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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31527357/ns/us_news-environment/

At least they're going to see if the animal can survive rather than keep going on about pythons from Flordia to Houston.

My wife and I have been watching this story for a while. The way the whole thing has unfolded has been rather bizarre to us. First they blame owners for the release of the burmese. Now they blame hurricane Andrew. That sounds like a move to say oh we were wrong. Granted I'm sure that some owners have released into the wild their unwanted reptiles. That is not a good thing to do to say the least. We have went from a study that shows these snakes to "invade" as far north as a bit of Washington state I believe, to one that shows lots less coverage area. Disproving the USGS. Now we have a study that is in process in North Carolina. To see if these snakes can survive up there. I don't understand how they think that a tropical species will survive in an area that recieves snow, freezes, and may even touch on a negative temperature range during the winter. I'm not that familiar with the climate activities occuring within the burmese pythons native habitat, but I doubt that it freezes there, or if it does, that it is not very often. There are a few things that they are forgetting when scaring the general public with the oh so aggresive and killer burmese python. One. I know that a burmese will kill and eat pigs. What about the Russian hogs that are found frequently in the southeastern parts of our country? Would they and pigs in general not kill and eat smaller burmese? A large burmese may be a little more tough for a hog to manage. 2. Have tthey not already been microchipping the ones they caught and released back into the Glades? Would they not have a way to track movement into a more northern area? I don't know percentages tagged, but it would be one way to tell. 3. Last but not least. Everyone knows the hazards that come with a snake crossing the highway or being found in someones back yard in rural areas of the south. I don't want to get into a gun control issue here, but a large percentage of hunters and other families own firearms in rural areas. That combined with vehicle damage to a snake population and the aformentioned Russian hog would be detrimental to these snakes. Those are just some factors I can come up with.

One question I know is a recurring one. If you can catch, tag and relase these animals in the Glades, and also remove them from residential areas, then why can't you ship them back to their native habitat over seas, and or offer the smaller ones up to the breeders and keepers who would be responsible and make sure that they were well looked after?

Permitting animals is a good way to assure responsibility, but a lot of places are disorganized because they don't have the knowledge required to make the correct decisions in the governing body of the state or locality. Things are going well with some outside help in other places, but permitting should be a thought in many more areas. And don't try to rape the keeper with cost either. Pricing should be fair to everyone and should also perhaps even be offered at a discount for multiple permit owners.

It makes sense to me. I hope it makes sense to everyone else. I hope I did not mess up too bad on any of the information listed above. Guess it was just my rant for the day.

I am a firm believer in natural selection. I think that if snakes of that size were able to survive and propagate their species in the southeastern and northern united states they would have been here already. There are too many natural predators that will take advantage of a large slow moving snake, especially in the winters when the snakes no doubt get slow and lethargic and would be an easy meal. I also think that it would be very difficult for a snake of that size to hibernate and survive a freeze. I'm no expert but it would seem to me that the fact that they have such a large body size means they need a lot more heat than a smaller snake to thermo regulate, and as a result could possibly not be able to survive where temperatures dropped into the 40's and low 50's. Just my two cents.
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Walter
WAR EAGLE!!!

Posted by: wmcandrew at Wed Jun 24 21:59:43 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by wmcandrew ] Share

I am a firm believer in natural selection. I think that if snakes of that size were able to survive and propagate their species in the southeastern and northern united states they would have been here already. There are too many natural predators that will take advantage of a large slow moving snake, especially in the winters when the snakes no doubt get slow and lethargic and would be an easy meal. I also think that it would be very difficult for a snake of that size to hibernate and survive a freeze. I'm no expert but it would seem to me that the fact that they have such a large body size means they need a lot more heat than a smaller snake to thermo regulate, and as a result could possibly not be able to survive where temperatures dropped into the 40's and low 50's. Just my two cents.
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Walter
WAR EAGLE!!!
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I agree in fact the area iguanas when winter night temps drop to 50s or bit less head for the canals as the water stays warm .

