Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Somewhere in the thread below (it's got somewhat confused, therefore I start a new one) it was stated that the people in Europe are misinformed by their medias.

So maybe we are not correctly informed.

Therefore I ask you to enlighten us as to following questions:

Please name the source that Iraq was involved in 11/9

Please name the source that Iraq was involved in terrorism against the U.S.

Please name the source that weapons of mass desctruction had been found in Iraq.

If you are not able to answer to this please be objective and state that this war was illegal (it was illegal anyway because of the missing consent of the United Nations) and not necessary.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

There is nothing confusing about the thread below and you know it! Funny how you just love to ride Herpsco's coat-tails. In any case, who are you to ask for sources when you NEVER give sources or even a shred of concrete evidence to support your defamations of this country? Besides, any sources will just be slandered by you and you know it. As far as WMD are concerned, I've stated countless times that Hussein was a WMD! Did you know that he had miles and miles of tunnels and bunkers that will take a very long time to explore and those tunnels would make it very easy to transport WMD even to other countries. You know as well as I do that WMD aren't easy to find. Why do you think they gave the UN inspectors such a hard time? Hmmm? You don't suppose that it was so they could buy time to juggle them between hiding spots do you? You couldn't possibly fathom such a complex idea, lol. Perhaps you have information that Saddam never supported or "funded" terrorism in any way. If you really believe that, you're not dealing with reality! Give it a break Hermy. The real reason you posted up here was to divert the attention from your recent post below where you referred to our troop's cowardliness. How about the statement where you accuse us of (my personal favorite) going to Iraq to "rule the Middle East and control their oil". LMAO!!! We'll do all the thinin' aroun' here Bobbalewie. I hope people take the time to read your terrific stories below before entertaining this irrelevant post. Have a nice day!

I don't know about Herman's occupation, but I am a scientist. As a scientist, I rely on evidence before I make statements. There is a great saying which might help you:

"Correlation is no proof of cause or effect"

Now, why should we answer where our evidence is? We don't have any. Our angle here is the opposite, you see. The apparent LACK of evidence. Weapons grade uranium was found in Iran last year, and yet apparently that was acceptable at the time. That, my friend is what you might refer to as 'evidence.' I personally hoped when this conflict began that I would be proved wrong. That the so called WMD would be found. I agree with you in one sense that I think WMD's can be anything. Two years ago they were two planes for example. But saying Saddam is a weapon of mass destruction is ridiculous. His regime has probably killed less people than the US has in the last 6 months. But apparently there's a difference. I don't know what that is, but then maybe I don't see the bigger picture?

Continuously having digs at myself and Herman proves nothing. We have a right to an opinion. America is free, and like the lovely Judy said I believe, freedom of speech is something to be celebrated. So when someone disagrees with you, you have to learn to accept it! Don't resort to references to Nazi's etc. Just accept that we think differently to you. Period.

You believe that your government hasn't told any lies. The majority of England though the same until about 2 months ago. Now we know that the threats of '45 minutes' etc were exagerrated. You fail to understand that we are free to look at all newspapers online. We can access say Al Jazeera, to see the Arabic take on all of this. We can look at online media from anywhere in the world. We can be OBJECTIVE. That's the difference between you and I! I don't just listen to my government and think that all they say is correct. I am not so naiive. But, I understand that at times some small lies help their cause. But it's also helped kill close to 4,00 people at the same time. You see, so I shouldn't just sit back and applaud!

Keep objective, and respect other peoples opinions. You don't see me calling you small minded or an idiot. No, you see reasoning and a quest for some other opinions. Who knows, if you can convince me, I may believe that all this has been for a good cause. Because, like I say, as a scientist, I go on evidence. Unlike yourself!

But you don't go on evidence, you just admitted that. And this is not a science project. Pulling invertebrates out of puddles or whatever to see if the water is safe in South America does not make you any more of an expert on the issues of war than anyone else here. So don't bother going there, professor. I'm going to go try to find a post where I called you "small-minded" or "idiot". I doubt I'll find it...I'll get back to you on that. I'll also try to find the post where I said you are not entitled to your opinion. I'll have a tough time finding that one too. As far as evidence is concerned, I know a few people in the military who are in Iraq as we speak. How's that for first hand knowledge? Or perhaps you'll find a way to discredit those who are actually living the truth. Do you have sources over there? By the way, in your post above, you said you wanted to avoid a "long-winded" thread and just wanted a simple yes/no answer to one question. Why are you now trying to further antagonize this issue? Yet another discrepancy in the grand scheme of your posts, lol. I think you guys enjoy ganging up on me as much as I enjoy watching you struggle to somehow discredit me. You and Stoeckl are competing so hard to be the one who shot "Billy the Kid", that you've forgotten that anyone else even exists on this forum. The funny thing is, I'm just a simple construction worker with a simple high school education and just enough common sense to be a thorn in your sides, LMAO. That's gotta' leave a mark. All that energy waisted on lil ole me.

You really make me laugh. So your evidence, is that you have a couple of buddies in Iraq? Right...........and that means?? I have eyes you know, I see plenty of soldiers in Iraq - what is that supposed to tell me?

