Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...but I guess Im just a total dum*ass

"Dear Michelle,

Your email to Iced Mice was passed onto me. First let me tell you about myself. I have my degree in animals sciences and have been a licensed veterinary technician for over 20 years. I am certified in nutrition and animal behavior. I have had the pleasure of working with Dr. George Kramer, Dr. Don Factor, Dr Barbara Kingsbourogh, Dr Marshall Breite just to name a few. I have worked at the Bronx zoo with more species than you can imagine. I have had the pleasure of sitting at round tables with Dr. Mader and Dr. Frye.

Lizards (as well as other species) get impactions from hair. Actually, most people think it only happens to cats. Hair can coalesce into a ball within the stomach and act as a gastric foreign body. The medical term is TRICHOBEZOAR.. I have anesthetized, intubated and assisted in over 30 celiotomy procedures. Not only does hair coalesce, also grass will and some substrates do. Well, after all, how could a tiny grain of sand cause an impaction? I am not attacking you. I am trying to educate you. May I suggest you try some basic reading materials such as reptile magazine. (Reptile Magazine Feb. 1998 has articles about monitors and feeding. Read page 16 "...It is true that many monitors are able to consume rodents without any problems...Rodents which contain a great deal of fat and hair, can cause problems such as hepatic lipidosis and hair impactions...)My library includes that periodical as well as Mader-Reptile Medicine and Surgery and several books by Dr. Frye. Might I suggest in the future you ask how the hair causes impaction instead of assuming the author is misinforming people. I think you owe Mimikos1 an apology. By the way I think you should know-Pete (Mimikos1), has been breeding reptiles and involved their rescue for over 30 years and he helped develop, create and install the environments for the reptiles at a number of zoos, including but not limited to the Bronx and San Diego zoos.

I think your email was sent to me because some one found humor in it's ignorance. I, like you, feel the need to educate people about the care and husbandry of many species. I do not claim to be an expert, however my colleagues and peers feel I am. It sounds to me like you think you're an expert. That kind of recognition comes from others, not one's self. Please share with me your credentials. Really, I am not attacking you I am just trying to offer some advice and guidance.

As for (DELETED), who may I say has had many accomplishments with monitors, has tried to convince me (and others) that Varanus acanthurus would change sex to create a breeding group. Yup, he told me if I got 5 males, if I housed them together some of them would change to females. I was told this at the Daytona Show in 2001, by (DELETED) while eating lunch with him at Hog Haven. Keith McPeek and his wife as well as Bob Pound also heard this amazing claim. My point being don't believe everything you hear.

Well I hope I cleared up your confusion and hope to hear from you. If I can be of any help in the future, contact me.

Margaret Tamas, Phd Animal Sciences, BS Biology, ASS veterinary medicine,LVT, USDA, NYSWR

Texas Lunachick"

Hahahahahahahaha, first, let me say, If he was talking about me, I assure you, I have never said, that any monitor changes sexes. Let me repeat, never. What I have observed is, when we raised groups together, we always recieve both sexes. Also, when we raise two hatchlings together we normally recieve a pair(99%of the time)(i added that because, i cannot remember it not happening). We have been watching this for many years now and it has continued. Let me repeat what I have said many times, either I am the luckist person on earth, or something funny is happening. Also, remember, I have bred colubrids and pythons for many years and often recieved clutches that contained only one sex. I also, never said that they are one sex or the other. But what I said is, if these animals are both sexes geneticly, then they do a very good job of masking themselves as females. I have many many questions reguarding this, for instance, looking at one species, at times, I can sex them within a month, at other times, I can't sex them for many months. Some individuals show secondary charactoristics are a small size and others of the same clutch, do not until very large. Please ask others here about this.

As you why these people twist and turn what I say, I cannot tell you. But this subject has been talked about many times on this forum and if you check the archieves, you will see that my comments are consistant.

Let me remind you, no one has been able to sex monitors at hatching with any method, period. Not X-ray, sonogram, or with bloodtests, popping, scales, etc. We can go on and on about this. But you get the point.

About hair on mice. All I can say is, healthy monitors noramlly consume prey that includes feathers, fur, scales, etc. We have regularly fed mice for many many many many generations of monitors. This includes many many many species. I have shown this time and again. Why our monitors do not get hair impactions, I cannot say other then, they are healthy. To add to this, I have kept monitors regularly since 1991 and have produced just over 1500 clutches of monitors. Please do not take that as bragging. I am saying that because for some reason we have avoided both impactions and Respitory deseases. We have had four cases of Calicum deficiency. We have avoided the commonly seen vet deseases. In truth, I cannot explain why. With the main thought being, I allow the monitors to pick temps and controll their own moisture levels. That means they always have places to hide, burrow, etc. In the past, I have fed medium to large monitors, cottontails, which are extremely hairy, I never saw a problem there either.

