Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys, after years of trying to find some available in Canada, i've just gotten my first subflavus ever. Here she is :

Now, i just have to find the rest of the unrelated breeding group i want to build . Don`t think i`m going to look for the other ones in the country though... i think the ones in the Canadian private hobby are all from the same bloodline...

phil.

That one is very nice. Congradulations as I love subflavus and have been breeding them for almost 30 years now.

Good luck with yours and I hope you are very successful in your endeavor.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Wow, 30 years... I've been reading paper after paper on their captive breeding, ecology, genetics, conservation status and this is my most wanted project ever. I want to maintain an unrelated breeding group and help the propagation of that specie, so hearing that you've been doing it for over 30 years is something quite amazing to hear! Good job!!!!

I've wanted to get my hands on Canadian subflavus for the past 5-6 years and i finally got my first one, but i dont think i'm going to rely on Canada for the rest of the group, because there are very few and they are all from the same bloodline. Maybe you could help me ?

phil.

I'd be happy to help you but the red tape to get an export permit makes it nigh impossible unless you are a Zoo...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

There have been Puerto Ricans legally imported to Canada by privates not that long ago as well as Madagascar ground boas and other CITES1 animals. I'm familiar with importing CITES animals but i have never done CITES1 before. I know it is doable and i'm very serious about it all, so i defenetly dont mind doing what it takes .

phil.

Phil - the main barrier is obtaining US export permits for CITES I/ESA listed animals. I've never tried but understand that essentially USFWS will not issue export permits for commercial transactions.

Tom will correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. Maybe some Canadian zoos have some subflavus stock and would help you out? You could always try and import from Europe - the inornatus came to Canada from Germany I believe?

Ryan

It would be impossible to do a commercial permit...Ryan is correct...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Hm, interesting... Anyways, no matter what it takes, i will try it. From the States, from France, from England, i will do it. I might even try to pair it up with my Masters in Biology... maybe it could work if it was paired with a University program...

Haha, it is just like i told you, i will do what it takes and it's going to happen, the only factor that will vary will be time. I just hope i can count on some assistance from other E.subflavus keepers to get there .

phil.

Well hello Phil!

I said it "over there" and I'll say it here too:

Beautiful animal! Congrats.
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~Danielle

2.1 BRBs
1.1 BCI
1.0 Southern White-Lipped Pythons
1.1 Black Milksnakes

Congrats, Phil, she looks like a good sized female and a nice one at that.

Hope you are able to track down a male - quite a few stateside but obtaining permits is a PITA and makes it almost impossible to ship overseas.
Ryan

quite a beautiful snake. Do they all start off with that beautiful granite like orange/red/black speckling and it turns steadily darker til their tails look like a fresh oil spill in the sun? (ie rainbowish black)

I have to say I certainly haven't seen any of them in Canada myself, only two species of Rainbow boa I see regularly are Brazilian and Columbian..and I think a misnamed Peruian (as it looked like a Columbian and I am pretty sure the Peruvian look much like Brazilian but with either larger or smaller scales..)

As for importing them in from the states, I think all you really need is a CITES permit, depending on how the subflavus are classified...though I expect the real question is how much are you willing to pay a breeder in the US to go through all the red tape to ship one to you?

Also, the Canadian bloodlines may have come from a US breeder to start off with, so may need to check your source here to see where their stock originated from. Really depends on how well people kept track of who they bought their animals from.

On another note, how big do these rainbows get? I find rainbow boas are a species of boa that doesn't get enough recognition up here, they are beautiful snakes and outshine many other commonly kept boa species in my eyes. (in my eyes normal Brazilian rainbow boas out shine most of the red tails, BCI and subspecies and their morphs) and have the advantage of not weighing so much and needing as much space. (and not getting as large...heard red tails and BCI's reach anywhere between 6' to 14' though not sure if this is accurate or the range is due to many variations in size of subspecies and regional species, mostly because the name Red tailed boa seems to apply to more than one species of boa)
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PHLdyPayne

Neonates look nothing like the adults being a rather solid orange color. It takes 2 plus years for them to change and adults are extremely variable in color from solid black to orange, gold, butter yellow, mixes of many colors. NO TWO ARE ARE EVER ALIKE IN COLOR....

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Stunning animals and very cool they have such variety of color too. The BRB do have a range in color but not as extreme as these guys
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PHLdyPayne

Lots of good info if you haven't seen it b4

http://www.lanevol.org/LANE/jamboa.html

Ryan

Is she gravid? She sure looks like it. Mine I believe is also.. I guess you did the right thing putting them together...lol

The last pic is one of my f-1 20 year old plus monster subflavus and the even get bigger than this one....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

She's looking good Tom, so who knows? Would end up being a nice bonus if she goes this year.

Your 20yo monster subflavus looks like she could put a hurting on you - I'm guessing that's why Patty is keeping her at arms length lol.

Nigel showed up yet?

Yup, he's here now....

Here's a nice little s. striatus at the time of capture in the D.R. last year...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom,
when did the DR start issuing CITES Permits? I talked with them extensively, in person, a year ago and they said they didn't have a management progam in place, so CITES were a no!

We went down and tried to get permits and even went herping but we were NOT isuused permits and we didn't bring anything back. Actually at first it seemed they were going to do so but we only stayed 10 days. When we got back we followed thru with our attempt to get permits for a small number of E. gracilis primarily because I only have one pair here. We haven't given up but so far no snakes and no permits but we had a GREAT time observing them in the wild and of course took a ton of pics. I, of course, will keep trying...I really learned more about gracilis on that trip than ever before. Our friend in the D.R. showed us how to look for them and they were quite common although before I had thought them to be rare.. We saw and photographed over 24 snakes in the 10 days there. Years ago I bred them to f-3 generations but had only seen one in the wild before this trip. All my others had come frrom Haiti...

