to do this.

Trust me, he's not going to sell you something that is not what it is. Don is truly one of the good guys.

Well, I am glad you guys came out more directly in defense of Don. I was being a bit more diplomatic so as not to "stir the waters" and have my post deleted or something. But I agree that Don's animals and genetics are some of the best out there and go hand in hand with his integrity. Most of my animals today are directly or indirectly associated with Dons stock and I have no complaints.

KevinM

"I bought her as a "Creamsicle Corn snake (Okeetee)" from Don Soderberg at South Mountain Reptiles"

Did you buy her advertised as a Creamsicle okeetee DIRECTLY from Don?

"I was concerned because I've seen a few post on this forum over the last few years of individuals who purchased corns from Don that did not develop/look like the morph they purchased when the snakes colors fully came in."

IF you bought it from Don directly, have you talked with Don about your concerns or just came out in public first? Either way, I can't imagine that he sells thousands of corns each year and has maybe 2-3 complaints a year...geez

Like Draybar said, I think maybe someone trying to look "big" at SMR's expense.

dc

I ordered her from cornsnakes.net Don's site and her documentation from him says creamsicle okeetee. The reason why I've questioned if she's just a normal creamsicle is because I've seen pics of regular/standard creamsicles that also have wide white bands. Like I stated I've read a few posts, I think 3 over a few years, on this kingsnake.com corn snake forum, in which people posted pics of their snakes (like I did) and asked what others thought the morph was- for one or two of the posts the snakes really did not resemble the morph- I think one was a bloodred that still resembled an amelanistic/albino corn as a young adult I'm guessing it was probably a het bloodred breeding..., and another post I remember was about a sunglow or sunkissed.

I'm not trying to attack him in any way and neither were the posts by others who questioned the morph/appearance of their snakes. I know mistakes happen and are very limited, but to determine if the snake holds the genes/genetic make up of the morph they'd have to be bred and reproduce offspring which is time consuming and unfortunate for those one or two owners out of thousands. I realize questioning the morph does imply some sense of negativity but Don has a good reputation so if he happened to make a mistake it wouldn't ruin him or his business.

First, thanks for all the nice things said on my behalf.
What you must understand is that morphs like Okeetee and Miami phase, and banded, and reverse Okeetee, and candy cane, and sunglow are not named for a mutation, but for polygenetic traits that made them distinct from other amel mutants. The lack of melanin (red eyes) is the part of a morph that is predictable because it's a simple recessive mutation. The deep color and reduction (or lack of white) is what makes a sunglow different from a regular amel corn. The namesake of a candy cane is why good ones are not called merely amelanistc corns. A reverse Okeetee is recognizable because of the rich/clean colors are more saturated, and separated by atypically large white margins (some better than others). Hence, when you breed two excellent candy canes together, you cannot sell all the babies as candy canes. Some just do not make the grade. Their reds/oranges/whites were not good enough to call them candy canes, even though the parents were both good examples of the morph.