You don't resepct our right to have an opinion, and have resorted to some rude comments to try to make yourself look clever. I have simply posed a couple of questions and made a couple of statements, based on the intelligence that is released to the public. And, from that, I am even more suspicious than ever that this whole affair has NOTHING to do with WMD's etc. The story hasn't been straight the whole way along. I'm sorry if I should think this a little weird. Follow thy leader eh?

And please, don't even try to belittle my work!

Belittle your work? You brought your work into this as if it was relevant to the issue, lol. It isn't. In any case, I've never even insinuated that you do not have the right to an opinion. If you are constantly going to submit posts that in any way defame a country that someone else is proud of on a PUBLIC forum, you should expect a little opposition and stop whining about it like a baby! If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. We all "see" plenty of soldiers in Iraq. How many have you actually spoken with? By the way, just because our government doesn't personally give YOU the information YOU want doesn't mean it's not there. Real "intellegence" doesn't just get "released". You know that. How bout I give the president a call and have him keep you personally informed of all our intellegence and secrets? Would that make you happy?

I couldn't find "resepct" in the dictionary, Mr. educated scientist. In any case, I appreciate that you think I'm "clever". Thanks for the compliment!

I just want to say I love your posts ......Hermann and HC have an extremely pompous attitude, that is a fact not name calling. Being a university boy does not make one an authority on current events. I do not care what Europeans think of America or Americans......if Hermann and HC are representative of their countries, then they are the perfect example for why I don't care what they and their countries think of us. We Americans should no longer spend our hard earned dollars visiting these wastelands that depend so heavily on American tourism. Why would we want to go to such bigoted countries that view Americans the way Hermann and HC have stated, it makes no sense to support these people any longer. You, ScottishCLK, have brought out their true colors ......yellow for pansy and soon to be black and blue after the terrorist are through with them and they live under the rule of Islam. I have tried to ignore their arrogant and insulting posts, because replying to them only gives them credence. But I am tired of them slinging their dung at us, they remind me of monkeys in a zoo.

Keep up the good work you lowly construction worker .....you are doing a great job.

"Lowly construction worker" LMAO!!! Thank you for that great post. Although you and Judy don't post that often, your posts are music to my ears! Once again you hit the nail on the head. Thanks again!

Ayy, yes, just because we make some observations, and question the media / government means we are just a joke. Oh, and I mispelled a word. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Would it be so wrong if we did follow Islam? You have a lot to learn!

I don't think that you can spend much money in Europe with only a handful days of vacation that you get in your country.

Therefore we will survive when you decide not to come anymore.

By the way, have you ever been in Europe? Are you able to find Paris on the map at all?
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Many of us know where Paris is located on the map but scholastically (geographically) our kids (and some adults) could do better. Oh, I know, we could probably find mars or venus pretty easily. FYI, we sent a spacecraft there. We've also been to the moon. Has your country done any space travel yet? Has your country dodged bullets while your soldiers attempted to feed the starving in Africa? Have there been any great accomplishments since the weinerschnitzel?
I'm just being facetious. Actually, I'm wondering if you admire anything about the USA. That's sincere.

Stroeckl comes from the most despicable country on the planet. The atrocities perpetrated by his ancestors were second to none. He and his sorry comrades are preoccupied with blocking out the past, therefore, there's not much thought given to current and future events. Space travel is better left to the civilized world. Stroeckl is unhappy that the rest of the world has moved on, amd every chance he gets, he criticizes the US in the hopes of dragging us down to his lowly level. Sorry envious one, but your ill- wishes have no bearing on our reality.

Snake Feller

To the Master of Mindless Drivel: Most Americans have no interest whatsoever in visiting your filthy little Euro-trash country, nor Paris for that matter. My "handful of vacation days" is six weeks, like many other Americans. I could spend as much time in Europe as I want, and I do. That would be ZERO days. By the way, what good does six weeks vacation do for you when you have no money to spend?

Snake Feller

Listen, take the time to read exactly WHY I introduced my line of work. It was merely in response to a question along the lines of "what do you do to help the environment?" Nothing else. I simply made a comment regarding the US' abuse of the environment (and yes..I know you're not the only ones, we're all guilty - but some more than others!!), and the question was then towards me. So........reading a comment about folling around in puddles or whatever you said IS belittling!

Regarding intelligence...yes I know it doesn't just get released. It simply gets poached from a ten year old PhD thesis!

And believe me, your president and my prime minister would like NOTHING more right now to find some evidence! And they would make it public very quickly, because both of them have the next elections very much in mind!

Actually, the post Chris refers to had nothing to do with the environment. You began your post in THIS thread by saying "I don't know about Herman's occupation, but I am a scientist. As a scientist, I rely on evidence before I make statements." Which seems to imply that you're somehow better than anyone who isn't a scientist, as such people can't or won't use evidence to formulate their opinions or beliefs.

I just re-read your post and you brought up the "scientist" reference to give yourself the appearance of being a hotshot. Nothing more. It was in reference to "evidence", not the environment. Now your making things up.

