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I just recently acquired a gray banded kingsnake from my sister in law. They have had it since it was young, but it has recently begun biting her and not letting go until pried off with a pencil. I have no experience with snakes, but did not want it to go to someone that would not care for it. Having scorps and Ts, I know what expertise is shared on forums, but got very little help on AB. I have already researched the care and problems on this board extensively, but was wondering if we could do something better. The snake is believed to be a female and is about 21 inches long. She was being fed two live pinky mice a week (in the same container as being kept), kept on reptibark bedding, had a UTH in the center of her tank, and had no hide. After adjusting to the move for a day, my husband decided to handle her. We both wash our hands immediately before and after messing with her. She latched onto the end of his finger immediately and constricted the same finger. We used a couple of drops of apple bitters on my husband's finger to entice her to let go. I warmed a frozen pinky and placed it in a plastic container. Within a couple of minutes she began to eat the mouse and we were able to slip her off of my husband's finger. We heated and fed her a second pinky since she finished the first in a matter of seconds. We placed her back in her enclosure. This evening I replaced her bedding with about 3 inches of aspen shavings, moved her heater to one side of her enclosure, and gave her a hide big enough to be warm or cool. As I was fixing her enclosure, my husband tried holding her again, first touching and stroking her in the enclosure, then picking her up, again being bitten and using bitters to remove her. He then continued to hold her and carefully and slowly switch hands. He held her for about 30 minutes without being bitten. We plan to continue holding her for periods of time each evening, and not only when being fed. We then placed her back in her enclosure, which she is still enjoying burrowing and exploring. Is there anything different that we can be doing for her and how many and what size mice should I feed her? Any help or criticism is welcome and much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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Your snake is probably hungry!! A 21 inch snake should not be eating pinky mice. That snake needs to be eating large fuzzies at least. We would have to see a photo with some scale to it but you have to get that snake larger food items. Hoppers to small mice are not out of the question for a snake that size.

You havn't searched the forums that well because almost every week there is someone that comes on here with a starving snake. The answer is always the same. FEED that snake a larger meal!

Pinkies don'y have much nutrition being they are small and made up mostly of water. A more mature mouse will have protien,fat, sinew, calcium ect.

second, feed that poor 21" snake a FULL GROWN mouse or two. 21" is plenty big to eat a full size mouse or two. I have bred 20" Florida kings that were A YEAR OLD on full grown mice before they reached 20".

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www.Bluerosy.com

Please accept my apologies. I am sure that as a breeder and professional in the world of kingsnakes, you are incredibly knowledgeable. I just don't see feeding this snake adult mice due to the size of them compared to my snake. Even though she is 21 inches long, she has probably never been fed correctly, and therefore is not where a normal 21 inch snake should be. At her widest point along her body, she is about the diameter of a quarter (little smaller). My sister in law believes the snake to be roughly a year and a half old based on what the pet store told her, which you can take with a grain of salt. I did buy her some fuzzies and hoppers after comparing them to a large pinky and an adult. The diameter of the hoppers is MUCH larger than her diameter. The adult mice from the Mouse Factory are very large, healthy mice. If she does well on the fuzzies, could I not feed her a couple at a time and do just as well as feeding one adult mouse? Please remember that up to now she has only been fed pinkies. Again, I am not trying to become a breeder or collector of snakes, I am just trying to help out this one that in my opinion has not had a very good life up to now. It is not that I am not listening to your advice, but I have seen the size of the snake and the size of an adult mouse, and I just don't see it happening. I would rather she eat a smaller mouse and be content than try to eat a large mouse and have problems digesting it or not be able to eat it at all.

Wow 2 days after this long thread finished and you post a reply at the very beginning.

It has nothing to do with , as you put it, "wanting to become a breeder or collector of sneks" or Bodybuilding for snakes. Heck you could keep humans being locked up and so unhealthy they might not want to vreed either. They would have to be in pretty bad shape, huh. It has to do with what is healthy for your snake and right now at 21" feeding on pinks is not. I was just using the breeding thing as an example as to what constitutes healthy. A ovulating female or male that produces sperm s minimal at best.

