Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wanted to give my fellow herpers some info I obtained over the last two nights of being pulled over in the Heuco mountains... Yes, I was stopped by two different game wardens in the Heucos on back to back nights.... Ok, they are aware that they have to see you collect a herp! No, its not illegal to shine cuts and take photos! Now, this is a new for me......... I have my permits and insurance and a clean record, and I hadnt seen a darn thing, so I was clean, but I was issued a sitation for not having a hunters safety card!!! So, just a word of advice, get the card if you dont already have it, its good for life!

The Game warden is wrong! You are not required to have a hunter saftey course card unless hunting with a weapon. I was sited for the same thing when I moved here a few years back and recieved a call from the warden two days later telling me to tear up the citation, that since I was not hunting with a weapon, it didn't apply.

You do not need a safety card or even a license / permit to observe and take pictures. A warden can issue all the citations he wants but that does not make him right. You need to fight that in court. Could you imagine the stir if they were to harras the bird watchers the way they treat us.

The birding community is large, highly organized and typically affluent. As such they bring income to sometimes remote locales and so have lots of pull. I wouldn't wish that herping become so popular but there are some lessons to be learned here.

I just noted Joe Forks post above this and his request for documentation of $$$ spent in the herping the S.W., I assume more specifically S.W. Texas and I'm sure that some of the little towns there benefit from herpers patronizing gas stations, markets, restaurants and lodging. Maybe that's the best form of lobbying. So, would it be best to make it clear that you are "herping" or might that be counter-productive for some other reason? In the birding community birders are encouraged to wear there "bins" into restaurants etc. to make it clear that they are bringing in the $$$.

Please be very specific. Educational permits? General hunting license? Research permits?

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

Best Wishes,

StevenX

I might have told them a citation for hunter safety isn't applicable since you weren't hunting. Also, as stated before, this is a license/certification given after the completion of a class for firearms safety training. Should be easy enough to get this dismissed.

If you were born before a certain year (I believe 1970?) you don't need either the card or the course...But since you were not hunting, just observing, you didn't need anything!

Definitely take this one to court.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

Hunter Education is mandatory for all persons born on or after January 1, 1972 in Texas IF you are hunting with a weapon.

Hunter Education is mandatory for all persons born on or after January 1, 1972 in Texas IF you are hunting with a weapon.

BUT...I think some places won't issue the huntin' license without showing the Hunter Education card first.

The simple solution would be an end-around to get reptiles classified as "fish" for legal, licensing purposes. Negate the whole ROW ban because we'd no longer be "hunting" for herps, but "fishing" for them like in CA.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I've never encountered that problem, but I haven't tried to buy one since this ban was put in place. I'd usually go to Wal-Mart, don't know if it's different in other places. Has anyone who is collecting on private property run into this problem?

Can't you also place a formal complaint against the issuing officer for such action? Seems more like harassment to me.
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Brad Alexander

fullsp.com

Game warden just called me and dismissed the citation! You guys are right, you only need the hunter education card if your hunting with a firearm! Disregard my suggestion to get the card! All you need is your non-game permit.

Coach..... technically your right about not needing a permit to take photos, but if your out there spotlighting your technically hunting, so just be safe and get the permit!

I hope you got an apology as well when it was dismissed, after all the citation was in error.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

>>Coach..... technically your right about not needing a permit to take photos, but if your out there spotlighting your technically hunting, so just be safe and get the permit!

This is where the law is just plain muddy...you don't need a permit/license to birdwatch or take pictures of wildflowers (even goatsuckers/nighthawks or night-blooming cacti), so why would you need one for taking pictures of snakes at night? The "muddy" part comes from the poor wording of the definition of "hunt" to include "pursue." If they consider you to be "hunting" by shining a cut, then they'd be technically correct to issue a citation. It's MADNESS!
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Yes, but technically, I doubt such a citation would hold up in court.
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Brad Alexander

fullsp.com

Does it really matter if this would hold up? It is not hunting if you are observing, so no citation should be issued. Things are getting even more out of hand, if they have to use really obscure things to find a reason to cite. This is harassment, in my opinion. They want to cite, just to cite. Watch this thread go the way of the other one...why was it pulled?
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Todd Hughes

"why was it pulled?"