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, I didn't mean to imply that you took snakes home the old fashioned way, I just wanted to know if I was the only one being refused permits by the DR. I spent 9 days in Santiago,visiting an old girlfriend, and kept tripping over herps, but no one would give me paperwork.

Thanks a lot, Ryan . Actually, i've already read the paper by Tzika and C.Remy but i didnt see the website. I've been in contact with Mr.Remy for a while now and also the Durell Wildlife Conservation Trust. They seem to be doing some great work... I seriously wish i could take part in it .

phil.

Phil,
...Congratulations. That is a great looking snake. I think I remember reading about a Canadian Zoo captive breeding subflavius back in the 1980s.
Jeff

>>Hey guys, after years of trying to find some available in Canada, i've just gotten my first subflavus ever. Here she is :
>>
>>
>>
>>Now, i just have to find the rest of the unrelated breeding group i want to build . Don`t think i`m going to look for the other ones in the country though... i think the ones in the Canadian private hobby are all from the same bloodline...
>>
>> phil.

Yeah, there used to be a place in Ontario called the Reptile Breeding Foundation, where Mr. Tom Huff worked with many different species of insular Epicrates. Unfortunatly, it seems like the place closed over 10 years ago... No clue of where the animals went... probably to local zoo...

phil.

Phil,
...Yes, that was the place.
Jeff

>>Yeah, there used to be a place in Ontario called the Reptile Breeding Foundation, where Mr. Tom Huff worked with many different species of insular Epicrates. Unfortunatly, it seems like the place closed over 10 years ago... No clue of where the animals went... probably to local zoo...
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>> phil.

Tom Huff worked very closely with the Jersey zoo and the Hope zoo on the subflavus breeding project. For multi reasons the Hope zoo, or Jamaican government reneged on repopulating the island with the boas.
Most of the neonates found their way in to the private sector in Canada and in Europe. And even a few ended up in the States, one way or another. I would hazard a guess and say that one would be hard pressed to find unrelated bloodlines in captivity.
There are still quite a few spread out in private collections in Canada, but not everybody airs their business in public.
I think they are nice snakes, not the top of my list for insulars however.
After Picton was disbanded, some animals went to Granby Zoo, and some others went to a private boa foundation in Granby, though I have never been able to prove that place ever existed.
I am more interested in what happened to Mr. Huff's Ragged Island boas...those are one snake that tops the list.
I had a friend in Canada that used to breed eastern Indigos, he produced 96 in one year, but was always good for at least twenty - thirty...this was in the mid to late 80's, they were all sold in Canada, Where are they now? I'm not surprised that insulars are hard to find, even if they were once imported by the 1000's.

Seems like the subflavus in the Granby zoo have been relocated elsewhere... i should probably ask the CAZA ( Canadian Association of Zoos and Aquariums ) about them.

phil.

Any luck with the Cuban Alsophis this year? You're the only person I've managed to find in the entire freaking world with any Alsophis sp.!

I'd really like to set some of these guys up in a large, naturalistic vivarium.
Cheers, Ryan

Hey Ryan,
so far nothing. I have 3 or 4 gravid Melanurus, or at least I hope I do, they have fooled me before.
You should take a long weekend, swing by Jay's and come up to Canada for a visit. Lots of Cuban snakes, Cuban rum and Cuban cigars left over from my last trip (over four ago, so everything is well aged)

Thanks for the offer of a weekend north, John, sounds very tempting. I'll email Wagner and see if he fancies a trip, he usually spends all weekend in his basement playing with his critters

We've got our fingers-crossed on a gravid chrysogaster this year, but only time will tell...
Ryan

Actually I got a small group of the Ragged Isle Boas in the 1990's. A LOT of the collection was exported into the U.S. to a famous reptile dealer now retired from the selling end of it. The whole thing was a HUSH-HUSH affair as to who they went to. I gave my word I wouldn't disclose his name at the time and still decline to do so. It's my belief that Dianne Garrity the lady who actually financed the Reptile Breeding Foundation had a lot to do with the decision on who it went to. Needless to say I wound up with many of the snakes. As far as I know I probably kept and bred more of them than anyone did. Where they all are now, who knows? Personally I have tracked down and purchased as many Epicrates as I can find but there are still MANY single specimens sitting in collections doing nothing but getting older. There is a small group of us that are tracking down and buying anything and everything we can to preserve bloodlines and to continue breeding projects....Sorry for the rant and that was probably more info than anyone wanted....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Look for the Slaven's reptile list. The Slaven's kept a very nice record of who had what animals back before herpetoculture took off and got big. They put out an annual list of what zoos and private individuals had and produced. Obviously they did not have information for many breeders but their zoo info was pretty thorough. I remember seeing quite a few of the insular Epicrates in zoo and private collections on the list back in the 80s. Perhaps some of the animals Huff had worked with would show up on the list in Canadian collections in the years after Huff got rid of them.

Is Frank Slavin still putting out the inventory book? I haven't seen one in over twenty years. Though it was good to have kicking around. Anyone know if he is still at Woodland Park?
I often refer to ISIS these days, but there aren't many Epicrates listed.

I had forgotten Slaven's first name. He and his wife Kate did the list. I do not think they have done it since the early 90s. I had not seen anything about Epicrates in Canada since around that time (except for the CITES website). On the CITES website you can find information on all legal international traffic of wildlife. There would be info there that would show any subflavius going into or out of Canada.

I have a couple Slaven's lists/books around somewhere-I'll try to find them on Wed or so and see what falls out. I made some submissions back then for some of the rare stuff that I had at the time.
Jeff
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Jeff Murray
www.boa-subspecies.com