As everyone on this forum knows, corns are one of the most metamorphic species in the snake hobby today. Even a trained eye for evaluating how a hatchling’s colors will be rendered at maturity can make mistakes (case in point; your snake). In 1996, because so many people called me upon receiving their snakes, saying they thought I sent the wrong snake, I introduced my guarantee that states AFTER seven months, if your new SMR snake is not changing to the colors you expected, we will exchange it. I have only exchanged four since that date, but probably not because there were only four disappointed customers. In fact, I can think of another dozen or more cases where the customers were not pleased with the mature coloration of their SMR snakes, but because they had invested so much time, effort, money, and love into them, they elected to keep them. For those I was sad, since my goal has always been to advertise my morphs NOT with the most outstanding example with which to bait a customer, but with a typical example of the morph, so as adults, the customer would end up with exactly what was advertised. If you order a forest green Ford 150 pick-up truck, it will look exactly like your neighbor’s (except for options). Since the extent of our control over the appearance of the snakes we endeavor to produce is limited to the genetics of the snakes, and since those genetics are naturally prone to variation, we can never predict with 100% accuracy that the babies we ship out will mature to be like the pictures on our web site. BTW, I use a device that attaches to my monitors, to calibrate colors for accurate color rendition. Therefore, I don’t know what more I can do than offer an exchange, which almost always entails the customer starting all over again, raising up a new baby. I recall in the old days, people trying to sue film processors for ruining their negatives. Negatives of weddings or parties; events that could not be reproduced. Those people got a free roll of film for such mistakes. Sad, but what else could they do? Since this is so obviously unfair, in most cases where a customer has complained, I upgraded my guarantee, and offered them a free replacement, allowing them to keep or sell the one they raised up. Such would have been my offer to you, had you thought to contact the manufacturer with your complaint. This is the first I have heard that you were dissatisfied with your SMR purchase. BTW, just as any manufacturer cannot sell thousands (or millions) of products without a percentage of mistakes, I would never expect 100% of my customers to be completely satisfied. With that said, of the nearly 30,000 baby corns I’ve sold from my web site in the past 13 years, replacing four and having another dozen (heck, let’s say five dozen) customers that were not satisfied with mature coloration of their pets, indicates that my system is not completely flawed. You have no idea how many creamsicle Okeetees I sell as normal creamsicles each year, because they had “markers” that made me think they would not be good SMR embassadors of their respective morph. Hence, the only mistake made in your case was an honest one. I incorrectly thought yours was going to have good white margins. For that I’m sorry, and will still honor our exchange guarantee for your snake, along with our apology for all the effort and money you have put into raising that corn. It’s just ONE of the problems inherent to a hobby that deals with products that change appearance after they’re purchased. We breeders would like to think we’re driving, but often it appears that we’re sitting in the back seat.
South Mountain Reptiles

>>First, thanks for all the nice things said on my behalf.
>>What you must understand is that morphs like Okeetee and Miami phase, and banded, and reverse Okeetee, and candy cane, and sunglow are not named for a mutation, but for polygenetic traits that made them distinct from other amel mutants. The lack of melanin (red eyes) is the part of a morph that is predictable because it's a simple recessive mutation. The deep color and reduction (or lack of white) is what makes a sunglow different from a regular amel corn. The namesake of a candy cane is why good ones are not called merely amelanistc corns. A reverse Okeetee is recognizable because of the rich/clean colors are more saturated, and separated by atypically large white margins (some better than others). Hence, when you breed two excellent candy canes together, you cannot sell all the babies as candy canes. Some just do not make the grade. Their reds/oranges/whites were not good enough to call them candy canes, even though the parents were both good examples of the morph.
>>
>>As everyone on this forum knows, corns are one of the most metamorphic species in the snake hobby today. Even a trained eye for evaluating how a hatchling’s colors will be rendered at maturity can make mistakes (case in point; your snake). In 1996, because so many people called me upon receiving their snakes, saying they thought I sent the wrong snake, I introduced my guarantee that states AFTER seven months, if your new SMR snake is not changing to the colors you expected, we will exchange it. I have only exchanged four since that date, but probably not because there were only four disappointed customers. In fact, I can think of another dozen or more cases where the customers were not pleased with the mature coloration of their SMR snakes, but because they had invested so much time, effort, money, and love into them, they elected to keep them. For those I was sad, since my goal has always been to advertise my morphs NOT with the most outstanding example with which to bait a customer, but with a typical example of the morph, so as adults, the customer would end up with exactly what was advertised. If you order a forest green Ford 150 pick-up truck, it will look exactly like your neighbor’s (except for options). Since the extent of our control over the appearance of the snakes we endeavor to produce is limited to the genetics of the snakes, and since those genetics are naturally prone to variation, we can never predict with 100% accuracy that the babies we ship out will mature to be like the pictures on our web site. BTW, I use a device that attaches to my monitors, to calibrate colors for accurate color rendition. Therefore, I don’t know what more I can do than offer an exchange, which almost always entails the customer starting all over again, raising up a new baby. I recall in the old days, people trying to sue film processors for ruining their negatives. Negatives of weddings or parties; events that could not be reproduced. Those people got a free roll of film for such mistakes. Sad, but what else could they do? Since this is so obviously unfair, in most cases where a customer has complained, I upgraded my guarantee, and offered them a free replacement, allowing them to keep or sell the one they raised up. Such would have been my offer to you, had you thought to contact the manufacturer with your complaint. This is the first I have heard that you were dissatisfied with your SMR purchase. BTW, just as any manufacturer cannot sell thousands (or millions) of products without a percentage of mistakes, I would never expect 100% of my customers to be completely satisfied. With that said, of the nearly 30,000 baby corns I’ve sold from my web site in the past 13 years, replacing four and having another dozen (heck, let’s say five dozen) customers that were not satisfied with mature coloration of their pets, indicates that my system is not completely flawed. You have no idea how many creamsicle Okeetees I sell as normal creamsicles each year, because they had “markers” that made me think they would not be good SMR embassadors of their respective morph. Hence, the only mistake made in your case was an honest one. I incorrectly thought yours was going to have good white margins. For that I’m sorry, and will still honor our exchange guarantee for your snake, along with our apology for all the effort and money you have put into raising that corn. It’s just ONE of the problems inherent to a hobby that deals with products that change appearance after they’re purchased. We breeders would like to think we’re driving, but often it appears that we’re sitting in the back seat.
>>South Mountain Reptiles

