Reptile & Amphibian Forums

FOX breaking news reporting at July 1st, 11:30 AM that a 2 year old child in Florida was strangled to death by a 3' burmese python.
If this is true, I expect another public outcry and renewed attempt to ban these and other "injurious" snakes.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

I just heard this on the news. It's not too far from me and FWC is still trying to determine if it was a pet python and what underlying circumstances were present.

Oh yes, Nelson will have a field day with this one!!

Also the local news is reporting it was a 12ft pet Burmese python that escaped from its cage overnight.

How very sad for the family.

Wait, a 12' snake had escaped and the family didnt know it was loose? And a 2 yo child was unsupervised to the extent that the snake found him/her first and no one was there to stop what was happening?
The parents will have to live with their mistake for the rest of their lives.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

I don't mean to dominate the thread...

It is reported to be a 12ft Burm. The owner put it away in the aquarium last night and when he awoke this am, the snake was gone. He ran into the girl's bedroom and the snake was on top of the toddler. The owner of the snake was the mother's boyfriend. The local news had a pretty good interview with a FWC spokesperson who clarified that the python was not venomous, did not blast python owners, and did report that this gentleman did not have the proper FL ROC permit to own a Burm.

Well...I guess my $100 ROC permit renewal will contribute to this investigation...it's due right now. When I got my Burm, he was 11ft and kept in a 75 gal aquarium. He spent a lot of nights pushing on that screen. I don't know if having the permit would have made a difference, but maybe having to fill out the questionnaire would have made this guy think a bit.

Link to channel 6 Orlando coverage.
Python attack

The part that really gets my goat is that when FWC is interviewed, they claim that the pythons wouldn't likely survive the Central FL winters and do not point to owner release as a cause of Everglade populations. Yet when they print the story, it's a "scientific" claim that there is no part of FL that a python couldn't inhabit and don't forget all those python release pet owners!

I've seen the pics, that snake is 7' tops. The real reports said 8'. They quoted some hayseed "snake catcher" who pontificated with "A 12 foot snake will do this" so the lazy media falsely reported the size.

Personally, there are so many holes in this story you could drive a Hummer through it. If there ME is worth a damn, I hope he knows what to look for in a snake attack. I'll bet money that kid was shaken or choked by a drunken "Mom's boyfriend" and the snake was blamed.

If that snake is over 7' it's severely malnourished:
12' snake? Umm ok

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1.0.0 Cuban/Cayman Hybrid Iguana
0.1.0 Cuban Iguana
0.1.0 Corucia Zebrata
1.0.0 Ctenosaura Similis
1.2.0 Mali Uromastyx
1.3.0 Leopard Geckos
5.5.0 Uroplatus sikorae
0.0.2 Armadillo Lizards
0.1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.2.0 Angel Island Chuckwallas
0.1.0 Sulcata Tortoises
1.0.0 Western Painted Turtles
0.0.3 Red Eared Sliders

Just saw this on the Today show and the report does have a lot of holes in it but it's not good...

Where was Tom Crutchfield on the interviews for NBC? They did have one guy in Florida letting them know how ridiculous it is.. They also showed the cage he kept it in which was a small aquarium.. They never once mentioned the permits required in FL!!!!!
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1.0 Het Albino Burm
0.1 Albino Burm
1.1 Mojave Ball Pythons
0.1 Normal Ball Python
1.0 Albino Ball Python
1.1 Pastel Ball Pythons
0.1 Spider Ball Python
0.2 Het Albino Ball Pythons
0.1 Lavender Albino Retic

Seeking bigger cages for the family

A very interesting observation. I didnt think along the conspiracy lines.
From the get go it was very difficult for me to believe that a burm of that size would think of a child as prey. I would expect that more from a retic than a burm. And even then its a stretch. I have a 9' retic and he ignores my miniature dachshund when the dog walks by the snakes enclosure.
It would be an amazing turn of events if COD was something other than the snake. I doubt the media would cover that.
BTW did anyone see the massive neck wound on the snake? Alledgedly it happened when the bf found the snake on the child and stabbed the snake with a knife to make it let go. When I have seen snakes injured or defensive, the mouth is open and trying to bite. It didnt appear to be the case with this animal. Even injured it seemed oblivious to what was going on i.e. rough handling by LE.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

It is all starting to look very strange...I wonder what the autopsy will show today. Yes, I did see the snake come out looking very docile and confused. And the owner reported to have it in a bag in the tank???? What's up with that?