I do recomend calling Dr. Nader and Dr. Fry yourself, as they may be able to clarify this for you, in their words. I again am leary of the ones who spout, so and so and so and so, and Dr. so and so. etc. If Drs. Nader and Fry, seek information from me, I will gladly help them, as I too am curious above why I do not see such things.

Why don't you do a survey of the people who feed mice, and please concentrate on which ones are successful(raising and breeding monitors) and which ones are inexperienced. I would guess that on this forum, it would be very rare to see hair compactions.

Let me remind you, I have murdered monitors in many odd and unusual ways. Just not these common ways. F

With these two particular subjects, it does not matter if I am right or wrong, as It does not effect how I keep my monitors. Remember, I am not the one having problems. Also, hopefully it shouldn't effect others.

People who are looking for pairs of monitors to breed, must educate themselves on how to sex monitors. Its not my responsibility. If I sell someone a sexed pair and I make a mistake, its my obligation to make it right, Not theirs.

If you have problems with hair balls,(hahahahahahaha) then your obligation is to seek a vet. My recomendation is to follow that vets advice.

Again, I have been consistant in others seeking and following a vets advice. Thanks F

Are you saying that a monitors sex is NOT predetermined after hatching?

Lou~

It may be the reason for all the misunderstandings. I did not say anything, I (for the seventh million time) conveyed some observations. Observations are events that I saw. I have no ability or reason to make deductions of these observations. Just simply something I saw. I continue to test some of this, and it continues to result in the same events, but I make no deductions.

Now you should really ask yourself, why YOU feel the need to make observations into deductions.

Hopefully, a person that has the ability to test these observations will someday do so. After strict tests and research, then they may make deductions and both you and I may question those results. Try and understand what I am saying, please. F

Are you seeing that a monitor's sex is not predetermined after hatching? Maybe you are just the luckiest guy in town.

Lou~

You'd THINK that snakes would be getting impacted with hair left and right, if it were as common as all that in monitors. Most pet breeds of snakes don't eat a 100% mammal diet in the wild either. But they're not, so what do they have that monitors don't?
I'm also curious what this person wants people to feed 5 and 6 foot monitors. No alternative is given.

He and his advice killed a few of my monitors so I switched to researching a good herp vet that knows what hes doing. Evidence my monitors are healthy arent they, improved husbandry made the biggest difference. Ive never had an impaction occur with any of my reptiles let alone my monitors yet I kept some too cool, too dry, fed rodnets chickens etc, and made so many mistakes which cost some of them their lives. I wish for official research conclusions vets used lie detectors when questioning an owners husbandry. How bad must an animal be kept or abused to have impactions occur?? I cant imagine the conditions that cause that. But those conditions are considered inhumane and cruel as well are illegal here in the US arent they??? And any questions about why the humane society doesnt want us to keep them as pets, they are justified every time these abuses occur, impulse buying is wrong, unless you go all out and do it the right way and stay for the long haul, its called responibility.

Hello Shvar,
Youre monitors are very healthy indeed. Do you find that increased heat is what caused overall better health and progress? Or were there other factors in husbandry involved? Thanks.

A high temp basking spot, a good temp gradient, higher humidity, dirt, dirt I cant say it too many times DIRT makes a big difference. It does several things after all hiding tunneling humidity, security, etc etc and alot easier to clean, and no smell (almost) when they crap in it. More room, exercise, whole animal foods(mice, hissers, and peeps. Crickets and lobster roaches for the ackie). Multiple bulb assemblies with 45 watt bulbs for basking lights. Its a combination of many things and then some. Sobek basking temps according to the new temp gun are about 158-165 with the 2 layer stack over her hole in the dirt. My ackie has a basking temp over 180 in the center. They both use those high temps frequently.

My vet is constantly talking about impaction... maybe it's what they learn in vet school. The only animal I've had with a foreign body impaction problem was a frog that managed to eat some gravel.

Heres one of my skeletons...
Nealy 2 years ago I accepted a baby Ackie from a friend. He was afraid that he was going to kill it because all its toes were rotting off, and he couldnt get it to stop. So I accepted the little guy. I put him shallow layer mulch substrate that maintained the humidity and he recieved antibiotics for the primary and possible secondary infections. He began improving right away. Then it happened. One day active, the next day dead. I had him opened up and found a pepple about the size of his head in his intestinal tract! I still dont understand how he found that rock, and furthermore, actually be able to swallow it. Since then Ive never been able to bring myself to having this species in my care.

I'm the same way with that poor frog (Pipa pipa). I had him on a sand substrate and some stray pieces of aquarium gravel got in with the feeder fish. He ate a couple of them right away.
Sometimes stuff like that happens despite our best efforts...