Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a great new clutch of albinos het green and normals double het green and albino.

Out of 26 eggs all were fine accept 1 which has a lot of kinks. I am a little bummed out . I am quite sure that the temps were stable - I checked multiple times daily.

Aside from heat spikes does anyone know what causes kinking?

I also had one egg that had twins, but one of the snakes in that egg didn't make it, the other did. It would have been so cool to have twins. Another one has some really cool striping - I'll post some pics later.

Rick

Embryo development is not perfect and kinks happen. For whatever reason, the embryo just didn't form properly and it more than likely would have done the same thing in anyone's incubator. I dont think that it's anything that you did wrong and I wouldn't look at genetic weakness either. If you had half a clutch that was kinked...that would be a different story but a kink in the spine and sometimes gross deformities randomly occur in an otherwise perfect clutch. All that being said, make sure that you keep an eye on the temperatures all around in your incubating box where your eggs are, sometimes there is a degree variance in the front and back or the sides depending of where your heat source is and if you are already at the high end or low end of the incubating temps, 1 degree might make a difference.

This year I experimented a little bit with temps. Normally I incubate at a steady 88.5-89.5 This year (after reading what Kelly Haller wrote that maternally, burms incubate at 92.0) I incubated some eggs at 90.5 - 91.5 and had just as successful of a hatch rate with no abnormalities. Which to me, means that there is a pretty large range of safety for burm eggs and if you keep an eye on the temps, use a good incubator, good heat source and good thermostat, there should be little problem with temp induced abnormalities.

Congrats on your clutch and I hope that helps a little...

Tom

www.tomreaganreptiles.com

I agree that the incubating temperature range is greater than most people realize. Last year & the year before I incubated my Burmese python eggs at 92 degrees F. This year I alternated between 90 - 91, mostly at 91, for testing purposes. I believe the important factors of good incubation are as follows:

1 - Knowing exactly what the temperature is by using quality measuring devices (the more devices, until you can actually trust one or two, the better).

2 - An incubator that seals good, not letting temps/humidity escape.

3 - Proper heat source placement so that the tub(s) are heated evenly throughout. If using large incubators, like a converted fridge, temps can easily vary a degree or two from shelf to shelf, front to back, etc... Small computer fans can help fix this.

Let me point out a few key words or phrases from your post, Rick, that leads me to wonder about temp fluctuations in your case:

* I am quite sure that the temps were stable - I checked multiple times daily.

If you had to open your incubator to check the temps it lost some heat & could've spiked rebuilding it. When I fisr set my converted fridge up a few years ago I ran it for a few weeks before putting eggs in it. I checked it about once a day or once every other day for the first week or two, after I saw it was stable I only checked the internal temps once a week. This year I only checked it every two weeks or so. That's because after two years of proper operation I trusted it. I just made sure it had power & that was it.

* Another one has some really cool striping

The only thing that I know that causes striping on Burmese pythons is temperatures being too high. Was the kinked snake's egg next to the striped one?

As for the potential twin - that happens from time to time and is just one of nature's things. I had the same thing happen to me last year. One snake formed & hatched while it's potential twin never developed. The one that hatched was smaller than the rest of the clutch, and in my case, she didn't make it. She never ate and I might've waited too long to force feed her. When I did force feed her the stress of it killed her within a few hours aftwards. It broke my heart, too, like you feel about the kinked snake. Don't let it get to you, but it's good to see that you care so much about 'em all.

In the photo below, the smaller snake is the supposed twin with the undeveloped embryo seen. I put one of the other, average size hatchlings in the pic with it for size referrence.

Hang in there!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Thanks HH,

I may have made a misleading statement. When I said I checked the temps multiple times daily, what I meant was this:

I had 4 thermometers set up inside the egg bins (meaning the probes), but the readout was outside of the incubator. I was checking the status of the internal temperature multiple times daily without opening the incubator or egg box.

I do not trust that I have the best thermometers though. I've been through a lot of them in the last couple of years and can not seem to find ones that I completely trust. Does anyone have any suggestions of the best ones on the market and where to get them?

Thanks - I'll try to post some pictures of the babies later.

Rick

Nah, your "checking temps" statement wasn't misleading - I just wanted to point out a possible scenario for setups that require opening the incubator/tubs to check temps to make sure that you & anyone else reading in the background had considered it.

I've got two Helix DBS 1000 thermostats and one Herp Pro II, and they all are well within 1 - 2 tenths of a degree from my Raytek temp gun.

The indoor/outdoor thermometers that I use are Acurite model # 008910. They're not the wirelss ones, they have about a 6ft probe. They record high/low temps & high/low humidity. I've found them to be quite accurate, within a few tenths of a degree.

I used to be able to get 'em at my local Wal-Mart for less than $15 but haven't seen any of that particular model in awhile. They can be found online, though.

Did you use four of the same type of thermometers or different types?

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I used all the same type of thermometer - not wireless and also with a 6ft probe. I'm not at the shop and I don't recall the name. I bought them at Radio Shack. The reason I don't trust them is because the do not show the same temp across all 4 even at room temp. They very about a degree up or down (not much, but enough to scare me).