Different news channels have different interviews. The local Fox affiliate had someone with an Indian python that looked like it had the red spotted belly of being kept unclean. The local 24 hr news interviewed FWC who gave a fair interview and did mention the permitting system. I also heard the 911 call and it was the owner who said it was a 12ft snake. So until the search warrants were issued and the snake was recovered, the media went by the owner's statement.

Could a 8.5-9ft python squeeze a child? I think it could under the right circumstances. I have a 7ft boa that turns my arm purple and that's not even a feeding response. But there are so many other things in this story that just don't add up. While I wouldn't wish any harm on anyone, especially a child, I hope the death points to another cause for the sake of reptile keepers.

Unfortunately, having lived in that part of the state, I don't count competency as the strong suit of local law enforcement in Sumter, Pasco, or Hernando counties.
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1.0.0 Cuban/Cayman Hybrid Iguana
0.1.0 Cuban Iguana
0.1.0 Corucia Zebrata
1.0.0 Ctenosaura Similis
1.2.0 Mali Uromastyx
1.3.0 Leopard Geckos
5.5.0 Uroplatus sikorae
0.0.2 Armadillo Lizards
0.1.0 Bearded Dragon
1.2.0 Angel Island Chuckwallas
0.1.0 Sulcata Tortoises
1.0.0 Western Painted Turtles
0.0.3 Red Eared Sliders

Agreed. If that snake is 8' long, I am 8' tall.
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0.1.0 Burmese Python 12'- "Baby"
1.0.0 Albino Granite Burmese Python 6.5'-"Capone"
0.1.0 Albino Burmese Python 11'-"Lacy Underall"
1.0.0 Retic 8.5'-"McLovin"
1.0.0 Retic 13'- "Carl Spackler"
1.0.0 African Rock Python 9'-"Pauly Walnuts"
1.1.0 Ball Pythyons "Yoda" & "Abbey Sciuto"
1.0.0 BCI 7.5'-"Mr.Pink"
0.2.0 BCI 6'-"Scarlett O'Hara & Sloane Peterson"
1.1.0 Bearded Dragons-"Radar O'Reilly & Carol Anne"

im sorry but that snake could have slept on the kids fac e and not hurt him, if that kid aint got bite marks the snake didnt do it and a burm that small aint going to atempt to eat a 2yr old child no way,

ive been keeping repltiles for over 20yrs ive had some of the most agressive to some of the laziest eating burms on the world and ive never seen a burm or any other snake coil without biting, feel for the child but this is rediculous

The child had a bite mark on the forehead and on the forearm.

There was a case almost exactly like this about 10, maybe 15 years ago in Dallas. Made the front page of several papers, "Snake attacks and kills child!!".......several days later, a small article on page 10 that the 'dad' had killed the child, made the snake bite the child several times to make it look like a snake attack. I suspect this may end up the same way.....but maybe not, as skinny as that snake is, it may have been looking for anything to eat. Brad Lichtenhan

I'm really hoping that the snake just happened to be in the same room and that the COD is something else. Frankly it's hard for me to believe that a young Burm would do this. But anything is possible with constrictors.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2009/7/1/491284.html?title=Florida child strangled by Python
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Walter
WAR EAGLE!!!

our friend Whit Gibbons strikes again
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Walter
WAR EAGLE!!!

When are people going to learn to respect these snakes? How do you not respect a 12 Burmese enough to at least own a cage that it cant get out of when you have a 2 year old in the next room???? These snakes can be amazing animals to enjoy, and observe, just respect them! Please people! Not to mention the guy had the nerve to blame the snake when speaking to authorities... Only thing to blame is his Dumb Ass!

I feel terrible about what happened to that poor girl and her family. Even though burms are great pets in my opinion ( I have 5 ) I wouldn't feel safe even keeping them in the same house as a small child without SEVERAL locks separating the pet from the child. I keep mine inside key locked plexi cages inside of a key locked and deadbolted room. And thats just to protect me. You don't leave a loaded gun around kids. A large constrictor is just as dangerous. It might never go off but can't afford to risk it. My condolences to the family.

First off, my condolences to the family as well and may the little girl have a new life with God.

The part that kills me is the fact that the snake appears 7 ft and was blown up to 12 ft over and over again inthe news and I am not too sure any of the stations reporting even cared to make a correction, meanwhile making the story sound all that much more worse. On top of that this is not the type of media burmese pythons or the state of Florida needed!!

Fact is still more dogs kill children/people every year but people only go after the pit bulls because of the rep they have. I HATE to see Burmese Pythons getting the "pit bull" reputation, its just plain out rediculous to me. Just as I feel a owner should take care of and train a dog not to be a killer, A person should be equally responsible with their pythons.
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My collection...