We are keeping snakes in captivity. It is already unatural. Might as well do the best by them and not use what YOU think the snake needs but what the SNAKE thinks and needs. if it wants to eat,, feed it. if it eats a larger mouse.. GREAT! That is better than immature mice .
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www.Bluerosy.com

I am going to go out on a limb here and say at 21 inches she should be on fuzzies for a couple of feedings then straight to small hoppers, that girl is STARVING! Sounds like you did the right thing moving the heater to one side, and I would go with two small hides, one on each side of the cage. The thick layer of aspen sounds good, even tough these snakes are crack dwellers, mine do great on aspen. My pair are about as big as yours but are on large hoppers. I know it seems they can't do it but they can and will. I would also offer this...don't feed the snake directly after the apple bitters or a biting/latching on episode, it may in a weird way be enticing it to do this all the more. Sounds weird but it is a learned response. Feed this snake every three or four days and she will be pretty big sooner than you would imagine. What year is she?
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Todd Hughes

Thank you for your help. I am not sure what year she is. My sister in law bought her from a pet store and you know how that goes. They are also the ones that told her that two pinkies a week was overfeeding. I will be going to Alpine to the Mouse Factory later this week for some large pinkies and fuzzies and try to transition her slowly into feeding on larger items. She can now be handled most of the time without biting, so hopefully we can do away with the bitters for good. The cold water method does absolutely no good on this snake. I am hoping that once we start feeding her more, she will stop biting altogether. I know very little about snakes, but am trying to learn and did not want this snake going to someone that would not care for her at all. I would appreciate any advice that you have so this girl can have a good, long life.

I will be going to Alpine to the Mouse Factory later this week for some large pinkies and fuzzies and try to transition her slowly into feeding on larger items.

You don't need to transition her.

Kingsnakes find what they will in the wild and are designed to take in large meals. That is why they eat other snakes in nature.

Also the biting is most likely a feeding response to being hungry. Has the snake grabbed a hold and not let go? Started chewing perhaps.. Either way do that snake a favor and feed it something bigger than a fuzzy. No need to be so afraid of feeding a larger item. It is what YOU think is good and not what is best for the snake.

A 21" gray band should at least be given 3-4 hoppers. Otherwise just feed it an adult mouse which has better nutrients. If the snake can get it down, then it is the right size. In nature they constrict food items that are too big to eat. I experiment with this on my collletion all the time. It amazzes me what some of these snakes can throw down. ..

..anyway , the point is a large meal is not unhealthy.Instead it is heathy for the snake. And really a large rodent is not as much as a snake it might eat in the wild. That is a lot more weight and digestion than a small lump of warm blooded red meat..
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www.Bluerosy.com

While I agree to the bigger meals as I have stated in the first response I think a couple fuzzies or a hopper would be my choice for a few meals. I keep cal kings, easterns, and mountain kings. I think GB's have feeding needs closer to the Zonata I keep. These snake appear to eat slightly smaller items and every time I have tried to bump it up real fast like I do with my cali's and easterns they regurgitate. This snake probably does not have the weight and bone mass of a "healthy" 21 inch snake since it has been starved for some time so I would go fuzzies and then hoppers. Just my opinion. Good old pet store advice at work.

Good old pet store advice at work was aimed at the starving the snake by the way!!!!!

This snake probably does not have the weight and bone mass of a "healthy" 21 inch snake since it has been starved for some time so I would go fuzzies and then hoppers.

You guys crack me up. There is absolutly no reason not to feed a larger item. now if the skinny snake you are feeding has some other problems causing it to be thin and unhealthy like flaggelates or something. Then yes it will regurge but that is another problem. And feeding smaller items to a snake with parasites can make it easier for the snake not to regurge. i used to get this with rosy boas quite often. If they regurge feed small items after 10 days and get the stomach used to digestion. If they still regurge adminsiter Flagyl. Usually the culprit is flagetlates or during the summer the snake could just get to warm and CAN"T thermoregulate. So it tosses it food from being to warm all 24 hours around the clock.

But a starved healthy snake that has been feeding pinkies . It will not need to be pampered unless there is an underlying problem. It sounds to me as it is not sick . Just malnourished and underfed.

Greybands have never been a spciality. I have kept them and raised them. But not as much as Zonata. And like the poster said they are more similar to zonata in care compared to eastern kings or calif kings
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www.Bluerosy.com

I am not disagreeing about the snake needing larger meals, but if you take someone who has not eaten for days and then give them an entire pizza to eat they will most likely not feel to good. Getula are the monsters of the king family and if they got fifteen feet long we all would have to watch our kids around them!!. In MY experience mountain kings can not handle as big of meals as easterns,fl kings, ect. You also have to remember that many here do not use the same conditions as you do so that is another factor all together. Provided the proper gradient this GB should be able to handle much larger meals, I agree and encourage this, but I just am not sure a full grown mouse is the best FIRST meal of choice. Not here to argue, just stating an opinion and the poster can choose for him/herself what to do. Obviously we ALL agree fuzzies at a minimum. Some of what I consider fuzzies others would call hoppers and that goes on acording to hoppers and small mice.

