Reptile & Amphibian Forums

my q is if i m feeding only corns and milks
and i am looking for a food source 30g-50g
it takes a mouse about 2-5 monthes to get that size(XL mouse)
and it takes 3-4 weeks for a rat to get to that size(weaned)
would it be better to breed rats and freeze them just after being weaned eliminating the lenghtly grow out needed for mice. but for hacthlings i would need mouse pinks so i was thinking

option 1 small rat colony and just order frozen mouse pinks
option 2 larger mouse colony with extenive grow out tubs
option 3 small rat colony and just 1.2 mice just for
pinks/fuzzies

i understand as soon as you get hatchling on fuuzies they start growing much faster. would this hinder the growth rate of sub adult snakes feeding them rat fuzzes vs mouse weanling.

will corns/milks/thayeri even take rats

don't matter what you feed as long as you feed....

......mice wean out at 17 days here, are fairly sized at 28 days.....

I no longer feed my stuff alot of items or huge items...they do not need to be stuffed......

......milks .....most can feed on fuzz and small mice...

..mice stink differently than rats......
..rats bite harder and ruin more if they get out....
..mice can be left 1.15 to a tank/tub.....rats need ALOT bigger tub to do this...
..breed both......
-----
......12
......75/ 11-1
...........................
1(normal,mojave,3 spider mojaves)
.

i would stick with mice, it can be very difficult to switch snakes over to rats that have been feeding on mice their whole lives. breed mice and freeze the extra.

"i understand as soon as you get hatchling on fuuzies they start growing much faster. would this hinder the growth rate of sub adult snakes feeding them rat fuzzes vs mouse weanling."

no, thats not true. if anything, it's opposite. i feed breeding females pinks to fatten them up quickly after a lay. pinks have higher fat and calcium than adults, pound for pound that is. i wish i still had the link for the nutrition analysis of feeder rodents, anyone out there want to help!? i wouldn't let this be a deciding factor anyways, the difference is very minimal.

"will corns/milks/thayeri even take rats"

yes, very small ones or pups, but like i said before it can be very difficult or impossible to make them switch over.

I would be very interested to see the published data for nutritional content of pinkies vs older mice. Compared to older mice, pinkies have much less developed musculature and skeletal systems, so I would expect them to have lower nutritional value. They may be higher in fat content, but I hardly see this as a plus. I too have seen a spike in hatchling growth rates after making the switch from pinky to fuzzy, so I personally think it's better for the snake to be fed one 6 gram fuzzy rather than three 2 gram pinkies. Just my 2 cents.

Another option to consider is African Soft Furs. I started a breeding colony to supplement my already established mouse colony. The ASFs stink FAR less than mice - it's not even close. After 1 week+, the smell from a 1.3 tank of ASFs is barely noticable. After 4 days, the smell from a 1.3 tank of mice could knock a buzzard off a crap-wagon. ASFs range from 60-80 grams for normal adults, up to 100+ grams for ex-breeder females, so they are 2-3 times the size of mice. I have corn, rat, and kingsnakes, as well as a ball python. All will switch back and forth between mice and ASFs without problems, but some individuals might be more finicky. The only downside for me is that day-old ASFs are 2 to 2.5 grams, which is pretty big for a lot of hatchling colubrids.

MZ

ASF pinks grow real fast, I find them small at times ,but yes, they are big and hairy little bugegrs in a day...

....mice....the other white meat.....

grow them all.......!, then add Peromyscus, chinese hamsters, gerbils, russians ,syrians....pygmies?.....LOL.....

.....all good food........

.
-----
......13
......82/ 11-4
...........................
1(normal,mojave,3 spider mojaves)
.

"I personally think it's better for the snake to be fed one 6 gram fuzzy rather than three 2 gram pinkies. Just my 2 cents."

you're probably right, if i remember correctly, pinks had more water %, so by weight that sounds logical.

i wish i had the damn thing because it said how a lot of the nutrition came from the milk in the gut of the pinks (more vitamins and such). pretty interesting, though trivial imo.

i can usually get finicky eaters to take a pink over a mouse. i don't know if it's the taste, nutrition content or nonthreatening size, but they do love em', and my breeders gulp them up greedily.

i've never measured weight gain of pink eaters vs adult mouse eaters, so i can't say for sure what is better. they (my snakes at least) do eat a little more weight in pinkies compared to adults (this i know because i've weighed the meals). i don't know what that proves, if anything, that's just the way it is!

i can only give you my subjective non-scientific observations. i guess i shouldn't have made such a declarative statement in my last post! sorry for any confusion, and thanks for keeping me straight.

I don't think you needed straightening out, and I appologize if I came off that way. There is more than one way to raise and feed a snake, and I'm not saying that my way is the right way. As long as your snakes are growing and thriving, that's all that really matters in the end. I just wanted to offer a slightly different point of view.

I have a small colony of breeder/feeder mice, and every time I look at a pinky, they strike me as being little more than a ball of mush wrapped in a thin bag of skin. I always wonder how they can provide any nutrition at all, but there is obviously something there because the hatchlings that eat them always grow.

Cheers,
MZ

"I don't think you needed straightening out, and I appologize if I came off that way."

you didn't come off that way at all! i was honestly delighted to hear a different opinion with a logical basis. i really appreciated your post and it made me reevaluate what i was doing and telling other people. the more perspectives you can get on something, the better you will understand it. i still feed my breeders pinkies, only now i assume it to be even more of an unnecessary measure bordering on a superstitious habit, but it works good for me!

there's no need to appologize, i could tell that your intentions were honest. i actually enjoy learning and i have no problem amending my beliefs in light of new knowledge, like a politician!!

i sincerely thank you for sharing with me.

p.s. - check out this link if you're interested. it's not the old one i was talking about but it has all the data you'll need to compare the nutrition of rats to mice and pinks to adults.

side note; these guys i linked to (rodentpro) have an awesome product, a very comprehensive site and the best prices i could find on the web. i've been buying from them for probably 6 years now and couldn't be happier. i have no affiliation with, or financial interest in this company, lol (funny and true)!
here it is!!!

Cool. I'm glad I didn't offend you. Thanks for the link, it's very interesting. I'll have to sit down and really look closely at it when I get more time.

For me, the problem with ordering from Rodent Pro is that you have to buy each size in quantities of 100. That is fine if you have a large enough collection to go through that many mice before they go bad in the freezer. Unfortunatly for me, my snake collection is currently small, and I need mice ranging from pinks to jumbo adults. Buying in bulk just doesn't work for me. Instead I just keep 3-4 breeding pairs/trios of mice and ASFs, so I have a constant supply of feeders at whatever size I need. They are a pain, but worth it in the long run.

Thanks for the info.

MZ

Surprisingly, my Wandering Garter snake, Ellie, prefers rat pinkies over mouse pinkies. You would think that it should be the other way around, because of size. Maybe Ellie finds the mouse pinkies to be too stinky or bad flavored.

Snakey Lakey