Albino and albino het ball pair
Trio yellow belly balls
Pair Het pieds
2 Mojave Female balls
1 Unidentified ball morph
1 Suriname red tail

"The part that kills me is the fact that the snake appears 7 ft and was blown up to 12 ft over and over again inthe news and I am not too sure any of the stations reporting even cared to make a correction, meanwhile making the story sound all that much more worse. On top of that this is not the type of media burmese pythons or the state of Florida needed!!"

I'm responding to this statement as both a snake owner and an employee of a local news station. The snake was reported repeatedly as a "12 foot python" because that was how it was described in the 911 call. Thus, it went over the Associated Press wires as a "12 foot python" because AP didn't correct it soon enough. Nearly all news stations receive their news from AP and have to report it word for word the way AP states it. Most of the AP wires don't even have pictures of the snake (or whatever news item) for the first two days. Sure, from the pictures now you can tell it's not a 12 foot snake, but when the only information you have to go by is the 911 call, all you can report is that it was a 12 foot snake.
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Holly

1.0 Florida Kingsnake (Eddie Gein)
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Charley Manson)
1.0 Fire Skink (Peter Dinsdale)
1.0 Vietnamese Golden Gecko (George Chapman)
0.0.1 Blue Day Gecko (Joe Ball)
1.0 Orange Marmalade Cat (Oliver)
1.0 Black Cat (Shadowfax)
1.0 Tennessee Walking Horse (Durango)

2.0 Toddlers (Justice & Trevor)

100% their fault. There's no way around that. If the snake was being kept properly it wouldn't have escaped. In my opinion, they may even be using the snake as a scapegoat. It all just seems a little fishy.

I feel extremely bad that a child has lost her life, but people like this (the snake's owner) are the reason that responsible owners suffer, and I think that the mere fact that this person had the snake without a permit should indicate that the only effect that new legislation will have will be on the responsible owners.

Posted by: -ryan- at Thu Jul 2 11:05:01 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by -ryan- ] Share

100% their fault. There's no way around that. If the snake was being kept properly it wouldn't have escaped. In my opinion, they may even be using the snake as a scapegoat. It all just seems a little fishy.

I feel extremely bad that a child has lost her life, but people like this (the snake's owner) are the reason that responsible owners suffer, and I think that the mere fact that this person had the snake without a permit should indicate that the only effect that new legislation will have will be on the responsible owners.
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I agree but being goverment what goverment is next step will be banning them.
Florida and other states for ONCE actually need to enforce laws . This might just eliminate thinmgs like this from ever happening.

Not to mention some in this state ESP.S.Florida house them in screened backyard patios . In time they escape.

The problem is those responcible in Florida for enforcing permit,etc laws . Do NOTHING.

Thus idiots keep them in flimshy enclosures among other things. I live in Florida and saw a guy couple months ago with large python by a lake letting it swim by shore.

Few times it allmost got away but he and his friend caught it. Than police came and told them to leave but never asked them for permit.info,etc .

Both men were in 30s thus no kids . If simple laws on the books were enforced than everyone wins. More money for the state-idiots wouldnt own them.

>>The problem is those responcible in Florida for enforcing permit,etc laws . Do NOTHING.
>>
>>Thus idiots keep them in flimshy enclosures among other things. I live in Florida and saw a guy couple months ago with large python by a lake letting it swim by shore.
>>
>>Few times it allmost got away but he and his friend caught it. Than police came and told them to leave but never asked them for permit.info,etc .
>>
>> Both men were in 30s thus no kids . If simple laws on the books were enforced than everyone wins. More money for the state-idiots wouldnt own them.

I wish they'd release the autopsy report, which Im sure they will eventually. I do also bet this makes it tougher to get an ROC permit, therefore more people will keep illegally.

I also thought the violation that he had no permit for the Burm would mean his boa would be confiscated too, however they said it was housed properly??? How do you properly care for one snake and not the other?

This whole thing is so very tragic.

I do have a question though, was that a regular albino burm, or an albino green? Curious because she looked so docile and every albino green Ive come in contact with appeared like that.
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1.1.0 YBS
1.3.0 RES
1.0.0 red belly cooter
0.0.2 mud turtles
1.1.0 Savannah Monitor
0.1.0 Blackthroat monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Mountain Horned dragon
2.1.0 Ball pythons
1.0.0 Bearded dragons
cats, dog, ferrets, rabbit, rats.

autopsy report confirmed ephixiation.
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1.1.0 YBS
1.3.0 RES
1.0.0 red belly cooter
0.0.2 mud turtles
1.1.0 Savannah Monitor
0.1.0 Blackthroat monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Mountain Horned dragon
2.1.0 Ball pythons
1.0.0 Bearded dragons
cats, dog, ferrets, rabbit, rats.