Well, actually, if you care to look further down you will see that I have refered to my work in the past. In fact, I suspect you already have because how else would you have known I work with aquatic organisms? It could have been a wild guess however, but if you'd like to ask say Gail, she'd tell you that my occupation HAS been discussed here in the past.

I don't claim to be any hotshot. I work part time in the construction industry and have no great claims that either is any more important than the other. Both require highly skilled individuals.

Oh, and as you feel the need to correct my spelling, it's you are or you're, not your (making things up)! I personally don't feel the need to resort to picking out pathetic typo's like that. Only I know your mistake wasn't a typo!

We're not dicussing the past here. Your little diversionary tactic won't work. You know as well as I that your reference in THIS recent thread is what we are dicussing. Not what was said months ago. The fact is, you brought up the fact that you are a scientist in a pompous attempt to somehow portray yourself as superior with regard to this issue. Nice try though. By the way, people expect a lowly construction worker with a highschool diploma to make mistakes in grammar. But such an educated "scientist" such as yourself should be setting an example and should not be making MORE mistakes than a big dum-dum head like me. NEXT!

So you know some US soldiers that are in Iraq and you think they are a reliable source?

Let me tell you something: Soldiers have to do two things:
Fight and obey the orders of their commander.

They are drilled to avoid thinking and to question the sense of their objectives.

A soldier is the incarnation of the narrow-mindedness. And he needs to be, otherwise he would not serve his purpose.

If a soldier is been told that the snow is black by Mr. President he will state that the snow is black and everyone who claimes that the snow is white will be his most hateful enemy.

So much as to your "sources".
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Your view of American military personel is incredibly flawed and apparently based on old, fictitious war films and/or books. Yes, soldiers are trained to follow orders, but they are also trained to think.

They are trained to use their eyes and ears and brains. I've no doubt that there are bad apples among the fine military personel, but most of them are courageous and ethical people who grieve at the lives they are forced to take. NONE of them do it lightly, though in the heat of battle and the rush of the aftermath, it might seem that way to outsiders who get a 30 second news clip video of the scene.

You don't get to see the man puking his guts up until he feels like his lungs are turning inside-out because he killed a child in a car that looked like a threat. You don't see the incredible sacrifices made by the families of men and women gone for months and months at a time...many of whom will never come home at all. You think these people would be over there pouring their hearts and souls into the lives of another nation if they didn't believe it was the RIGHT thing to do?

My husband is not over there right now, for which I'm eternally grateful. But I know because of his job and contacts, he has a great deal more insight than I EVER will about what is going on. And I know my husband, a man with extremely high integrity and very strong beliefs...and a will of iron to back up those beliefs. If he thought we were so off base...so greedy as to go to war over something so trivial as a poor country's oil...he would resign his commision in a heartbeat and take a MUCH safer and better paying job in the civilian world.

Get to know that which you hold in such derision...I dare you.

Sorry to enlighten you, but I doubt if your husband knows any more about all of this than we do! He takes orders! Unless he is in the highest ranks, I doubt if he knows little more than we see in the world media. You will argue this point, and personally I don't care. I too have friends in the military, and have had some interesting chats. None of which I might add have made the blindest difference to how I feel about this situation. Only time will tell!

You and your posts are incapable of "enlightening" anyone(except maybe Herman'lol). Nothing will ever make the "blindest difference" to an Anti-American such as yourself. Not even time. If and when we do find WMD over there, you'll accuse us of planting them there, lol. That won't hold much water. If we were going to do that we would have done it already. Anyway, I don't think Bush is capable of doing something so "underhanded" or "diabolical".

I wouldn't begin to "enlighten" you about what you and your friends talk about, or what experiences they may or may not have had. How on God's green earth could I possibly know? And neither, kind sir, can you possibly know anything about my husband's experiences or knowledge.

You really do seem so dead-set in your position that you can't even assume someone on the planet knows more about it than you do.

Unless you can do me the courtesty of responding to my answers to YOUR questions, without insulting either my husband or my intelligence, I will quit myself completely of this discussion.

Most sincerely,
Judy

As a person with military education I disagree with you. The low-ranked soldier has to comply orders and not to think about it.

He has not to question the reasons of a war. This would make him a bad soldier.

That he griefs about the lives he has to take: Here I agree. Most of them do and many of them hesitate to shoot. Did you knew this?
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Is your "military education" founded on American Armed Forces or German? Don't confuse discipline with mindlessness.

I didn't mean to imply that German military is "mindless". I worded that incorrectly. I meant don't confuse the meanings of those two words.

Yes, I know. And I know they follow orders (I said as much), mostly without question. (I say "mostly" because they are also trained when and how to question grieviously incorrect orders. Did you know that?) But our soldiers are not autobots or "narrow-minded" puppets. If things were as amiss over there as you believe they are, then the soldiers would be talking about it. They would still do their job, but they would not be silent about what they see and hear.

And before you say "Well, they've been ORDERED to remain silent and only tell what the government wants the world to hear..." it is laughable to think you could clamp down hundreds of thousands of American voices when they have something they believe must be heard. Yes, they are soldiers who will follow orders unto their own death if need be...but they are also Americans who speak their minds, and no president could change that.