Because there was actual thought and fairly productive discussion. And because it referenced a deleted thread.
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South Texas Herps

So this one has a ticking clock on it now...
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

LOL, thats what I just thought.LMAO...........

Heck, just driving down the highway in west Texas would imply that I was hunting.

L8r

Now we are into the definition of persue. If the attempt to look at herps counts as persuit then so does the attempt to look at birds, mammals, plants, rocks, etc. Finding and observing can't be persuit; they'd have to give you a ticket for looking at a cactus.

I believe the definition of hunt in the reg book is "to pursue with the intent to kill , capture or take". Spotlighting with the intention to observe and take pictures is not illegal and does not require a license or permit.

>>I believe the definition of hunt in the reg book is "to pursue with the intent to kill , capture or take". Spotlighting with the intention to observe and take pictures is not illegal and does not require a license or permit.

Thats correct. Maybe all we need to carry is a dictionary. But then we would have to assume they can read it.
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Steve W.

>>I believe the definition of hunt in the reg book is "to pursue with the intent to kill , capture or take". Spotlighting with the intention to observe and take pictures is not illegal and does not require a license or permit.

Texas Parks and Wildlife Code:

Sec. 1.101. DEFINITIONS. In this code:
(1) "Hunt" means capture, trap, take, or kill, or an attempt to capture, trap, take, or kill.
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HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

I agree that this sounds petty, ridiculous and qualifies as harrassment. Think about this, a person out in the middle of nowhere, no gun, not poaching, not drunk, just enjoying being out in the wild, and he gets harrassed not just one night, but both nights!!! And then given a really ridiculous citation. That would really tick me off. It makes me mad just reading about it. I understand they have a job to do, but it is a real shame that they think harrassing herpers is really part of their job. Do we bombard Texas Parks and Wildlife with emails complaining about this? or just put up with it?

>>I agree that this sounds petty, ridiculous and qualifies as harrassment. Think about this, a person out in the middle of nowhere, no gun, not poaching, not drunk, just enjoying being out in the wild, and he gets harrassed not just one night, but both nights!!! And then given a really ridiculous citation. That would really tick me off. It makes me mad just reading about it. I understand they have a job to do, but it is a real shame that they think harrassing herpers is really part of their job. Do we bombard Texas Parks and Wildlife with emails complaining about this? or just put up with it?

While it makes me mad too, please remember folks, the Wardens didn't pass this legislation. Our good friends (sarcasm) in Austin did this. I know a few wardens and they are some of the best folks you'll ever meet. I'm sure there are exceptions just like in every profession but please keep this in mind while out in the field. If you are mad about this law, join up with HCU-TX or USARK and make your voice heard. By all means, feel free to call Austin and tell them what you think about this. Afterall, their job is to make our outdoor experience as enjoyable as possible (sarcasm again).
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HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

>>While it makes me mad too, please remember folks, the Wardens didn't pass this legislation. >>-----
>>HCU
>>Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

No but they are the ones out in the field who have the duty to determine if people are breaking the laws. Issuing a citation only to have it withdrawn soon after tells me that the warden/wardens don't know the laws themselves or they are just writing the tickets with a roll of the dice.

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Steve W.

>>
>>No but they are the ones out in the field who have the duty to determine if people are breaking the laws. Issuing a citation only to have it withdrawn soon after tells me that the warden/wardens don't know the laws themselves or they are just writing the tickets with a roll of the dice.
>>
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>>Steve W.

From my post...
"I'm sure there are exceptions just like in every profession"
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HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

just can't see why TPWD doesn't want our money, let alone fulfill the obligation of letting us enjoy the wildlife.. I won't be buying a hunting license this year for Texas...I will be hunting out of state and I will be photographing here come August.
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Todd Hughes

Hey, look on the bright side....after we got pulled over that first night, he gave us his card and asked us to call him if we ever see any illegal herping going on up there in the Huecos....LOL....now that was pretty funny!!