A month of cold with no escape would kill iguanas-pythons,etc here but the days even in winter are usually warm/hot enough and the warm water is also a place many seek out.

I have gone fishing at night and have lost count how many iguanas I see in water if winter night temps under 60 even under 60 as a whole rare in S.Florida .
I have never seen a python but imagine must be same .

Without at least a warm place to avoid the cold if prolonged cold they would die. I couldnt fathom one surviving a NC winter .

Dont think they are even found in N.Florida

The story is bizarre to you probably because, like most of us, you are honest, and you presume logic and reason are the driving forces behind all of this. I don't think they are.

All the circumstancial evidence points to the cause of the breeding python population being Hurricane Andrew. I guess the evidence is so strong that now even those who blamed irresponsible python owners are changing their tune???

To add to what you said, also large pythons will eat baby hogs.
This is just one tiny, tiny piece of complex ecosystems. I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I still don't understand why it's almost universally accepted the pythons are an environmental catastrophe to the Everglades. I'm not recommending anyone release his/her non-native animal, I'm simply saying I've seen no sound evidence the pythons are creating a problem at all. They might be, but if we are going to speculate, we can just as easily speculate they help local fauna since they eat feral cats, hogs, rabbits, etc. And they also can be a food source for many indigenous animals.

The fact that the infamous range map was released and promoted BEFORE ANY ATTEMPT was made to gather any supporting empirical data speaks volumes. Why cause such hysteria with a theoretical map when a simple experiment could disprove the theory? The fact is, there is plenty of empirical data to disprove the theory. How many thousands of Burms have died because owners accidentally or ignorantly allowed temperatures to dip below 65 degress or so?

Thanks,
Ed

>>My wife and I have been watching this story for a while. The way the whole thing has unfolded has been rather bizarre to us. First they blame owners for the release of the burmese. Now they blame hurricane Andrew. That sounds like a move to say oh we were wrong. Granted I'm sure that some owners have released into the wild their unwanted reptiles. That is not a good thing to do to say the least. We have went from a study that shows these snakes to "invade" as far north as a bit of Washington state I believe, to one that shows lots less coverage area. Disproving the USGS. Now we have a study that is in process in North Carolina. To see if these snakes can survive up there. I don't understand how they think that a tropical species will survive in an area that recieves snow, freezes, and may even touch on a negative temperature range during the winter. I'm not that familiar with the climate activities occuring within the burmese pythons native habitat, but I doubt that it freezes there, or if it does, that it is not very often. There are a few things that they are forgetting when scaring the general public with the oh so aggresive and killer burmese python. One. I know that a burmese will kill and eat pigs. What about the Russian hogs that are found frequently in the southeastern parts of our country? Would they and pigs in general not kill and eat smaller burmese? A large burmese may be a little more tough for a hog to manage. 2. Have tthey not already been microchipping the ones they caught and released back into the Glades? Would they not have a way to track movement into a more northern area? I don't know percentages tagged, but it would be one way to tell. 3. Last but not least. Everyone knows the hazards that come with a snake crossing the highway or being found in someones back yard in rural areas of the south. I don't want to get into a gun control issue here, but a large percentage of hunters and other families own firearms in rural areas. That combined with vehicle damage to a snake population and the aformentioned Russian hog would be detrimental to these snakes. Those are just some factors I can come up with.
>>
>>One question I know is a recurring one. If you can catch, tag and relase these animals in the Glades, and also remove them from residential areas, then why can't you ship them back to their native habitat over seas, and or offer the smaller ones up to the breeders and keepers who would be responsible and make sure that they were well looked after?
>>
>>Permitting animals is a good way to assure responsibility, but a lot of places are disorganized because they don't have the knowledge required to make the correct decisions in the governing body of the state or locality. Things are going well with some outside help in other places, but permitting should be a thought in many more areas. And don't try to rape the keeper with cost either. Pricing should be fair to everyone and should also perhaps even be offered at a discount for multiple permit owners.
>>
>>It makes sense to me. I hope it makes sense to everyone else. I hope I did not mess up too bad on any of the information listed above. Guess it was just my rant for the day.