Okay, this just made the top of the list for "most hair-brained" post EVER! Are you kidding me? Maybe German soldiers are brainwashed that way (wouldn't be a difficult task), but our soldiers are human beings, not robots. How can you make such an accusation like that when you've never been in the U.S. military? Let me answer that...YOU CAN'T! You know SQUAT about our military. Earlier you insinuated that our soldiers are cowardly, now this. You guys keep on saying that you are simply giving your innocent opinions and this is clearly insulting!

Every soldier (at least the low-ranked ones)in every nation is trained to obey and not to discuss every order.

How could a war be won with a bunch of discussing troopers?

What I wrote is especially valid for a professional army like the one in the U.S.

The U.S. soldiers are not cowards. They just use their high-tech equipment. They fight the way they think it will be successful.

But I would not describe people as cowardly who hide in caves to elude the high-tech weapons and strike back when they see fit to do so. This is their way of fighting against high-tech weapons.

It's called guerilla tactics.

And if you call them cowardly for this way of fighting one has the same right to call the U.S. army cowardly for their way of fighting. Valiantly would be to fight with the same weapons.
Or would you regard me as a hero when I go into a fight when I have a gun in my hand and the opponent has only a knive?

Am I right or am I right?
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I disagree! They will never be anything less than spineless cowards as far as I'm concerned.
If someone attacked your loved ones or even your friends wielding a knife with the intent to kill them and you pulled out a gun and shot that parasite, I would definitely call you a hero! See where I'm going with this? Am I right or am I right?

"Valiantly would be to fight with the same weapons"

Once again the babbling German infant has completely missed the point.

Snake Feller

well well well, did someone listen to Warpigs a little too much? so soldiers are just mindless drones who's only purpose is to follow orders.

Well being a soldier in iraq right now and using my time on break to email you and your cooments you should feel special. well onto it then.

First of all, you have no right to say anything about american soldiers because you are not american and your country and its leaders are spineless jellyfish that are upset cause they arent getting any cheap oil anymore.

i beg you to come over here and express your views to the thusands of troops, soldiers and airmen here that stand in line for upwards of an hour just to get some cold eggs, or a burnt ot dog, with the only complaints coming out of there mouth is not having a shower in two or three days. sure you can have your beliefs that this war isnt right and that the world was lied to but guess what buddy no matter what you say the war is still going on and will be going on for a long time now. i am not trying to make you think this is right i am giving you a soldiers stand point from the front line.

as far as the iraqis not wanting us here, you are basing this on the news, and media huh. well iraq is a like a tornado in a trailer park, they find the most uneducated hateful spiteful people to ask questions too. everytime i see an iraqi worker or civilian they thank me for being here and freeing them. hell one of them offered me his paycheck.

as far as soldiers as sources i would say they are pretty reliable, and that you need to educate yourself on a soldiers life before you jump to assumptions of soldiers are here to follow orders and not think crap you are spitting out of your mouth. i am telling you come on down and work with me for a while. i have a cot waiting on you

froggy
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The next time the shuttle lands, lets all get dressed up in ape suits and charge at the astronaughts yelling and ranting. That way they can try to figure out where they took a wrong turn.

Please consider submitting this post up top...WHERE IT BELONGS! Thanks for taking the time. I can't speak for everyone here, but I salute you! I'm proud of you and everyone over there representing our country and laying your lives on the line for us... and them. Thank you!

well well well, did someone listen to Warpigs a little too much? so soldiers are just mindless drones who's only purpose is to follow orders.

Well being a soldier in iraq right now and using my time on break to email you and your cooments you should feel special. well onto it then.

First of all, you have no right to say anything about american soldiers because you are not american and your country and its leaders are spineless jellyfish that are upset cause they arent getting any cheap oil anymore.

i beg you to come over here and express your views to the thusands of troops, soldiers and airmen here that stand in line for upwards of an hour just to get some cold eggs, or a burnt ot dog, with the only complaints coming out of there mouth is not having a shower in two or three days. sure you can have your beliefs that this war isnt right and that the world was lied to but guess what buddy no matter what you say the war is still going on and will be going on for a long time now. i am not trying to make you think this is right i am giving you a soldiers stand point from the front line.

as far as the iraqis not wanting us here, you are basing this on the news, and media huh. well iraq is a like a tornado in a trailer park, they find the most uneducated hateful spiteful people to ask questions too. everytime i see an iraqi worker or civilian they thank me for being here and freeing them. hell one of them offered me his paycheck.

as far as soldiers as sources i would say they are pretty reliable, and that you need to educate yourself on a soldiers life before you jump to assumptions of soldiers are here to follow orders and not think crap you are spitting out of your mouth. i am telling you come on down and work with me for a while. i have a cot waiting on you

froggy
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The next time the shuttle lands, lets all get dressed up in ape suits and charge at the astronaughts yelling and ranting. That way they can try to figure out where they took a wrong turn.

