Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was expecting a litter of pure Hog Isles shortly, but a week or two ago... my female started acting listless and I started to worry. I made sure she was introduced to her water bowl a couple times maunally, for my peace of mind, but no interest even though she started to look dehydrated. I didn't want to bother her too much and wasn't sure when her due date was, so I just kept checking in on her. She hadn't been fed in a couple months (paranoia over unknown due date) and had deposited a few piles of urates and what looked like it could have been a waxy stool, so I waited anxiously hoping it was the pregnancy causing her to act weakly.
Today I found her passed on. She was still limp, so I did the thing many folks do and immediately cut her open to make sure the babies weren't able to be saved. She only had two, nearly fully formed, but still with yolks... dead. Bummer. There were also a couple slugs, but I dug around a bit above them and found what wasn't a normal part of her anatomy and looked to be HUGE tumors! They were were not slugs and had veins; also were very firm, while the slugs were soft and breakable.
Any thoughts? I am sad to have lost her, but feel a weight lifted knowing that it may not have been my fault. I've had Isis for a little over half a year I believe...




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Steph S.
Boas...
1.1 Albino boas (Loki & Hope)
1.1 Sunglow (Rojo and Temperance (25% Suriname))
1.4 07 Het. albino boas (Petty & Lady,Sierra,Madeline,Lola)
0.1 Reverse stripe poss. het albino (Cookie)
0.1 Salmon/hypo (Scarlet)
1.0 Anery (Reno)
1.0 Probable Super Salmontine(Kahn)
0.1 Salmontine (Sonya)
2.0 DH Sunglow (Gabrielle and Dumah)
1.0 Hypo het anery (Don Juan)
1.1 07 Hypo pos. triple hets (Rico Suave & Pumpkin)
1.0.1 Het. Anery (Guy & ?)
0.1 2007 Mostly striped boa (Andromeda)
0.3 Normals (Ophelia, Sasha, & Lulu)
1.0 Surinames (Solomon & Surreal(deceased)
1.3 Hog Isles (Mr.Orange & Peaches, Tang, Isis)
0.0.1 Central American (Sassy)
1.0 ATB (Satan... seriously!)
Pythons...
2.1 GTPs (B., Monty & Jewel)
0.0.2 BPs ( Precious, Houdini)
1.2 Carpet Pythons (Jackson, Charlotte, & Cassandra)
1.2 Blood python (Akaia, Thorn, Elliot)
1.1 Borneo Blood Pythons (Donovan and Deanna)
1.2 Children's Pythons (Spot, Freckle and Speckle)
Misc.
1.1 Mandarin Ratsnakes (Jack & Jill)
1.0 Boxer/Pitt Mutt (Tyson)
1.0 Saharan Uromastyx

I'm so sorry! There have been a lot of these type of posts lately which is never good to see. The masses appear like they might be part of her reproductive system, but the only way you'll really know what they are is to have a histopathology (biopsy) done on one of them. If you want to do that, I would put one in the refrigerator wrapped in a moistened paper towel and get a hold of a vet tomorrow since it really needs to be fixed in formalin so that it doesn't decompose.

Thanks for the response,

The last time I had a female pass on me, I did do an amateur autopsy her as well and did not find anything looking like that in her. Were you thinking it was a normal part of her reproductive system or an abnormality in her reproductive system?

Unfortunately, I put her in the freezer after I was certain I couldn't do anything for the babies, so I think taking the mass in for a vet analysis may be out of the question now. Hopefully there is not a next time, but if there is I will be sure to do what you suggested and refrigerate them for a professional opinon!

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Steph S.
Boas...
1.1 Albino boas (Loki & Hope)
1.1 Sunglow (Rojo and Temperance (25% Suriname))
1.4 07 Het. albino boas (Petty & Lady,Sierra,Madeline,Lola)
0.1 Reverse stripe poss. het albino (Cookie)
0.1 Salmon/hypo (Scarlet)
1.0 Anery (Reno)
1.0 Probable Super Salmontine(Kahn)
0.1 Salmontine (Sonya)
2.0 DH Sunglow (Gabrielle and Dumah)
1.0 Hypo het anery (Don Juan)
1.1 07 Hypo pos. triple hets (Rico Suave & Pumpkin)
1.0.1 Het. Anery (Guy & ?)
0.1 2007 Mostly striped boa (Andromeda)
0.3 Normals (Ophelia, Sasha, & Lulu)
1.0 Surinames (Solomon & Surreal(deceased)
1.3 Hog Isles (Mr.Orange & Peaches, Tang, Isis)
0.0.1 Central American (Sassy)
1.0 ATB (Satan... seriously!)
Pythons...
2.1 GTPs (B., Monty & Jewel)
0.0.2 BPs ( Precious, Houdini)
1.2 Carpet Pythons (Jackson, Charlotte, & Cassandra)
1.2 Blood python (Akaia, Thorn, Elliot)
1.1 Borneo Blood Pythons (Donovan and Deanna)
1.2 Children's Pythons (Spot, Freckle and Speckle)
Misc.
1.1 Mandarin Ratsnakes (Jack & Jill)
1.0 Boxer/Pitt Mutt (Tyson)
1.0 Saharan Uromastyx