"If not hundreds of thousands"...jesus. Could you imagine? They're going to have to call Samuel L. Jackson soon...

aa

...a human is "just another prey item" to a python — especially a small human. Pythons are constrictor snakes and have been known to eat people in their native areas of Southeast Asia.

...said herpetologist Whit Gibbons, a professor of ecology at the University of Georgia and a member of the python project.

Is this fella Rodda's twin brother, separated at birth???

How many of you have seen a 20ft Burmese python?

How many of us have been bitten by a Burmese python? Did it wrap you to squeeze the life out of you?

Maybe this research program will be good for the professor. Then he'll be able to ad Burmese pythons to the the list of snake(s) that he's actually had any hands-on experience with.

However, I have to try to be fair. It's very possible that Mr. Gibbons' comments were taken way out of context by the article's author. I mean, after all, it was written by the AP and posted on MSNBC.MSN.com. Not exactly what I consider reliable, unbiased sources, especially when combined.

Anyone wanna bet that regardless of the outcome, the research will be considered "inconclusive"?

Later!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Sounds like you might think that Whit Gibbons does not have much hands on experience dealing with herps.

May I suggest that you google his name and see if you still have the same impression. I think Whit Gibbons is one of the better known and respected herpetologists in the US.

As a non-pet owner (well not now) but someone interested in herps, I'm curious, is it fair to say that you all as a group (pet owners) think that all of the scientists involved in studying Burmese pythons are lying? Are in it only for the money? or to keep you from owning pets? And that none of them know anything about herps?

Sounds like you might think that Whit Gibbons does not have much hands on experience dealing with herps.

Ha! Ha! Yeah, I threw a few jabs at Gibbons based solely on his comments in the article that I included in my first reply. To me, those comments do not paint a pretty picture of his hands-on experience level with Burmese pythons. I actually find those comments to be very misleading, at best - if not downright inaccurate. However, don't forget that I ended my reply with an attempt to be fair to him by mentioning that the media could be at fault.

May I suggest that you google his name and see if you still have the same impression. I think Whit Gibbons is one of the better known and respected herpetologists in the US.

Maybe one of these days I'll have the time to look into his accomplishments and hopefully even learn a thing or two from him. I would like that very much. I have the greatest respect for most that earnestly devote their life to further the knowledge of reptiles/animals.

Here's what I feel is the bottom line concerning Gibbons' comments, achievements, etc...:
One-time comments like the ones I pointed out can undo many years of positive contributions. Such comments are being used to attempt to keep these animals away from the general public.

As a long-term keeper of these magnificent creatures, nearly all scientific information (and even common-keeper information pertaining to Burmese pythons will be useless to me once these snakes are banned.

One article containing comments like those mentioned are being used by the media, animal rights activists and misaligned legislative representatives (?), to practically render useless 30, 40..., years of research. If continued, the common person may never be ale to personally apply it because of banishment of these very animals.

If you're interested in keeping any of the big snakes or other so-called "reptiles of concern" or non-native species, I strongly suggest that you "Do it today, for tomorrow it may be illegal," because of comments like mentioned.

"As a non-pet owner (well not now) but someone interested in herps, I'm curious, is it fair to say that you all as a group (pet owners) think that all of the scientists involved in studying Burmese pythons are lying?"

I'm not sure where you got "lying" from. Maybe from my comment "Anyone wanna bet that regardless of the outcome, the research will be considered 'inconclusive'?" Let me clarify my comment as looking back I can see how it could be misleading.

Based on what lil' I know about Dorcas & the UG herpetology department, I don't think this research project is starting out slanted. I believe, thus far, that it will be a legitimate study.

What I meant by the results being considered inconclusive is that Rodda, his cronies, and the other misaligned people, will find fault with it & in the eyes of the government, activists, and media, and, of course, the general public, the results will be considered inconclusive and will not solve a thing as far as Rodda's claims, media hype & banishment are concerned.

Don't get me wrong; I do believe the research is a step in the right direction, and hopefully beginning with the right people at the helm.