Boas are not considered ROC in FL and have different caging and permitting requirements.

While this is a tragic accident...we should not over react and demand more laws or blame LE as if they were not doing there jobs. People die everyday due to the lack of responsiblity. Cocanuts kill 15 people a year falling off of trees! Dogs kill about 30 people a year, and even more then that are killed in horse accidents, and deers running in the road. My prayers go out to the family, but, things like this happen, and those who keep large constrictors and venomous reptiles understand, or should, the chances they are taking. The keeper of that snake, if the facts are as they appear, ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for his stupidity (though I bet he has suffered tremendously already)...but this incident is not a relfection of the hobby as a whole. It is a "freak" accident, caused by carelessness of one individual.

Dan

My thoughts:
We dont need more laws concerning "reptiles of concern". Twelve deaths by large constrictors in the past 29 years is hardly cause for panic. As was already mentioned dogs kill way more people each year than constrictors do in three decades. I have a very good friend in FWC and he enforces what he can. But there is no way they can find all of the illegal owners (many of which are responsible but dont want to pay $100 every year to own their snakes) and confiscate the illegal snakes.
The owner is going to be charged. I would think manslaughter, although the judge will probably be lenient since he has already lost a child. Unless the girlfriend (mother of the child) presses for more since it wasnt his child. Who knows?
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

Posted by: DanielsDen at Thu Jul 2 16:43:50 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by DanielsDen ] Share

While this is a tragic accident...we should not over react and demand more laws or blame LE as if they were not doing there jobs. People die everyday due to the lack of responsiblity. Cocanuts kill 15 people a year falling off of trees! Dogs kill about 30 people a year, and even more then that are killed in horse accidents, and deers running in the road. My prayers go out to the family, but, things like this happen, and those who keep large constrictors and venomous reptiles understand, or should, the chances they are taking. The keeper of that snake, if the facts are as they appear, ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law for his stupidity (though I bet he has suffered tremendously already)...but this incident is not a relfection of the hobby as a whole. It is a "freak" accident, caused by carelessness of one individual.

Dan
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Wow how true that is about the coconuts. I have seen coconuts fall off palm trees and dent cars .
Yet the state continues to plant palm tree's in areas that they are a danger and should not be planted like busy streets,etc.

I imagine more people killed and certainly hurt by falling coconuts due to states incompetence,negligence in a couple of years than all the snake attacks in history of the WORLD.

Well, at some good news:

"Darnell, 32, had no permit for the Burmese python - which survived and will go to a new home. By last night he had not been charged, but officials were probing a range of possible offences including child neglect."

So, they aren't going to fly off the handle and euthanize it like so sadly has happened before.

I love my burm. Looking at the pictures of the snake, it was skinny...at least IMHO....either that or my burm is wicked fat for only being a foot or two longer.

Irresponsible people are what lead to things like HR669...but, 12 people in almost 30 years is actually a really good statistic. Think about how many people die from dog bites, car accidents, drinking, choking on their freaking pizza, etc. At least something was no blown out of proportion and as of now, the snake will be rehomed.

New article....

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1.1.0 spider ball pythons
1.1.0 mojave ball pythons
2.0.0 pastel ball pythons
1.0.0 albino ball python
1.0.0 granite ball python
0.4.0 normal ball pythons
1.0.0 het pied ball python
2.0.0 borneo blood python
1.2.0 sumatran blood python
1.0.0 black blood python
1.0.0 african rock python
0.1.0 albino burmese python
1.0.0 redtail boa
1.0.0 bearded dragon
1.0.0 leopard gecko
2.2.0 cats
1.1.0 cockatiels
0.1.0 bipedal companion

>>
>>Irresponsible people are what lead to things like HR669...but, 12 >people in almost 30 years is actually a really good statistic. >>Think about how many people die from dog bites, car accidents, >>drinking, choking on their freaking pizza, etc.

Exactly. Even relative to the number of households that own or have owned pythons, the number of deaths (and keep in mind most of the deaths are dumb adult owners, not innocent bystanders) is probably vanishingly small. We should be using these statistics to show that pythons are NOT dangerous and/or that python owners are doing a good job keeping people, especially in their own homes, safe.

Obviously this death is a horrible tragedy and an emotional issue, but at the same time, imo, we should use this opportunity to show people how little danger these animals present rather than feeding into the hysteria and misconceptions the general public already has. No matter how many laws we have, once in a blue moon a tragedy will occur.