Unfortunately you had to experience the loss of mother and babies, there are no words to say

keep your chin up
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

Thanks Joel,

Funny how knowing this is a possibility every time you breed your animals, and experiencing it, seem worlds apart! The "It won't happen to me" mind-frame proved wrong again.

Thanks for the positive energy though! May it serve me well and bring me better outcomes next year!

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Steph S.
Boas...
1.1 Albino boas (Loki & Hope)
1.1 Sunglow (Rojo and Temperance (25% Suriname))
1.4 07 Het. albino boas (Petty & Lady,Sierra,Madeline,Lola)
0.1 Reverse stripe poss. het albino (Cookie)
0.1 Salmon/hypo (Scarlet)
1.0 Anery (Reno)
1.0 Probable Super Salmontine(Kahn)
0.1 Salmontine (Sonya)
2.0 DH Sunglow (Gabrielle and Dumah)
1.0 Hypo het anery (Don Juan)
1.1 07 Hypo pos. triple hets (Rico Suave & Pumpkin)
1.0.1 Het. Anery (Guy & ?)
0.1 2007 Mostly striped boa (Andromeda)
0.3 Normals (Ophelia, Sasha, & Lulu)
1.0 Surinames (Solomon & Surreal(deceased)
1.3 Hog Isles (Mr.Orange & Peaches, Tang, Isis)
0.0.1 Central American (Sassy)
1.0 ATB (Satan... seriously!)
Pythons...
2.1 GTPs (B., Monty & Jewel)
0.0.2 BPs ( Precious, Houdini)
1.2 Carpet Pythons (Jackson, Charlotte, & Cassandra)
1.2 Blood python (Akaia, Thorn, Elliot)
1.1 Borneo Blood Pythons (Donovan and Deanna)
1.2 Children's Pythons (Spot, Freckle and Speckle)
Misc.
1.1 Mandarin Ratsnakes (Jack & Jill)
1.0 Boxer/Pitt Mutt (Tyson)
1.0 Saharan Uromastyx

I'm sorry you lost her Steph. I maybe wrong but it is my belief that the orange ova ,sweet potatoes, slugs are unfertilized ova.
Then there are sometimes whitish colored ova that look similar to what you have there.
I think the white type slugs are fertilized and then die leaving whitish yolk with blood vessels.
That's just been my thoughts about these type slugs.
I can't be certain if those two masses are those whitish slugs that occur once in a while or tumor growths.
Just a thought .

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

That's a tuff one to swallow for sure. Larry, I agree with you on what the other whire masses might be. Best wishes for the future to all. Andrew

Thanks for the input... do you think that if I were to thaw her out and dissect one, that I would find any evidence of this possibility? Or would it be more likely, if they were dead ova, that they died too early to leave any visual evidence for the naked eye? It would be worth the morbid task to know for sure.
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Steph S.
Boas...
1.1 Albino boas (Loki & Hope)
1.1 Sunglow (Rojo and Temperance (25% Suriname))
1.4 07 Het. albino boas (Petty & Lady,Sierra,Madeline,Lola)
0.1 Reverse stripe poss. het albino (Cookie)
0.1 Salmon/hypo (Scarlet)
1.0 Anery (Reno)
1.0 Probable Super Salmontine(Kahn)
0.1 Salmontine (Sonya)
2.0 DH Sunglow (Gabrielle and Dumah)
1.0 Hypo het anery (Don Juan)
1.1 07 Hypo pos. triple hets (Rico Suave & Pumpkin)
1.0.1 Het. Anery (Guy & ?)
0.1 2007 Mostly striped boa (Andromeda)
0.3 Normals (Ophelia, Sasha, & Lulu)
1.0 Surinames (Solomon & Surreal(deceased)
1.3 Hog Isles (Mr.Orange & Peaches, Tang, Isis)
0.0.1 Central American (Sassy)
1.0 ATB (Satan... seriously!)
Pythons...
2.1 GTPs (B., Monty & Jewel)
0.0.2 BPs ( Precious, Houdini)
1.2 Carpet Pythons (Jackson, Charlotte, & Cassandra)
1.2 Blood python (Akaia, Thorn, Elliot)
1.1 Borneo Blood Pythons (Donovan and Deanna)
1.2 Children's Pythons (Spot, Freckle and Speckle)
Misc.
1.1 Mandarin Ratsnakes (Jack & Jill)
1.0 Boxer/Pitt Mutt (Tyson)
1.0 Saharan Uromastyx

I'm thinking they are pretty close to microscopic
but what the heck give it a shot

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz
Boas By Klevitz

I think I would dissect them all, but I think I would do it while they are still mostly frozen...that will make it easier to cut.