I am not disagreeing about the snake needing larger meals, but if you take someone who has not eaten for days and then give them an entire pizza to eat they will most likely not feel to good.

Well the first rule in keeping snakes is don't make them do what YOU think they should do. You are comparing snakes to humans , or cats or dogs. Snakes live in holes. They have different systems from us. They DO starve for long periods and then gorge on large meals. This is quite common in many species. I can think of why so many people are unsuccessful at keeping Rubber Boas (Charina botae) because they basically eat 1 or 2 months out of the ytear and then go off food. A keeper has to GORGE the starving snake during this time like a sausage for it to be healthy and reproduce. So is the same with some other species. But kings are more forgiving..

People cannot be compared to snakes. This is exactly why some people should never keep snakes. You have to understand the basic ecology of snakes before one should buy them at Pet Co or wherever. Otherwise this theory of feeding smaller ietems before moving to larger ones is just human error and theory based on nothing.

Bottom line. I am known for beefing up snakes fast. At least that is what people say. I do what is normal for the snakes. i don't put them on diets or pamper their every move. I feed the heck out of them and giuess what. they are healthy and reproduce at 20". If i had that GB snake I would stuff it as much as it will eat and i bet it will just sit there for a few days not moving and absorbing. The faster you boost a snakes system the less chance they will succumb to whatever poor treatment they have had...

but if you want to prance around the snake and maybe pet it once or two, and have it watch TV with you then I am sure serving it fuzzies on moms best china is better than pinkies. Or maybe chicken soup?
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www.Bluerosy.com

Sir, I am a man of my word and will not air anyone's dirty laundry. I know how you keep your snakes and how you get them big fast. I definetly think it works, your snakes are the proof. Have you tried your methods with zonata or other mountain kings? Just curious. You do things your way and I will do things my way. I was just giving the poster another option for his snake and he can choose what to do. I keep getula and I TOO feed the heck out of them. They also get all the meals that my mountain kings refuse after they are full. Totally different animals in my opinion. My cal king would try to eat a car if I scented the thing.

Blue, I don't know if the OP wants to become a mega breeder, but I think if one is unsure, one would proceed with caution. I think Joecop is giving you the best compliments of all, saying your strategy for getula is sure. I have seen some sausage-like alterna around and it isn't pretty, they are long and thin out in the wild, when they are young, not skinny, but thin. Till they grow into it. I agree with you as well on getula, but the mexicana are a leetle bit different I theenk my friend. My .02. is worth about that much, lol.
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Todd Hughes

I am not basing my experience on Florida king alone. I have been breeding all sorts of snakes since the early 70's.

When i said I did not keep much Mexicana that means i did not have a collection of 300-500 of them. I have bred most all the common snakes in the hobby and in what i call fair numbers. Even did a lot of hybridization of the mexicana group. So I know what trait each species has to give and who they take after. When you start fooling with hybrids species husbandry gets more interesting. I have old pics i could scan of the fat healthy greybands i had.. If anyone is interested I can scan the pics at walmart and put on disk to post.
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www.Bluerosy.com

This is what good, healthy alterna look like...
Bred like rabbits for me in the late 90s...
It is all about the husbandry....we do not need to emulate the wild to the tee...just make the snake happy (comfortable)...
Regards,

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I am glad you posted those pics because mine looked like that to. I have the pics here and was thinking of scanning. They are pics from the early 90's. they look like yours do. HEALTHY!
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>I am glad you posted those pics because mine looked like that to. I have the pics here and was thinking of scanning. They are pics from the early 90's. they look like yours do. HEALTHY!
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You are certainly welcome....These alterna were nearly the same size of my Floridana (except for one 6' hypo I used to have)....

I have year old Pyros that eat small adult mice and they are no thicker than a penny's diameter.....Two or three a week....
It's all in the husbandry...If they have everything they need to digest a large meal they will be fine......
I have found that an access to humidity, heat, cold and a dry spot give them a greater feeding response......
Just my observations....
Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Wow, year old pyros that are the width of a penny? Now that's power feeding, OR, crossed with Rainer's brooksi.....one or the other. Doesn't seem like a normal growth rate, but then again, I'm not one to tell anyone what to do with their captives.

In the distant past I tried the power-feeding thing and I got alot of snakes with fat deposits. So who is to say thick is healthy? Never seen a fat wild pyro or alterna......but that's just me. As is always, there are different schools of thought as to so many aspects of how we execute our husbandry practices. It is what it is I guess.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Not a single fatty deposit on any of my animals.....
And as for the Pyros....I am 'experimenting' with their growth rates.....They seem happy to see me and willing to eat every time....No Power needed...Just a correct (IMO) environment to digest and live....
No temperature fluctuation as it is in 'the real world'....Giving the snake options is the key to healthy snakes....