Your description of how a soldier thinks what his leaders want him to think reminded me of how the propaganda spewing from your forked tongue is identical to the propaganda spewing from your government's. What a coincidence, huh jackass?

Snakefeller

All the discussions below seem to blend a bit for me, so I'm not going to try and figure out who said exactly what, but simply reply to the things that I took special note of.

First, to answer this thread's questions: I am aware that governments can be dishonest...even our own, yes. I know. But I also see and understand things about Bush that maybe many European and others don't or won't. He's a kind, gentle man who truly wishes nothing more than to defend his country and make the world a better place. He would NOT send our best young men and women into harm's way without a damn good reason for it.

I can't point out the exact evidence that shows a direct link between Saddam and terrorists in general or Bin Laden specifically. Why? Because our government hasn't revealed such to the public. I don't trust OUR newspapers' speculations about such links any more than I trust your "German magazine." It's all speculation until the governments are able to lay concrete evidence on the table. So I won't try to point out any such article, though I've no doubt I could find just as many to support my beliefs as you can yours.

You wonder why we haven't hit Iran or N.Korea for the same reasons we hit Iraq. Who says we won't? I don't know if we will or not. I'm quite sure I hope we don't have to! But I do believe Bush will do what he must to insure our country's security and the security of our allies. However, talking about such things and DOING them are completely different matters. Do you have ANY idea what is involved in going to war with these nations? First there is the political repurcussions, which you are loudly clanging about already...imagine how you'll sound if we follow through with the other threatening countries? Second, there is the physical ability to carry out the needed actions. Our military is already spread frighteningly thin. Do you realize that over 1/2 of our Army personel are deployed around the world right now? They're so thin that when a soldier in Iraq finally gets relieved by freshly incoming troops he gets to go to.....Afganistan! Not to mention the monetary costs involved. Those are just three obvious (no-brainer) points that no one seems to consider when they ask things like "Well why don't you go to war with Iran or N.Korea or Saudi Arabia because they're just as bad?" We had to start somewhere.

In the thread below, one of you made the point that America doesn't bear the scars of a recent, long-sustained war on our landscape like Europe does. This is true, with the exception of Pearl Harbor, but I know even that doesn't compare with the scars still in living memory over there. I honestly hadn't considered that and how it would impact your view on war in general. I can see how it would make a society's general view very "anti-war" at all costs. But the scars you bear don't mean you're right and we're wrong. The scars of wars past don't mean wars could never be the correct path to justice and security. They should be a last resort, of that I'm sure we can all agree.

I believe it was the same person who said that, that also derided our military for using our high-tech weapons against a relatively primative people/society. What else would you have us do??? Should we mount our soldiers on donkeys and give them broken-down machine guns and old, inaccurate rocket launchers so that things are FAIR??? That's ridiculous! Our superior weapons and tactics insured that vastly fewer innocent people were killed than in any previous war, and also ended major combat far faster than anyone would have imagined. How could you possibly deride that choice and ability?

It also seems that most who protest our War on Terrorism miss the point about going to war with specific countries. Do you think that we believe conquering a bunch of countries is going to wipe out terrorists? That is not the point. Yes, we certainly hope to find/capture/kill as many master-minds as possible, but finding individual people is no simple task, nor is it Bush's primary goal. The point of going to war with specific countries is two-fold. One: To make sure they are not capable of distributing WMDs to those who would do us harm...either to other governments or individual terrorists. And Two: To make sure they (and the whole world) understands that knowingly harboring and sheltering terrorists will NOT be tolerated in any way. If all the other countries in the world catch on to that reality, then where can the terrorists go? Sure, they can still hide SOMEwhere...but they will have to be HIDING and won't be supported by any government. They will live in fear of being captured wherever they go. Such a reality would make carrying out large-scale terrorism vastly more difficult than it already is.

Do I think we're there yet? Hardly. Do I think we'll ever get there? I don't know. It's a task of years and years, and not a few lives lost along the way. A price and burden many would not be willing to pay. Bush is willing to pay it. But he is only in office for four years...or if all goes well, four more. And then that's it. Whoever gets into office after him is a mystery. And what they will do with his ongoing war is a complete unknown. I hope it will be someone with the courage and the ability to see the big picture and carry it through.

Does this mean I want to see more war? NO!!! I pray every day that it can all stop. My husband is in the military and it was literally a matter of a few days that kept him out of Baghdad. (The man who replaced my husband at his last job was sent to Baghdad just days after we left and he's still over there.) I dread the day that we'll get called on to make that sacrifice. I hope and pray that there can be diplomatic means to solving this horrible situation the world is finding itself in.

I don't suppose anything I've said will make a dent in anyone's beliefs. Those who already believe it will say "bravo" and those who don't will probably say nothing. But I hope it makes someone think...like the mention of Europe's war scars made me think.

I'm sure there's more I wanted to say, but you probably haven't even read this far.......

Judy

Well Judy, your posts certainly make better reading than do the scottish guy's!

A couple of Q's:
1/ Why do you think these terrorists hate the US so much
2/ Why do you think that this war will change these feelings
3/ Why do you think that the number of terrorists killed will out-weigh the new number of terrorists borne from such bloodshed?