Very well put Don.
You are definitely the class of our hobby, business, fascination or whatever you wish to call it.
Keep up the excellent work.
In the post above I showed a picture of a ghost I got from you....(I may be biased but I think he is one of the best looking ghosts I've seen).. and here is a nice okeetee I got from you as well.
They are both doing wonderfully, and producing beautiful offspring every year....lol

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

well said. Mike Panichi

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honesty is my only policy

Well jeeze, what more could one ask of a seller than that. The customer service bar is set for all of us breeders big or small, and if a guy doesn't see that as "THE" example of the way to do business, they don't live in the same world as I. I have been around the reptile hobby/business long enough to know that the reptile world would be a much classier and trusting place if there were more Don Soderbergs, no doubt one, but not the only reason for your success Don.
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Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com

Don at SMR! That's the way we all need to do buisness! Now if we could just get the customers to voice their dissatisfaction with an animal or even voice their concerns about phenotype, what their out come would be with future breeding plans and just about anything they might want help with instead of asking on a public forum . . . . . . . . we would be doing just fine . . . . . . . . Man I hate false rumors especially when they put down classy breeders! Hope everyones season is humming right along!
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1.0 Sunrise (sshhh)
1.0 orange ghost mojave
1.0 Het pied
1.0 Hypo
1.0 Spider Het Hypo
0.1 orange ghost mojave
0.1 mojave (best looking one ever! thanks Jeff Luman)
0.1 Pastel Het ghost
0.1 Hypo
0.1 mojave
0.4 Het nerd Orange Hypo
0.2 poss Het nerd Orange Hypo
0.1 poss Het albino
0.1 het pied
0.1 Bell Jungle
0.6 normal breeders
0.1 black pastel (unproven)
0.1 Tiger ball (unproven)
0.1 genetic reduced pattern
0.1 black back
0.1 mojave (best looking one ever! thanks Jeff Luman)
0.1 Pastel Het ghost
1.0 posslble salmon boa
0.1 BCI 8.5 ft
1.0 (creamcicle?) (okatee?) digging in to his genetics . . .
1.0 snow corn
1.0 anery motley
0.1 anery motley
0.1 ghost motley corn
0.1 lavendar het hypo
0.1 miami het hypo
0.1 coral snow
0.1 miami
0.1 sunglow
0.1 candy cane
0.1 love line okatee
0.1 blue tail monitor
2.2 felines aka boa food ;o
And I am not gonna count all those rats . . .

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Brian
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