And Jerry...You have an awesome collection of healthy snakes too....
You just do it a different way than some....

Regards,

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

In the distant past I tried the power-feeding thing and I got alot of snakes with fat deposits. So who is to say thick is healthy?

That is usually a genetic disorder. I have gotten some like that. Actually I have seen a few in the mexicana group like this. Even with hybrids with mexicana in them. They have fat deposits yet eat the same or less than others. Some people always blame the diet of the snake.

I try to sell mine because females tend to store to much fat in the oviduct. Sperm cannot even get to the eggs and you get slugs.
Better to cull those as this trait can be passed on.
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www.Bluerosy.com

WOW, some of those darker alterna are/were incredible. Would you take 'em back if you had the opportunity...? I know I parted with some things prior to grad school in 2001 that I just can't get back and I'm still kicking myself for it.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>WOW, some of those darker alterna are/were incredible. Would you take 'em back if you had the opportunity...? I know I parted with some things prior to grad school in 2001 that I just can't get back and I'm still kicking myself for it.
>>-----

Jerry....There are nearly 100 or more animals I wished I had back then....
I don't know if you know this, but in 2005 I had an Air Conditioner go out in my snake room in the middle of our 100 plus south Texas Spring....I lost nearly everything I worked so hard to raise, eggs, hatchlings, yearlings and adults....I was disgusted and got out of the hobby for nearly 4 years...
Just the end of last year I started rebuilding my collection... Some that I lost can never be replaced, but slowly I am concentrating just on what I want...And trying to keep it under 50 adult snakes....It sure is going to be hard to stay below that cap when eggs start pipping next year, especially with Mexicana......

Anyways...Thank you.
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

My God......I'd heard about this along the lines but hadnt spoken directly to you about it. How traumatic........some of us freak with an eggbound female or an unexpected loss of a single animal now and then, but damn. I can see why the long hiatus, and not easy to bounce back after such a loss. But you seemed to find the strength to do it, and am glad you did. I meant to comment on those mexicana up top.....which are super-nice, especially a couple that seem to glow.

Glad we talked, and I look forward to more exchanges. Now if I just had the room I'd say swing over a pair of those things, but I'm at capacity. Never owned a thayeri in all these years.....but that could change eh? OH YEAH.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>
>>Glad we talked, and I look forward to more exchanges. Now if I just had the room I'd say swing over a pair of those things, but I'm at capacity. Never owned a thayeri in all these years.....but that could change eh? OH YEAH.

Coincidentally...I've never owned a Zonata in all these years...I do have a Pyro pair and a huge male Knob....
Maybe we can work out a deal next year Jerry....I am interested in Zonata, but never found a good breeder till I saw your pics...and heard of your diverse collection....

Thanks,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I am referring to the OP's claim that the snake isn't that big, 21" is a fair sized snake, no disrespect, but I stand by what I have stated, I am not saying that it can't be done, I do feed large, live rodents to all my snakes, but I prefer to proceed with caution. And as far as trying to emulate the wild, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I understand that the bigger breeders want full potential, and I think you push the envelope, and that's ok, but what if you don't want to breed the snake, don't have a mate for it, aren't planning to breed? Still want to stuff them with all they want? They don't have the environmental pressures of the wild inside our little cages and racks, but most still try to brumate??? So saying you don't have to emulate the wild...
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Todd Hughes

They don't have the environmental pressures of the wild inside our little cages and racks, but most still try to brumate??? So saying you don't have to emulate the wild...

I only stated that we don't have to emulate the wild "to the tee"......
Options, options, options is what they need....I used to not give them options....This time around it is amazing.
I am starting to think kingsnakes absorb moisture alot more than they drink.....
Maybe I am emulating the wild.....LOL....I don't know how much wild snakes feed...I believe they are truly opportunistic....We give them more opportunities....
Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

"I only stated that we don't have to emulate the wild "to the tee"......
Options, options, options is what they need....I used to not give them options....This time around it is amazing.
I am starting to think kingsnakes absorb moisture alot more than they drink.....
Maybe I am emulating the wild.....LOL....I don't know how much wild snakes feed...I believe they are truly opportunistic....We give them more opportunities....
Regards,

