Reptile & Amphibian Forums

What does F2 actually stand for?

If someone raises a hatchling from an unknown source to become a "proven" breeder, does that make those hatchlings F2 or F3?

Thanks,

Terry
Turtletary

second filial generation: all of the offspring produced by two individuals of the first filial generation; thus symbol F2.

-thus-

third filial generation: all of the offspring produced by two
individuals of the second filial generation; thus symbol F3

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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

Question on F2 designation? Do both breeders have to be captive born? If yes then what is the designation of one C.B and one W.C. Maybe F 1.5 And how do you know what it is if the breeding group is a trio of C.B and W.C. APF2? Any AZA people out there? "is it real or just confushion" j.hendrex purple haze. Civ

I think "Buffalo Springfield" explains it best"Something happening here what it is isn't exactly clear"
My perception is you have to knowledge of your breeder stock and tracked their original offspring (F1) and do all the foot work and years of husbandry to produce those true F2's. I'm used to snakes and it goes so much faster then it does with tortoises. My hat goes off to the few of you guys that have been there and done that---- My F2's are unfortunately about 7 years into the future! Need an Orson Wells "Time machine"

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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

True F1 generation CB individuals would be the offspring produced by two WC adults who actually bred in captivity and produced offspring. The offspring of two true F1 generation CB individuals would be the F2 CB generation. The offspring of the F2 CB generation would be F3 CB generation, etc.

I suppose that if a CB male from an F1 generation was bred to a WC female, one could designate their babies as the F1 offspring of the female and the F2 offspring of the male. However, I most often see these terms applied to more "pure" offspring produced as described in the paragraph above.

I acquired 3 CB hatchlings in '98.. "source" unknown. They grew to [ be females and ] mate with my WC males and produced their first hatchlings in Feb. '05. Their hatchlings must be at least F2.. correct?

Should I then consider those F2 to produce F3?.. or should I claim I have F2 by them?

In other words.. obviously my '05 hatchlings are not producing yet! But when they do.. have I in fact produced F2 or F3 redfoot hatchlings in captivity? I did produce F2 spotted turtles a few years back.

I can't even guess how many "F's" zovick has produced!
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Terry
Turtletary.com

Their hatchlings would be F1's - Anytime you deviate from the true fillial generation, you default back to F1. You could have an F15, breed it to a wildcaught animal, or even an F1,2,3, etc, and you would get first Fillial generation offspring. Breed an F15 to another F15, and you get F16. Now, the purists fillial generation means if you breed two F2's, they need to be directly related ( clutchmates ) to make F3's. The laymans F3 I would consider offspring of any related or un-related F2, as long as they were true second generation animals............
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South Central Herpetological

Thank you.. I agree..

From my understanding.. my raised-up breeders are still F1.. and their hatchlings are F2.. however I can't/wouldn't claim 3rd generation to be F3!

MY '05's offspring will be F2 in MY colony. Someone once said.. "You're offering F2 hatchlings already". I then said 'Not in MY colony.. I didn't hatch their parents. I started all over again in '98'.

Thanks for the confirmations guys.

Very first in Feb. '05 -

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Terry
Turtletary.com

All I know at this point is TODAY I have some F...someth.ings..piping their way out. CB 95 F X W.C.M.I had two females from different groups lay within hours of each other.Another about three days later.The fouth female was three weeks later. This has never happened in over twenty years! Waiting for the eggs is like rolling the dice for the work you have done and your watching them in slow motion for a year to hit the table .Hatching day is payoff, all,part or "no babies for you". Who new tortoises could be so "INTENSE" Vic

As it is normally used, the term "F2 generation CB" would imply (or require) that BOTH of the parents were the F1 CB offspring of two WC adults. My interpretation is that BOTH parents must be CB to utilize the terminology correctly.

Once you breed a WC to a CB, I think you would have to go down one number in order not mislead people, or, to be truly accuarate, you must indicate (as I mentioned in a post above) that the resulting offspring are "the F1 CB generation from the WC male and the F2 CB generation from the CB female". To me, that makes it exactly correct and accurate, though some people might find it confusing. To keep it simple, I only say my animals are F whatever if both of the parents are CB.

Thanks your explanation makes the use of F1 and F2 very clear. The babies in the attached picture are all F1's from two years ago. Their parents are 11 years old not related. Both breeders were captive born and bought 10 years ago from different breeders. I've held back a pair of these babies and hope to produce F2's in around 7-8 years from now. thanks again Richard

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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

Hi Richard. If the parents of the babies in your photo were both CB animals as you stated, those parents are the F1 generation, the babies bred from them in your photo are F2, and when you later breed those babies successfully, their offspring will be the F3 generation of CB animals.

Thanks, so it's the F 2's and on going generations where brother and sister are bred and both share common geneology. F 1's don't have to have common geneology....thanks Richard
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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

Hello Richard. If you go back and reread the post by Eric, you will see that he says that only purists would say that offspring of the same parents (siblings) need be bred to each other to continue beyond the F1 generation. I would go one step further and say that that strict interpretation applies to PLANTS not animals. This whole F1, F2, etc. business was first used to describe plant genetics and trait inheritance, not animal genetics. As later applied to animals, the definition of F1 would be:

"The first filial generation, produced by crossing two parental lines."

The definition of F2 would be:

"The second filial generation, produced by crossing two parental lines from the F1 generation."

And so on, down the line. I hope this makes it more clear. If you go back through this thread after reading the above and read just the other posts I added, it may seem more coherent and less confusing.

interesting stuff