Man, you are a piece of work! The terrorists hate everybody! Why do you find it so important to stress that they hate only us. And they didn't just start hating everyone. And who said anything about changing their feelings? That's a ridiculous statement.

Well thank you. I do get my ire up at you guys sometimes...(all of you, not just those with "opposing views"...but I'm trying to keep things civil.

To answer these questions:

1/ Why do you think these terrorists hate the US so much

First and foremost, we support Isreal. We're Isreal's most powerful and vocal ally. They hate us for that. They hate us because we're powerful and wealthy and therefore, everything we do in this world (in their eyes) is aggressive and selfish, even if it is spending billions of dollars to help their own people. (Not speaking of war here, but in foodstuffs, medicines, and other aid that we've continually sent out to all peoples in need.)

Should the US abandon our allies and friends because a few sick fanatics threaten us because of it? Should we destroy all our fine houses and cars and infrastructure because others in the world don't have such things and are dangerously jealous? Should the entire world turn its back on Isreal and bow to the threat as well, all in the name of peace? Would you have us do so because a few powerful people hold peace hostage by murdering thousands of innocent people every year?

2/ Why do you think that this war will change these feelings

I don't for a moment believe that this war will change anyone's feelings. That's not the point, as I've tried to state repeatedly, but must not be making myself clear. Terrorists will always be terrorists. The world will always have people in it who wish to do great harm to others, for any number of reasons. What we're trying to do, is make the world a place where those people find it nigh unto impossible to actually operate and carry out their evil desires.

3/ Why do you think that the number of terrorists killed will out-weigh the new number of terrorists borne from such bloodshed?

Again, this question misses the point. The impossible, but ideal goal would be to simply eradicate all terrorists while leaving all innocent lives untouched. Even you can't think that is possible, do you? I understand that this war, by its very nature, makes a breeding ground for terrorist propoganda, makes it easier for them to recruit than ever. Which is why it is more important than ever to move as quickly as concievably possible, to making the entire world a hostile place for such people. If even a single country is willing to allow them free rein, then our job is not yet complete.

But such things will take years and years of tremendous sacrifice. And while I do not doubt Bush's motives or reasons for doing as he has done so far...I support his efforts...I do doubt the people's will to continue the effort in the long haul. If this fails, it won't be because it was the wrong thing to do, it will be because we've given up too soon because it was "too hard."

I hope that answers your questions, and if you have more, I will try and address those as well. It's actually easier with specific questions like these, rather than trying to answer rambling arguments that come up in a pixxing contest.

Judy

OK, a couple more for you!

1/ Where is the homeland of the Palestinians, and at what point did the Jews take control of Israel?

2/ Are you by any chance a Jew, because (and I don't mean this in a derogatory sense) you seem incredibly biased towards a group of people that kill dozens of people, woman, children included, a week.

3/ Is the US' attitude towards the Jews in israel in any way swayed by the sheer financial influence they have in your country. If they invaded another country for example, would this still be OK, just because they're your allies?

2/ So even if this war creates a hundred more terrorists for every one killed that should be classed as a success story, and the killing should continue.

OK, a couple more for you!

1/ Where is the homeland of the Palestinians, and at what point did the Jews take control of Israel?

2/ Are you by any chance a Jew, because (and I don't mean this in a derogatory sense) you seem incredibly biased towards a group of people that kill dozens of people, woman, children included, a week.

3/ Is the US' attitude towards the Jews in israel in any way swayed by the sheer financial influence they have in your country. If they invaded another country for example, would this still be OK, just because they're your allies?

2/ So even if this war creates a hundred more terrorists for every one killed that should be classed as a success story, and the killing should continue.

Alright. I would ask though, that if I continue to answer your questions, I'd like to see some rebuttals to those replies that I work so hard on. Unless you want me to assume I leave you speachless with my impeccable logic and wit.

1/ Where is the homeland of the Palestinians, and at what point did the Jews take control of Israel?

I'm not sure of the history of the Palestinians as we know them today, but the general overal history of their peoples is that of scattered nomadic tribes who have felt a deep hatred toward the Jewish people since they first gathered in this world.

The fathers of Judaism first came to the area when God told Abraham he had a new land for him and his children and descendents. Or, if you fully reject any sort of religious implications or faith, then when Abraham thought God sent him to the area. My history is not good enough to show you exactly where he first settled. Generations later, his people had gone to Egypt because of famine in the land, eventually to be enslaved by Egypt. Moses led the enslaved Isrealites out of Egypt and to Isreal. The Isrealites have held claim to the land ever since, no matter how many times they have been scattered by conquering nations. It's a fascinating history to study, whether you believe in the Jewish or Christian faiths or not. You may not believe that Moses miraculously parted the Red Sea, but it is irrefutable fact that the Isrealites have held that land since then.

2/ Are you by any chance a Jew, because (and I don't mean this in a derogatory sense) you seem incredibly biased towards a group of people that kill dozens of people, woman, children included, a week.