Right on!
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www.Bluerosy.com

true, you are now giving them more options, probably some options they have in the wild, wet, dry, temp. variance,more hides, but our diets are usually fed them on a routine basis, enhancing their abilities, IMO, almost a requirement to todays' breeders. All I'm saying is most of us don't really know what constitutes a healthy snake, if we are comparing captive to wild, so let's just say that our captives appear healthy and breed well. I know sometimes things happen and things don't work out as we think they should. I feel confident in my reply to the OP because I have graybands and monitor their growth rates, they are a sibling pair, received together, the male is larger than the female and eats more, he is long and thin, an '07 pair but not robust like most others I have seen, and he's a chow hound. I do notice a phenominal growth spurt in the second summer, (this summer) usually in all my kings. unlike my thayeri which also start off small, I can usually get them up to size quicker,but these are just my observations, and I am not saying anyone is wrong, the OP asked for opinions, I gave one, mine.
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Todd Hughes

>>true, you are now giving them more options, probably some options they have in the wild, wet, dry, temp. variance,more hides, but our diets are usually fed them on a routine basis, enhancing their abilities, IMO, almost a requirement to todays' breeders. All I'm saying is most of us don't really know what constitutes a healthy snake, if we are comparing captive to wild, so let's just say that our captives appear healthy and breed well. I know sometimes things happen and things don't work out as we think they should. I feel confident in my reply to the OP because I have graybands and monitor their growth rates, they are a sibling pair, received together, the male is larger than the female and eats more, he is long and thin, an '07 pair but not robust like most others I have seen, and he's a chow hound. I do notice a phenominal growth spurt in the second summer, (this summer) usually in all my kings. unlike my thayeri which also start off small, I can usually get them up to size quicker,but these are just my observations, and I am not saying anyone is wrong, the OP asked for opinions, I gave one, mine.
>>-----

True...Opinions.....Snakes are individual also....Some have higher metabolism rates than others....Just my observations...
Some people breed for such traits as feeding response, large hatchlings, large adults.....Growth spurts are sporadic at best...When they want food...they want to eat...If they do not want food they will turn it down.....

Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

yep, I am sure that you and I are on the same page, getting to Daytona with Rainer and the crew is another book altogether, lol!
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Todd Hughes

I think both Rainer and Joey have good points indeed, BUT, I'm compelled to state that there are both obvious and some not-so-obvious differences between the kings we're referencing. Getula -- larger, robust eating machines with a very different metabolism and innate behaviors. Kinda like the thugs of the kingsnake world -- they're bada$$ and they know it, as well as afforded greater range of prey type and availability. Consumption of larger food items is indeed possible and have been designed to manage this within the realms of take-down, consumption, and digestion. Alternatively (no pun intended), gray-bands are not the beasts that their getula relatives are Rainer -- they are not designed to take down, consume, and digest larger prey items. These are nocturnal predators that hunt sleeping lizards most of the time, and may on occasion opportunistically take down a rodent....but it's not the norm. Alterna feed at night, often small meals in which their heads are designed to manage, and take advantage of absorbed heat via the rocks after a frickin hot day. And since zonata were mentioned (man I wish I had some of these things too..... ), these are at the other end of the spectrum as they just don't tolerate large meals well, and maybe the exception would be a larger zonata such as agalma or multicincta. I have a tough enough time getting the tiniest pinks possible as larger pinks are not tolerated well. And before there's any questioning of my captive conditions, ambient temps are between 72 and 76F with a warm spot of 80F, clean water, at least an inch of aspen substrate, and both a dry hide of stone/ceramic "stacks" and a moist hide box with slightly damp sphagnum. NO REASON for a regurge, no parasites, no "too cool" temps......it's the sheer size of the prey item that is culprit.

I would hate to see this gentleman throw his only 21 inch alterna a full-grown mouse and later find out that it regurged. As we know, regurges lead to other problems that I'd rather not get into. But the bottom line is that we just can't treat/feed our snakes with a blanket ideology that they eat/consume/digest the same.

Would this gentleman's alterna likely take an adult mouse? Very likely so, but if I may add, I would not condone the continual habit of doing it for smaller kingsnakes like alterna/zonata/mexicana/calligaster, etc. And sure, even in the wild if a larger-than-normal prey item comes along and opportun ity is scarce.....most likely a snake would jump on it and even possibly/maybe regurge it. But it would not be the norm.

Captive care really dummies our reptiles down, and I'm sure that a feeding response to a larger-than-ideal/necessary would make us think "why not".......but again, what is in the best interest of the animal in the long-run?.......unless one is hot to pump the snakes up to be the first to produce the next morph or something like that......but that is only in the best interest of the keeper and not the animal. In captivity, our animals don't have a choice/option unless we provide it -- but when it comes to food size and variety, all snakes are most certainly not created equal.