I think you will find evidence to support Larry and Andrew's theory....I feel there would be no reason for there to be blood vessels with out being viable at one time
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

That makes sense to do it that way and I likely will give it a try! Thanks!
The disappointment in doing it myself is that even if I don't find evidence of them being ova, I still won't know for sure whether they are that, or tumerous masses, unless I visit a local vet. Even then, I doubt the ones here would know too much more than myself, even though they do have reptile/exotic experience(Yes, I am exaggerating about their lack of knowledge, but not by too much!). They can't even get back to me when I have questions or inquire about making an appointment for a particular test on any of my live animals when I feel it necessary (unless it is in regards to my dog, then I hear back in a hurry).
Thanks again!
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Steph S.
Boas...
1.1 Albino boas (Loki & Hope)
1.1 Sunglow (Rojo and Temperance (25% Suriname))
1.4 07 Het. albino boas (Petty & Lady,Sierra,Madeline,Lola)
0.1 Reverse stripe poss. het albino (Cookie)
0.1 Salmon/hypo (Scarlet)
1.0 Anery (Reno)
1.0 Probable Super Salmontine(Kahn)
0.1 Salmontine (Sonya)
2.0 DH Sunglow (Gabrielle and Dumah)
1.0 Hypo het anery (Don Juan)
1.1 07 Hypo pos. triple hets (Rico Suave & Pumpkin)
1.0.1 Het. Anery (Guy & ?)
0.1 2007 Mostly striped boa (Andromeda)
0.3 Normals (Ophelia, Sasha, & Lulu)
1.0 Surinames (Solomon & Surreal(deceased)
1.3 Hog Isles (Mr.Orange & Peaches, Tang, Isis)
0.0.1 Central American (Sassy)
1.0 ATB (Satan... seriously!)
Pythons...
2.1 GTPs (B., Monty & Jewel)
0.0.2 BPs ( Precious, Houdini)
1.2 Carpet Pythons (Jackson, Charlotte, & Cassandra)
1.2 Blood python (Akaia, Thorn, Elliot)
1.1 Borneo Blood Pythons (Donovan and Deanna)
1.2 Children's Pythons (Spot, Freckle and Speckle)
Misc.
1.1 Mandarin Ratsnakes (Jack & Jill)
1.0 Boxer/Pitt Mutt (Tyson)
1.0 Saharan Uromastyx

Many types of tumors can be highly vascular so I don't think that necessarily means it had to have been viable at one point. However, given the location, shape, etc I was wondering the likelihood it was old reproductive/embryonic material myself, but I think the only solid answer would come from a biopsy. If you do have the courage to open one up let us know what you find. I would suggest even with them frozen that you either call your vet or one of the many veterinary diagnostic labs (Colorado, U. Penn, U. FL, etc) and see if they would allow you to submit a sample yourself just for piece of mind. Regardless of species, a good pathologist should be able to tell you if it is embryonic tissue, sarcoma, carcinoma, etc. Think about if you really want/need to know. Is knowing it was cancer or not going to change anything? You know if your temps and husbandry for a breeding female were correct and I'm sure they were so this isn't something you did. If you don't get a solid answer I wouldn't worry about it too much. It's a hard, hard thing, but as the others have said, sometimes these things just happen.

I know what you mean about the thinking it won't happen to you. I've been there with something entirely different, but it's a surreal feeling.

I had a female die on me last year (first female, never bred
except got a boa from a friend) I cut her open and she had like
28 slugs and did not want to keep cutting. I had a reputable
breeder tell me just to put the heat pad on there and she will
regulate herself! MF (you know)! He knew what he was doing, he
just plotted to mess with me (not friends). It is such a
horrible thing to go through. These are like family to me, so
when someone passes, its HARD. Keep your head up, this will
happen sooner or later, just sucks that it had to be when you
were expecting babies. Hope you are well
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Kenny Bowman

"Symetry Exotics"
Honesty is the only route to TRUE respect, anything else is unacceptable....