I'm not offended by the question. So far as I am aware, there is not a drop of Jewish blood in my lineage. I don't practice the Jewish faith. I am, however, a Christian, and therefore hold a great deal many of the same beliefs and something of a common history. (The Old Testament of our Bible.)

I have never denied that innocent lives sometimes fall when the Isrealies retaliate against the terrorists that constantly attack their country. It is tragic beyond words. But I still don't see how that can compare to people repeatedly strapping bombs to themselves and stepping onto crowded busses or into crowded shops with the full and knowing intention of inflicting as much death and destruction to innocent people as possible.

3/ Is the US' attitude towards the Jews in israel in any way swayed by the sheer financial influence they have in your country. If they invaded another country for example, would this still be OK, just because they're your allies?

I have no idea how much true financial sway Isreal has in our country. I don't believe that has much to do with it. Much of our reasons for the support of Isreal come from the reasons I stated above. When God spoke to Abraham, He said, "I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you..." Genesis 12:2,3 Many people believe that this holds true to this day.

So...if Isreal turned around and attacked us? I'm quite sure we would defend ourselves and the alliance would be shattered, for ill or good. But asking such a thing is like asking "What would you do if your best and most trusted friend held a gun to your wife's head and threatened to blow her head off?" How likely is that to happen and what good does it do to speculate about such things?

2/ So even if this war creates a hundred more terrorists for every one killed that should be classed as a success story, and the killing should continue.

I believe it is an exaggeration in the extreme to say it creates 100 for every one killed. But in all honesty, the final outcome cannot be known until such end as may come. It is risky...sure. But what good thing in life is without risk?

I'll try one more time: The war is not about killing terrorists (although there are many we'd like to see dead), it's about making it impossible for them to do what they wish to do, which is sowing chaos and destruction in our world.

I hope you'll do me the courtesy of responding to the answers I've tried to give.

Thanks,
Judy

Thanks for your messages Judy. I will endeavour to give them the response they deserve tomorrow. Got to run now!

Gotta' look up those answers in the daily "Tea-totalers Tribune"? Sorry guy, I'm just kidding. I couldn't resist!

You made me laugh, I'll give you that one! No, I had to go out. And as Judy wants me to give here a decent response, I will try to give her one.

I knew you would find that one hard to keep quiet about though

LOL, thanks for the ammo!

In America, we count "1, 2, 3, 4", not "1, 2, 3, 2"...Mr. Educated scientist. In any case, I would love to hear your answers to those questions you've posed upon Judy. Be careful! You have to be sneaky about your answers if you want to keep hiding your Anti-Americanism.

Don't forget to include any and all scientific evidence. Just kiddin' buddy

What makes me anti-Amrican, just out of interest?

God, these late night typo's really open me up to your criticism!! AMERICAN!!! Yes, I know how to spell it before you start Mr Builder! lol

You're posts speak volumes about your dislike for my country. You don't actually believe that I'm alone in this thinking do you? No matter what I say, there is no way in Hades that your pompous attitude could possibly let you see your own arrogance. Maybe I'm off-base, but that's exactly how you portray yourself. Trust me, I'm not alone here. Goodnight.

Better yet, what can you come up with to prove that you are not? I'll answer that. Nothing!

Give up jackass!

Snake Feller

"1/ Why do you think these terrorists hate the US so much
2/ Why do you think that this war will change these feelings
3/ Why do you think that the number of terrorists killed will out-weigh the new number of terrorists borne from such bloodshed?"

1) Why do YOU think the terrorists hate us so much? You seem to know the answer. Why don't YOU tell us the answer or are you afraid to state publicly that you hate us too? Are you afraid to address the fact that you sympathize with the terrorists because you both have a common enemy (America)? Stop dancing coward and come out in the open and explain why you believe that the terrorists actions on 9/11 were justified. Come on creep!

2) Weaklings like you and the terrorists will hate Americans forever, regardless of whether it's justified or not. Perhaps you haven't noticed that we don't really care about what the terrorists feel, or what you feel for that matter. The war has eliminated a good number of anti-Americans, and that was the objective. In other words, it was a success. We're happy to disappoint you!

3)The new number of terrorists are significantly different from the old in that they know ahead of time that the US doesn't play anymore. The old terrorists had it easy, until the "Sleeping Giant woke up". By the way, where are those sissy "new" terrorists these days hot shot? Or does it pain you to admit that our war on terror has proved to be extremely effective? Come on school boy, it's time for you to stop playing in the jungle, whoops I mean saving the earth, and answer some of our questions.

Snake Feller

first of all I wish you all the best and that your husband will always return back home healthy and alive.

Tom wrote that the people in every country in the Middle East are hating the Western countries. I think he is right.

But, and please read this sentence twice: Of all these countries surely Iraq posed the least threat to the U.S. or other countries.

Far more dangerous is Iran, Lybia or Syria (spelling?).

Iraq was already down. If Bush would have attacked Iran I would have believed the story about fighting against the terrorism. But attacking Iraq is like attacking a knocked out boxer.