So Rainer, although I'm not really much into funky morphs, I think your brooksi collection (and website) is amazing nonetheless. But just try to look at it from a differential angle....if every snake behaved and bred and ate like a Florida king, man oh man many of us wouldnt have the headaches we have with the smaller, more "dainty" (if you will) kings that require a degree or two more finesse to keep them thriving and reproducing. I've had my share of floridana some years ago, as well as the occasional alterna and zonata here and there, and it's really apples and oranges when it comes to comparison in my opinion.

Lastly, Mr. 21-Inch Alterna Guy, let us know what you decide to do. It is ultimately your decision. Best wishes.

hypo brooksi

West Langtry alterna

San Jacinto zonata parvirubra

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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Alternatively (no pun intended), gray-bands are not the beasts that their getula relatives are Rainer

I think you are not reading my posts. YES I breed Florida king and specialize in them now. But I also raised and bred zonata and mexicana.

This has turned into a thread about nothing, like a Seinfeld show.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I agree. I am done. Lets move on---------------------------. We all came through it with no time outs and I am trying to keep it that way. I think the OP gets the picture!!!

I agree. I am done. Lets move on---------------------------. We all came through it with no time outs and I am trying to keep it that way. I think the OP gets the picture!!!

I think the OP jumped ship after he made the first post. Probably never came and are just pleasuring ourselves.

So instad of posting a pic of a bunny with a pancake on its head here is an old pic of Gary keesler with a weird cal king:

circa 1989 ?

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www.Bluerosy.com

Not that I'm not a fan of Seinfeld, but I thought it was an important conversation nonetheless. It went from an extremely broad statement to a more detailed discussion.......so we all want to jump ship? No problem. It wasnt a matter of who breeds what then or now, but rather a differentiation between kingsnakes and their feeding.........oh f**k it, I'm not repeating myself.

Later....
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

WOW! First of all I have not jumped ship. I am trying to help this poor animal live a long, healthy life, not to be bred or look like a body builder in the snake world. She is now being handled without biting and has a much nicer habitat thanks to the help of some of the responses on this forum. Thank you for that! I did not mean to open up such a can of worms on the topic. I am simply traveling tomorrow (I live in BFE) to purchase frozen mice, which have to be bought in packs of 50, and was asking which size would be the better choice for my snake, as it is quite a distance to drive and quite an expense to get the wrong size and have to return if they are too big to be digested. I want to do the right thing without stressing the snake and bringing her any more anguish. Again, thanks to all of you for your help and accept my apologies for beginning such a hot debate.
Beverly Tinkler

WOW! Bodybuilding type snakes. You failed to grasp what keeping snakes healthy in captivity is all about. A successful captive reproduces. A healthy snake reproduces. Meaning a female develops ovum and males sperm. That is just "normal" healthy. An unhealthy captive does not reproduce. You snake is HOW OLD?

The best advice you can find is from someone that farms these animals. They are the experts. Not a person who has a small collection.

It is about supporting their needs. Needs does not = BODYBUILDING!
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www.Bluerosy.com

It does not take much to spark it off of this forum!! It's okay and I hope you took some valuable information away from it. Obviously I think you got the point that the snake is starving----right? Good luck and keep up posted on how things go. Then stand back and watch the snowball roll again!!!!!!!

Thank you for all of the help. I thought this is what the forum was about. I have never been so ridiculed as I feel that I have been by Bluerosy. I simply wanted to care for a snake that had not had very good care for most of her life up to now. I drove to Alpine, Texas to the Mouse Factory and had the opportunity to tour an amazing facility and see a wonderful collection of snakes. They were very inquisitive about our snake and very helpful as well.

I have never been so ridiculed as I feel that I have been by Bluerosy.

Your welcome.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Damn man.....harsh.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Jerry,

When someone asks a question it is not a popularirty contest on whos answer they choose to go with. You don't simply take the advice of someone because you like them and exclude others. What I meant (or should have said) was to take YOUrselfs out of the picture. It is about the snakes and not us. My advice was spot on . Even another poster showed large greybands that fed on adult mice. I am a professional breeder. I have been for a few years and bred lots of other snakes. That means i pay my bills , mortage, car, food, vacations ect EVERYTHING with snakes. That means I work with a lot of snakes, all day, every day. If the original poster read all this and chooses to think that feeding large mice is making bodybuilding snakes, they missed the point and are going by how other people want to stroke their egos to not make them feel as bad about the care their snake had.

I don't need the drama, but your welcome anyway.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer,

and all I was trying to say was that not all snakes are created equal and that feeding a 21 inch alterna a honkin' adult mouse was indeed pushing the limits. Again, not all snakes are created equal and not all snakes need to be built like brooksi to be "healthy". We have two different perspectives on this. End of discussion.