I put more blame on those who breed and sell them to whomever comes up with the money $$$$.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

Accuially on this I agree with you. As I've said before I keep all of the giants I do not however breed them. There are more then enough out there for those who want them already. The average keeper SHOULD NOT BREED their reptiles!!! Wether it be a burm or retic or a beardy or leopard gecko. I worked at a reptile speciality store for several years and in all that time I sold 3 burms and 1 retic I only sold to people who could prove to me they could care for them properly and were well aware of the size requirenments and potential danger they have. Each person came in several times over the corse of several weeks before I was convinced. I too shudder at each show I go to and see a 13 year old walking out with a burm. I was 13 when I got my first burm and 14 when I got my first retic and I was in over my head It is a minor miricle nothing bad happened but I did have a few close calls I don't want to see anyone else have those close calls before they are a mature enough keeper to properly handle them. I also did not sell pairs to anyone I only sold single sex to coustomers and did all I could to convince them not to breed. so I agree sellers do have a responsibilty to the buisness but more importantaly the hobby so sell responsibilty and not just to make money.
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

Thank you for your post, I agree, its one thing to read that Burmese pythons or Retics get X amount of feet long, but its a TOTALLY different story when you have one and have to care for one that is X amount of feet long...you know.

Its the expereince that is important, I have seen many cases of people walking into a show, slapping down a $100 bucks and walking away with thier FIRST SNAKE!!! a Retic....I asked him as he was walking out the door if he knew how large it was going to get, and he said "BIG"...and kind of chuckled like he thought it was cool, but he truely had no REAL idea how large and how FAST it was going to get big.

You can't treat these snakes like they where cornsnakes, you can't mass produce them in every color and expect everything to be ok when you sell them to just anyone. When I first bought my first burmese python, I really had no idea what to expect, I just bought one over the internet and gave them a try, well they ate ALOT...and grew MUCH faster than I could have ever imagined, it took me years to find the best home I could find for them, and trust me, I turned down MANY people.

The Big 5 are not for me, but thats cool, I still think they are incredible snakes, I just don't think they are for everyone.
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Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick

So how about this. I notice some posted that the owner of the snake that killed the little girl should be prosecuted. Every one I guess agrees he was an idiot, some even suggesting that the owner himself strangled the child. And some here have called me an "idiot" and "absurd". How about this.......... they should prosecute the seller of the snake also.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

prosecuting the seller of the snake wont work just like prosecuting Colt for making a firearm and XYZ gun store for selling the firearm to a person who uses it irresponsibly doesnt work. The courts have ruled on this saying the end user is the one responsible.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

The owner is responsible. If I drive a Ford Mustang and kill a family with it, I am responsible. Ford is not.

You really have little idea what you're talking about don't you vic?
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1.1.0 spider ball pythons
1.1.0 mojave ball pythons
2.0.0 pastel ball pythons
1.0.0 albino ball python
1.0.0 granite ball python
0.4.0 normal ball pythons
1.0.0 het pied ball python
2.0.0 borneo blood python
1.2.0 sumatran blood python
1.0.0 black blood python
1.0.0 african rock python
0.1.0 albino burmese python
1.0.0 redtail boa
1.0.0 bearded dragon
1.0.0 leopard gecko
2.2.0 cats
1.1.0 cockatiels
0.1.0 bipedal companion

Dude its not just about them killing a little girl, its also about the irresponsibe feeding of them whether its feeding the wrong items or not feeding enough, irreponsibley letting them go free and keeping them as a statis symbol and irresponsibley selling them to whom ever will pay. Just because you can't be prosecuted for selling them irresonsibly doesn't mean its not unethical. I know exactly what I'm talking about. I was in this business longer than you've been alive.

Again thanks for effing it up.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

At this point, you have proven that you have no logic. You continuously look at 1 tiny fraction of the owners and lump it into 1 giant group of irresponsible hobbyists. Yeah, people feed inappropriate prey items. Yeah, people release things they "can't handle". This is such a small majority though. I would say this is a perfect example of stereotyping. According to you, some people who keep large constrictors are irresponsible which means all people who keep large constrictors are responsible. That is exactly what you are doing, stereotyping. Good job being ignorant.
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1.1.0 spider ball pythons
1.1.0 mojave ball pythons
2.0.0 pastel ball pythons
1.0.0 albino ball python
1.0.0 granite ball python
0.4.0 normal ball pythons
1.0.0 het pied ball python
2.0.0 borneo blood python
1.2.0 sumatran blood python
1.0.0 black blood python
1.0.0 african rock python
0.1.0 albino burmese python
1.0.0 redtail boa
1.0.0 bearded dragon
1.0.0 leopard gecko
2.2.0 cats
1.1.0 cockatiels
0.1.0 bipedal companion

Talk about ignorant....YOUR own words you just posted "This is such a small majority though". Maybe not all, but yes a "majority" although not small.