Let us assume for a moment that you (or the government) is right and that is was a war against terrorism.
Then I must say that it is a bunch of fools when they had not been able to foresee how this will end up.
A german journalist and specialist for the Middle East (Peter Scholl-Latour) predicted in the German television several days before the war started that the war would be won soon by the U.S. but the REAL war would begin afterwards.

156 killed U.S. soldiers since May 1. Where should this lead in?

My friend Scotty accused the Iraqis or the Taliban to be cowardly because they hide in the caves.
My point of view was that this is their way of fighting (guerrilla tactic). With the same right one could call the U.S. soldiers cowardly to use their high-tech equipment against a bunch of fanatic peasants with mules and broken guns.
Surely the U.S. soldiers are not cowardly. But also not their opponents.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

Thank you for your kind words.

You believe Iraq posed the least threat. Our president and leaders believed that not to be true. You assume (based on other posts in these threads) that because those beliefs are opposing, that our motives for acting were other than they are. (For selfish gain, to steal their oil, etc.)

Rightly or wrongly, we believed Iraq to be in posession of nightmarish weapons. Saddam did nothing to disabuse us of that notion. If anything, he egged us on with all his game-playing. If we turn out to be completely wrong about the weapons he had, then the fault is at least partially his, if not wholly. There is no question that he had such weapons at one time, and never any evidence that those weapons were destroyed. Also...of all the countries that pose a threat because of their links with terrorists, Iraq's leader was by far and away the most unstable. He was the most likely to offer those weapons to Bin Laden or someone like him in order to get back at the US for all our percieved evils.

I'm not impressed with your Peter Scholl-Latour because I predicted the same thing, and I'm just a little ol' housewife whose never set foot in the Middle East. And it would be the same in ANY of those countries. The task of overthrowing the government would be relatively easy compared to the task of daring to stick around and help rebuild the government and infrastructure when there will always be those there who hate the US no matter what we do.

What's done is done. No matter how much you or anyone else blusters, I know that we did what we did with the right motives. Whether the beliefs behind those motives were fully correct or incorrect remains to be seen. But we are where we are. What would you suggest we do now? Pull out of Iraq completely and let chaos reign? How many more innocent Iraqis would die then? And of course the US would get blamed for "abandoning" them!

And while Chris (Scotty) may have called the Taliban and all the other terrorists "cowards," I do not. Never have. I just call them evil.

You are right, there is no way to say "that's it" and leave the Iraq.

I agree: The terrorists are evil.

I agree: It would have been the same in every of those countries.

But I don't agree as to the reasons this war took place. I think the truth will come to be known some day.

I also think that the majority of these people are against you because (as Tom correctly mentioned) the hate us (not only you americans). To have you at their holy soil hurts their proud in a way like you would touch their virgin daughter.

What I have to add is, that this war will burn out your finances. The terrorists will always find means to blow up pipelines and light the sources of oil.
So there will be no significant cashflow.

Anyway, I wish you and your husband all the best.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I guess this is the point where we agree to disagree. Thank you for the discussion without any insult slinging or name calling.

Sincerely,
Judy
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1.0 red cape gopher (Caesar)

We think you suck too Stroeckl!

Silly Question: "Please name the source that Iraq was involved in 11/9"

Answer: Nobody said that Iraq was involved in 9/11. Get it Ding Dong? Because you are too stupid to grasp the connection between 9/11 (Bin Laden) and taking Saddam out, I'll spell it out for you: both were high profile terrorists. Saddam was also the thug who invaded (terrorized) it's neighbor. In response to 9/11 Bush declared war on terrorism, the common denominator. Sorry Stroeckl, but your heroes had to go.

Silly Question: "Please name the source that Iraq was involved in terrorism against the U.S."

Answer: Boy aren't you sad that you won't live to see one of them take one of our buildings out, like your Bin Laden did. There's nothing as effective as preventive medicine. Happy to disappoint you jackass!

Silly Question: "Please name the source that weapons of mass desctruction had been found in Iraq."

Answer: Saddam was the WMD.

Idiotic comment: "If you are not able to answer to this please be objective and state that this war was illegal (it was illegal anyway because of the missing consent of the United Nations) and not necessary."

Answer: I love how Bush ignored that festering collection of fecality sometimes referred to as the "United Nations" (Germany, France, Russia). If it's illegal to ignore them, then Bush should be proud to be considered a "criminal" in that respect.

Snake Feller

PS You are such a Jackass!

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[ Reply To This Message ] [ Show 11/9

If I remember correctly, the UN went along with the final "extention" of the "Deadline" for Saddam to comply. The UN ignored it's obligation to support our actions that they originally agreed upon. Who broke who's laws?

Herpes will have no problem filtering out facts such as this, that don't jive with his anti-American agenda. I think that he actually believes that we can't see what lies beneath his idiotic remarks. Come out, come out wherever you are jungle twit. Maybe you can ask us, yet again, why we think the terrorists hate us. Maybe you can imply, yet again, that they had good reason to kill thousands of our own on 9/11. Maybe you'll find a backbone and state, in no uncertain terms, that YOU HATE AMERICA. And maybe we'll put you in your place, yet again, for being a jackass.

Snake feller