As far as your herpetological prowess, I'm proud of you to have been as successful as you've become. I really didnt need to know all that, but appreciate your sharing it. My concern is for when you run out of things to breed. But I wish you all the best in your endeavors my brother and hope that there will always be a back-up plan to the back-up plan.

And to bring my two-cents, which has evolved into a hefty quarter at this point, to a close......all I was saying was that you came across kinda harsh. Just my observations, but which happens intermittently in these forums since their inception over a decade ago. Unfortunately it happens with those "professionals" and "pioneers" most often and, as observed in situations as recent as this one, can turn the more novice away from inquiry -- or even worse, from continual questioning of something that is either misunderstood or just simply inconceivable from a differing perspective.

Just as all snakes are not brooksi, all people are not as rough and tumble as some are. People also come in different forms too, and may need a bit more finesse. I'd like to think that to be one of the greatest triumphs of a true pioneer or professional -- to not only simply deliver the knowledge/experience, but to also be able to deliver it in different ways to different learners to best fit their manner of learning. Yeah, dealing with people can sometimes be a downright pain in the a$$ -- but a little bit more effort can make a big difference in the long run ESPECIALLY if sales are financing many aspect of one's livelihood. Please take nothing more out of this post as it's meant to be nothing more than sincerity and honesty from the heart.

I really do hope that the OP finds success in her efforts despite our difference of opinions. Moreover, that she returns to be able to share it -- successful or not.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I really do hope that the OP finds success in her efforts despite our difference of opinions

Actually it is these types of debates that are the most informative. otherwise this place is dead and gets the perverbial "how many mice should i feed per week" question with a lame answer.

As far as the OP. I am sure she will be successful. As will anyone else who reads these "types" of threads. But it is not always only the OP that learns something. It is the herpetculture in general. That is what is starting to think outside of the box and with people like FR and others it is moving forward. Whether you like the posters or not. Personally I would find this place boring without the chatter between the personalities of people like FR and TonyD. And because of them we end up thinking like snakes instead of us thinking what they should do or some recipe for success.

I leaened a lot from people like FR, Lloyd Lemke and many others regarding keeping of snakes. I leaned a lot from people like Brian Hubbs (coming out with an exhaustive kingsnake book) who never gave out info or a "spot" just to find stuff. NO, these people make you think and understand how to figure it out yourself. Looks at zonata or rosy boas. You don't just show a person a spot like whitewater to find rosys. They can be found everywhere. Same thing goes for zonata. Look for the habitat. Streams , canyons, which way the slop faces, altitude, certain rosks and why others don't need to be flipped or moved and some are perfect. It is these kind of hard lessons that we grow and learn about the snakes..

so I say again to the OP. Sorry for not holding your hand but, Your welcome!

As far as you Jerry. You are a nice guy and help balance us all out. So thanks to you to.
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www.Bluerosy.com

nahhhhh, just playin' on that one.

We're all a helluva bunch of great people in here -- I know that for sure. We just come from different angles and that's what usually trips us up. But that's life.

Not for nothin' Rainer.......it was kinda cool to see you soften up a bit....even if it was just for a moment. Good on ya mate. Now go get that site link fixed ... And throw up a pic of a nice NE axanthic -- my favorite brooksi of all.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Rainer, what is NOT cool about this is how many of us, including you and John, have had to put in the extra time to work with these small neonates and have feeding problems from the get go, whether you produced it, or bought a feeding youngster. A lot of times these mexicanas are difficult to get going, some times they are not, you gotta admit, with the numbers you have produced, you have lost a lot of snakes over the years, lost eggs, due to infertility, etc. you have had many failures to get to where you are today, and I hope you are still learning. So to not include the whole picture skews this topic. I personally don't believe you will ever find a grayband large enough out of the egg to take a hopper, fuzzy, yes, hopper no, and for me, it takes a good while to get them up to size to take hoppers. In all instances, there are stellar animals and runts, but to be sure, even you have to admit it may take a little longer to get mexicana up to size. I know John and you both personally, John lives close and is responsible for my addiction, lol, Tom too! I have seen some of the things they have gone through to get neos to feed, very unlike the getulas which are almost bulletproof, hence the lower on average price of non morph getula. you're a nice guy, hung out with you in Daytona, and you are a breeder extrordinaire, but I bet you have your share of problem Lamps, no?
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Todd Hughes

Todd...
I have had many "problems"....especially with getting neonate Mexicana to eat....I do have a ton of tricks and techniques though....
I have lost a total of 5 hatchling mexicana due to them not wanting to eat...It was devastating to me....I think I have hatched close to 200 since 1998.....
I have absorbed many other things over the last 4 year hiatus from folks like Rainer, Mr. Retes, Tom and even you....