"all of the scientists involved Are in it only for the money?"

I can only speak for myself, not every pet owner. As far as this particular study, hopefully I've already clarified that I don't believe that to be the case. However, there are some scientists that conjure up studies for job security. As far as I'm concerned, as apparently evidenced by his actions, I think Rodda fits nicely in here.

I'm sure you've heard the term "junk science." Just a year or two ago there was a study done on polar bears in which scientists were measuring the size of the bears' private parts and trying to determine if size matters to them.

I want to know just how many people go through life dreaming of being a scientist that measures polar bear private parts. Dang!!! I can see those scientists' children telling their 2nd grade classmates that they want to be just like their dad when they grow up.

"...or to keep you from owning pets?"

Not all, but there are some scientists that desire so. Some in the zoo field feel as though the general public should not own many species. Some have fought long & hard to keep various animal species strictly under the care of zoo type institutions, thinking that they are the only ones that can properly care & propagate them. I believe that history has proven them wrong many times. Many species today are thriving largely due to the advancements in husbandry contributed by the common keeper.

”And that none of them know anything about herps?”

Ha! Ha! Now, that was a large leap. I don’t know of anyone that feels that way.

There is a difference between scientific keeping & pet keeping. There will always be the old war differences between what some view as “common sense” and “scientific-minded” people. Some are blessed with both. Me? I ain’t got either one.

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

excellently put!
-----
Walter
WAR EAGLE!!!

Whit Gibbons might be knowledgeable is certain areas of herpetology but grossly lacking in others. Publishing papers , writing books and doing conservation studies make for a nice looking resume` but it`s amazing how much you don`t need to know to accomplish those things.

Irregardless of qualifications the point isn`t if a person can competently perform an experiment or not . The point is can you trust them to provide data that has not been skewed by personal bias. So far all of the hand picked scientist that have been selected to address the invasive issue have shown an incredible bias and willingness to lie and present highly questionable information as fact . Based on the alleged comments Whit Gibbons is falling in line with his colleagues.

There is every reason to be suspicious because what we have seen so far has been a scientific kangaroo court. Science is a business being a scientist is a job. Just like in any other profession their will be individuals who are willing to compromise their code of ethics for personal gain. Various organizations seek out and use these individuals to further their own corrupt agendas. Corrupted science for personal and political gain is wide spread and has been thru out history.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I surely hope Mr. Gibbons is threatening a lawsuit to (or at least demanding a retraction from) the news organization(s) that have either badly misquoted him or totally made up some of those ridiculous quotes. If not....

>>Sounds like you might think that Whit Gibbons does not have much hands on experience dealing with herps.
>>
>>May I suggest that you google his name and see if you still have the same impression. I think Whit Gibbons is one of the better known and respected herpetologists in the US.
>>
>>As a non-pet owner (well not now) but someone interested in herps, I'm curious, is it fair to say that you all as a group (pet owners) think that all of the scientists involved in studying Burmese pythons are lying? Are in it only for the money? or to keep you from owning pets? And that none of them know anything about herps?
>>
>>

This entire study has FATAL FLAWS because they have created denning sites and are feeding the snakes. In spite of this I believe the snakes will succomb to the cold anyway but they seem to be dead set on proving they could live much further north by utilizing junk science....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

... at least they didn't blame individual python owners like most/all of the other articles on the subject.

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"when scientists speculate a bevy of Burmese pythons was released into the wild after Hurricane Andrew shattered many pet shop terrariums."
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Obviously it's more than speculation since the circumstanial evidence all points to the Hurricane. But it's a start, I guess.

Tom, interesting point about them feeding the pythons. I'm just picturing a grad student dangling, with very long tongs, a Key Largo wood rat in the "hibernacula". Hey, then even if the pythons die as expected, they could say the pythons are catastrophic to the ecosystem.

Thanks,
Ed

>>This entire study has FATAL FLAWS because they have created denning sites and are feeding the snakes. In spite of this I believe the snakes will succomb to the cold anyway but they seem to be dead set on proving they could live much further north by utilizing junk science....
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com