I use Helix thermostat also. I had it set at 89, but it spiked to 90 a few times before turning off. 90 should be okay, but it still concerned me. It is odd because none of my Helix controlers ever go over the programmed heat setting in the cages, but for some reason it did in the incubator.

Thanks for the guidance. I have a few ball python clutches on the way (they are easier to incubate), but I think I will get online and try to find some of those thermometers.

I'll look you up again later for your refridgerator design. I want to build a new incubator for next year.

Thanks,
Rick

"I used all the same type of thermometer... The reason I don't trust them is because... all 4 varied about a degree up or down (not much, but enough to scare me)."

Ha! Definitely a cause for alarm.

I got lucky in finding mine. I started out with two of the ones I mentioned earlier & they were within a few tenths of a degree of each other. I used them in cages at that time, before I built my incubator. Over the next few months I picked up some more of the same type and all but one maintained that accuracy. The one that didn't was off just less than a full degree, but out of 4 or 5, it was the only one.

"I use Helix thermostat also. I had it set at 89, but it spiked to 90 a few times before turning off."

This was most likely due to thermostat probe placement and/or heat source type, placement, etc, rather than a problem with the Helix unit.

It's really a science, or art, to getting everything to work in unison. Takes some trial & error, a lot of finessing. I started out with two 75-watt incandescent bulbs as my heat source, placed at the bottom, in my converted fridge. With the thermostat probe in the tub with the eggs, and the tub placed on the top shelf of the fridge. I got spikes of higher than desired temps.

I replaced the two 75-watt bulbs with two 25-watt bulbs and practically eliminated the temp spikes. This year I placed the thermostat probe directly under the tub instead of inside it and had even steadier temps inside the tub. (The shelf the tub the sits on is the older style metal wire/grate fridge shelf, so the shelf was not blocking the heat rising from the bulbs.) Since heat rises, the 8 or so inches of space above the tub in my incubator heats up before the inside of the tub does. However, there's usually less loss of heat inside the tubs than in the incubator, itself. A lot of factors, but not as complicated or difficult to achieve as one might suspect.

"I'll look you up again later for your refridgerator design. I want to build a new incubator for next year."

By all means, give me a yell. However I'm not saying that my way is the perfect or best way. I've seen several nice lookin' incubators people built from scratch, not using refridgerators or freezers. ArtInScales has one. There are a lot of good ideas out there, you just need to find one particular style that you feel comfortable working with. That's all I did.

I've got an old chest freezer that I'm planning on converting to an upright incubator to give me more room for more eggs next year. I'm sure I'll post the progress and instructions online just in case it might help someone or give someone other ideas to build a better one.

Show off some of those hatchlings.

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Rick,
The Helix systems are very nice and will maintain the temps within a very narrow range. However, no matter what type of thermostat a person is using, you never know how close to the true temp they are running. It's great to have a thermostat that holds the temp between 89.5 and 90.0, but is it really there or actually 88.0 to 88.5? I have always been picky about this and believe you need to have some way to check and verify temps for certain. Temp guns are handy for everyday use with cages, but most are only accurate to within two or three degrees. The best way is a good mercury lab thermometer. I have an NIST traceable thermometer I purchased in the early 80's that is certified to within one-tenth of a degree that I use to check all of my other temp measurement devices or other thermometers. It's really a little much for many people because a new one now runs about $300. The next best thing is an ASTM mercury lab thermometer. ERTCO makes some that run around $75 to $100. These are accurate to within two or three-tenths of a degree of the true temperature and would be good for checking the accuracy of any cage temp measuring device or incubator thermostat reading. The only thing to be certain of if you purchase one is that it is the total immersion type.

I would agree with Tom that you should watch for variations within the incubator that could cause temperature differentials within the incubation chamber. Kinking abnormalities can occur due to slightly high temps and slightly low temps are strongly associated with non-genetic striping. I don’t believe that this is necessarily the cause within your clutch, because as Tom pointed out, the numbers affected were very small in this case but it is interesting that both occurred in this one group. Kinking can also be a developmental flaw that occurs under perfect conditions as I have seen a couple of cases with maternally incubated Burmese clutches. However, I have never seen a case of striping with a maternally incubated clutch. Also pretty interesting that you had twins as well. Keep up the good work.

Kelly

"...slightly low temps are strongly associated with non-genetic striping."

Thanks for correcting my misinformation, Kelly. I've never encountered striping in my clutches but I vaguely remember some discussion about it here a year or two ago. For reasons unknown to me at the moment I was under the impression that it was high temps that caused it.

Later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Hey Mike,
I have heard reports as well of non-genetic striping being caused by elevated incubation temps, but nothing that is definitive or having been substantiated. I am not saying that it is impossible that high temps could cause striping, but the vast majority of the data points to low incubation or gestation temps as one of the main causes. Everything else you stated in this thread was right on as usual. Thanks again,

Kelly