I know of about 6 out of 40 big snake keepers that I KNOW who have kept them responsibley. Most of those 40 are freinds who thorough their own experience now know they are to much to handle for the average hobbiest who's got a somewhat busy life. And yes most of them sold them off to anyone who would buy them or gave them to a zoo or show.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

In this case it WILL work, the SELLER broke the law by selling/giving/trading the Burm to someone who didn't already have his ROC permit in place BEFORE he got the snake......Probably because the seller didn't have one either.
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0.1.0 Burmese Python 12'- "Baby"
1.0.0 Albino Granite Burmese Python 6.5'-"Capone"
0.1.0 Albino Burmese Python 11'-"Lacy Underall"
1.0.0 Retic 8.5'-"McLovin"
1.0.0 Retic 13'- "Carl Spackler"
1.0.0 African Rock Python 9'-"Pauly Walnuts"
1.1.0 Ball Pythyons "Yoda" & "Abbey Sciuto"
1.0.0 BCI 7.5'-"Mr.Pink"
0.2.0 BCI 6'-"Scarlett O'Hara & Sloane Peterson"
1.1.0 Bearded Dragons-"Radar O'Reilly & Carol Anne"

I don't disagree that the seller in THIS instance is partially responsible. But prove who the seller was. You can't really. For all anyone knows, this guy bought it in New Jersey on his way home from Aunt Patties in Vermont. The fault then falls 100% onto the individual for lack of proof.
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1.1.0 spider ball pythons
1.1.0 mojave ball pythons
2.0.0 pastel ball pythons
1.0.0 albino ball python
1.0.0 granite ball python
0.4.0 normal ball pythons
1.0.0 het pied ball python
2.0.0 borneo blood python
1.2.0 sumatran blood python
1.0.0 black blood python
1.0.0 african rock python
0.1.0 albino burmese python
1.0.0 redtail boa
1.0.0 bearded dragon
1.0.0 leopard gecko
2.2.0 cats
1.1.0 cockatiels
0.1.0 bipedal companion

>>In this case it WILL work, the SELLER broke the law by selling/giving/trading the Burm to someone who didn't already have his ROC permit in place BEFORE he got the snake......Probably because the seller didn't have one either.
>>-----

NO, There was no ROC law in Florida until January 2008. They had this snake much longer than that, interviews show the mother had as a baby before she met the boyfriend, when or before the deceased child was an infant.
Before 08, pet stores advertised buy now before law goes in effect, and in first few months already burm owners were grandfathered in, until later law was revised
to say everyone needed one. (which unless you were big in reptile community it wasnt right away a known fact) As a matter of fact, if you have one now and no permit, you cant obtain a permit without giving ROC permit number of where you are acquiring one from.

With that said, several years ago was this 21 year old single woman who acquired a baby albino burm, with no permiting requirements, I bet she never paid for it.

The majority of sellers now have all there legalities and codes in place, it still happens, just see craigslist, but they are quickly getting shut down.

In addition, these people, who agree are 100% at fault didnt hide there snake, as a matter of fact Departmetn of family and children photographed it a month before
-----
1.1.0 YBS
1.3.0 RES
1.0.0 red belly cooter
0.0.2 mud turtles
1.1.0 Savannah Monitor
0.1.0 Blackthroat monitor
0.1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Mountain Horned dragon
2.1.0 Ball pythons
1.0.0 Bearded dragons
cats, dog, ferrets, rabbit, rats.

I know exactly when the law was enacted.There never was a good faith consideration made for current owners to be "grandfathered in". Even though there was talk of it unofficially, FWC would have never intentionally cut themselves out of all that revenue from current owners regardless of what they may say.I have both my ROC permit as well as Class III permit to sell the offspring of my ROC as well as my snakes that don't require permits to keep, so I also know just what is required to obtain both.You CAN obtain a ROC permit without providing a permit # from the person you got it from, if A) your snake came from outside the state of FL or B)you had the snake in your possesion before the law was in effect.This was easily proved by those of us who had our snakes microchipped long before someone told us we had to have it done.I realize it happens every day in the quite often tragic (for the animals) situations that arise from acquiring animals from such a place as Craigslist. My point is it's illegal, but there will always be people willing to ignore the laws while the reast of us try to do it right.I don't like the idea ofhaving to pay for permits for animals that I've kept for years any more than the next guy, but if it's that or lose them, the choice is easy.
-----
0.1.0 Burmese Python 12'- "Baby"
1.0.0 Albino Granite Burmese Python 6.5'-"Capone"
0.1.0 Albino Burmese Python 11'-"Lacy Underall"
1.0.0 Retic 8.5'-"McLovin"
1.0.0 Retic 13'- "Carl Spackler"
1.0.0 African Rock Python 9'-"Pauly Walnuts"
1.1.0 Ball Pythyons "Yoda" & "Abbey Sciuto"
1.0.0 BCI 7.5'-"Mr.Pink"
0.2.0 BCI 6'-"Scarlett O'Hara & Sloane Peterson"
1.1.0 Bearded Dragons-"Radar O'Reilly & Carol Anne"