Hell...I think I had a harder time getting some of those Calhoun county Splendida and some corns to eat than a lot of my Mexicana....

Like I stated just earlier up the thread...snakes are individual...No two are exactly the same...If you give them options you hope one will be the one that works....

Great thread I think....I hope the OP got the info she needed...
Some of us rear snakes different, but in the end it all works out..

BTW...I got an adult Thayeri male that is a problematic feeder and is kept in equally pristine conditions like all the others in my collection....Is he hard headed?...He is not ill at all...Just Different! He is worth all the hard work though IMO...Next year he should throw some "Ole Yeller" offspring...I hope....

Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

That's my whole point John, they are all different, I think you know how well I think of you and I KNOW you know I know how much hard work you put into your animals! I know Rainer and Tom and Frank have us all beat on numbers, Shannon and quite a few others, I used all the combined knowledge on these threads to pick my way, certainly not everyones choice, but it works for me. LOL, those Calhoun specks were EASY for me compared to a few alterna and thayeri I lost in the beginning! Because I have such a variety of snakes, I had to choose species I could work with together, so some of my methods aren't for others, but for my area and what I have to put into it, so far so good. If she (the OP) can roll with the tide, she will do well, she got kingsnake A-Z yesterday and today, tomorrow, its 101!

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Todd Hughes

yes to everything you said.
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www.Bluerosy.com

you are a great guy to hang with, and I am gonna get into those pewters as soon as you define and refine, now to me, that is a nice snake!
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Todd Hughes

just feed that gray band a small mouse consistently and all will be well. And don't shy away from the forum. We want to know how it goes. We all have our moments and there are varied personalities indeed, but don't hesitate to return and share the progress. Okay? Have a good night...
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Thanks. After visiting with the folks at the Mouse Factory, I decided to begin with some fuzzies, which are about the same size as the width of my snake's largest spot along her body. She loves the deeper aspen and will get two hides instead of one as soon as I get to Odessa/Midland this weekend, as our stores don't even carry clay pots that I could use as hides. We are now handling her slowly and easily without getting bitten, and hope it will go better with feeding her larger mice. I will definitely continue posting and reading this forum. Thanks for all of the advice.

Welcome. In the end we're all a bunch o' great folks in here. Really. And why not try an adult mouse when that thing gets bigger -- if it can't handle it....well, it'll let you know by backing out of it or puking it. It may even handle it as well. Trial and error. I think the best thing you can do is try to take a little advice from everyone and make it work the best you can. If anything, give the snake some options as mentioned before (several hide spots, cool/warm areas, varying food size, etc). Gray bands are pretty hardy once they get going, and it sounds like ya got a feisty one....so you're ahead of the game already. Have fun....
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

agreed, what will most likely happen is it will simply not finish the meal and give up, if it is too large, if it gets it down, with the right temp variances, it will not throw it up. That is, if there are no underlying parasitic issues...a whole 'nother can 'o' worms, lol!
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Todd Hughes

I also would like to say thanks to you for coming to us for some advice and most of all for helping that poor snake. Post some photos when ya get a chance.

Just a question. Is Joecop single? Cause he sure seems to be cruising for chicks.
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www.Bluerosy.com

???? WTF. Happily married. Guess you missed the threads a while back where everyone was posting photos of themselves and family so people could put a face with the forum folk.

I have tried to apologize to Bluerosy, and keep getting replies as sarcastic as this one, so I believe that I will quit posting and continue reading. I have also had a couple of members contact me with some great advice and have gotten some super advice here, so a big thanks to you. I truly apologize for anything that I have started between this particular poster and any other members. If I had known this would be what a simple question would lead to I would have never joined this forum. My sincere apologies.

eh, Rainer is just...Rainer, as I am antelope (Todd) and Joecop is Joecop, etc., etc., it's okay, he really is trying to help you, lol, but as jerry said, we are all a little different, put on another layer of skin and post about your king(s), you asked for help, what is most important is to return the favor when you can, don't let this be a bad thing, only a learning thing. Bluerosy is a good guy, really, he's just a bit gruff, but not really, the internet puts a mask on us all, and trust me Beverly, he's wearing his scary one now! Rainer, play nice with the new kids!
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Todd Hughes

knock it off already. The thread is done.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

instant success! I am glad you have helped your snake, hope that we all had a part in it, and hope to see you post some pics of your girl, best of luck and keep us posted.
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Todd Hughes

Beverly, you can rest assured this isn't anything out of the normal around here, 90% of the posts can be helpful, only a few are not, I think all the answers given could help you out, don't be afraid to get help here, we all have the same disease, lol, we are a passionate lot!
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Todd Hughes