Yes, I had my Burm before the ROC law was enacted. There was no grandfather clause, just a short grace period to allow for compliance. And no, I didn't have to prove where I obtain the snake. There was a question on the form, I think, and I answered it.

In FL, you are supposed to have a Class III permit to sell even one reptile. Truly, things think this happen on a daily basis. Most of the time, it's ignorance of the law as the average Joe who just puts two reptiles together isn't aware of the permitting system.

On this point, even I agree.I have filed all the necessary paperwork, paid the fees, spent the money to build enclosures to spec and jumped through all the legal hoops to make owning my snakes legit.Obviously the ...."individual" who sold/gave/traded the Burm to this guy has not,either out of ignorance of the laws or just wanton disregard for them, because he broke the law by not making sure this idiot had his ROC permit in place BEFORE he gave him the snake.Probably just yet another instance of someone in this strictly for the money, which unfortunately, is a sad fact of any hobby. I do NOT agree,however, that it should have any bearing whatsoever on MY rights to keep MY animals legally.
-----
0.1.0 Burmese Python 12'- "Baby"
1.0.0 Albino Granite Burmese Python 6.5'-"Capone"
0.1.0 Albino Burmese Python 11'-"Lacy Underall"
1.0.0 Retic 8.5'-"McLovin"
1.0.0 Retic 13'- "Carl Spackler"
1.0.0 African Rock Python 9'-"Pauly Walnuts"
1.1.0 Ball Pythyons "Yoda" & "Abbey Sciuto"
1.0.0 BCI 7.5'-"Mr.Pink"
0.2.0 BCI 6'-"Scarlett O'Hara & Sloane Peterson"
1.1.0 Bearded Dragons-"Radar O'Reilly & Carol Anne"

I do NOT agree,however, that it should have any bearing whatsoever on MY rights to keep MY animals legally.

But it will have bearing on your rights to keep your aniamls legally...thats the problem.
-----
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick

Unfortunately my friend,I know this to be all too true.
-----
0.1.0 Burmese Python 12'- "Baby"
1.0.0 Albino Granite Burmese Python 6.5'-"Capone"
0.1.0 Albino Burmese Python 11'-"Lacy Underall"
1.0.0 Retic 8.5'-"McLovin"
1.0.0 Retic 13'- "Carl Spackler"
1.0.0 African Rock Python 9'-"Pauly Walnuts"
1.1.0 Ball Pythyons "Yoda" & "Abbey Sciuto"
1.0.0 BCI 7.5'-"Mr.Pink"
0.2.0 BCI 6'-"Scarlett O'Hara & Sloane Peterson"
1.1.0 Bearded Dragons-"Radar O'Reilly & Carol Anne"

Posted by: Novice_Charmer at Fri Jul 3 11:28:13 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by Novice_Charmer ] Share

On this point, even I agree.I have filed all the necessary paperwork, paid the fees, spent the money to build enclosures to spec and jumped through all the legal hoops to make owning my snakes legit.Obviously the ...."individual" who sold/gave/traded the Burm to this guy has not,either out of ignorance of the laws or just wanton disregard for them, because he broke the law by not making sure this idiot had his ROC permit in place BEFORE he gave him the snake.Probably just yet another instance of someone in this strictly for the money, which unfortunately, is a sad fact of any hobby. I do NOT agree,however, that it should have any bearing whatsoever on MY rights to keep MY animals legally.
--------------
Well put but sadly the way goverment works they prefer to just ban it all.
I keep Kings but dont want a ban as worry it will trickle down to all snake owners.
I do feel like some have said that if they simply enforced permit laws and punished those with large fines who disregard permits than things now move in right direction.
I have emailed Florida senators stating this .

There is already a place here in Florida called Coral Gables which has banned snake ownership.
Though know several disregard it and still keep snakes rather than hire a lawyer to contest it .Rather not have laws like that pass.

Some people do sell their snakes irresponsibly and that is a problem. Some people need to sell their snakes responsibly, and not just scrounge up money from whoever they can then it would help the industry. But I agree with nagrag, most of us on this forum and elsewhere do sell responsibly. You cannot make a stereotype of all big python and boa breeders.

And the industry is not ruined either, have you checked the classifieds or been to any shows lately? Even though I am only 13 years old I understand the reptile industry and appreciate reptiles as much as anyone else on this forum. I mostly breed ball pythons but I have a few retics, burms, and boas but my dad helps me with these snakes.

Just like anything in life, you have to be responsible with your reptiles, and stand up for what you believe. If everyone who likes reptiles spends time to publicly denounce bills like HR669 which affects me then we can keep our passion alive and thriving. Dont just stand there and complain how we effed up the industry take a stand and get people on our side.

Sincerely,
Nic

There's been 12 deaths due to constrictors . Pro-rate this into the hundreds of thousands probably millions of large constrictors that have been sold . The percentages are so low its not even worth talking about.

The REAL problem is people shooting off their mouths about non issues and those that try to exploit the situation . The ones who take unusual off the wall incidents and yap about them like it`s something that happens all the time. The fear mongering and misrepresentation of the facts that accompany's these bizarre incidents . The facts show that deaths related to these animals are EXTREAMLY RARE .

The situation with the two yr. was the FIRST constrictor case in the history of FLORIDA . It was due solely to the careless acts of the individuals involved. Even so what happened was literally more then a million to one.Tragedy's involving young children happen all the time doing things people take for granted.

How many Children have been around constrictors , how many have been raised in the homes of people that keep these animals ? How many deaths have resulted ? EXTREAMLY RARE .

Taking a terrible, bizarre and incredibly rare tragedy and turning it into a judgmental finger pointing witch hunt has become a far to common and deplorable scenario in today's society

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

its not just this one incident, and its not just about the deaths. Its about what a MAJORITY of big snake keepers have done to this hobby/business. Now some here on this forum MAY be in the minority but as I look up and down this forum and see the breeding and selling (in the classifieds) of the numbers these snakes THAT is totally irresponsible. Like I posted before the market is WAY over saturated with the big 5 AND responsible owners. It's also WAY over saturated with irresponsible owners. So if you are breeding and selling them YOU are part of the problem.
-----
Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

It is about this one incident and about the deaths. Its about all the tangible problems. The actual numbers . Its NOT about what people don`t like or what they think is wrong. What your trying to call a problem is actually an opinion that the facts do not support. Your mentally parallels that of all anti ownership groups and is equally as misguided. They turn to opinion , lies and skewing the truth because the facts disprove their claims.

Quite clearly there is no problem regarding what the MAJORITY of big snake keepers have done to this hobby/business. The problem exist with people such as yourself who turn non issues into problems. The facts are clear that there is a long and safe track record in place involving these animals . As far as un wanted animals this is something that happens across the board in the pet world. Its ridiculous to try and single out any one segment let alone a segment that compromises such a small percentage.

The actual tangible issues that can be attributed to these animals comprise a very small percentage. The people that take this small percentage and attempt to escalate it into a major issue are the REAL problem. No one else.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

......

EXACTLY. Twelve deaths. Twenty-nine years.
For arguments sake what if it were zero deaths? Would breeders of the big 5 still be the ones who have "EFFED" up the hobby?
-----
1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

EXACTLY. Twelve deaths. Twenty-nine years.

For arguments sake. I`ll use this for a jumping off point. Not to anyone in particular.

Why discount the three decades or more these animals were commonly available in the pet trade previous to the first incident. Large constrictors have been privately owned in the US for a hundred years.

Without the deaths without the burms , retics etc. the Exotic Animal Trade would still be under fire from anti ownership groups. Just like it always has. Period. Its not about real threats to society or the environment. Its about activist and their attempted exploitation of certain groups and situations . Its about corrupted science and politics , everyone looking to cash in at someone else's expense under the pretense that its for the benefit of all. Its about special interest groups and lobbyist controlling personal freedoms.

I `m not surprised at all the finger pointing on the Internet and in today's blame the other guy society . People acting like if there were no more big snakes it would all go away.

What's wrong is we are being used as scrape goat by organizations looking to profit at our expense . The FACTS are heavily on our side. Instead of people shooting off their mouths about what's wrong with the reptile industry. They should get their heads out of their butts and focus on whats right.

It really takes stone cold idiot to think that if we play nice and give these people what they want things will be all better. Instead of playing into their hands and blaming others,
reptile enthusiast had better focus on sticking together and beating down all the activist BS .

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

"Like I posted before the market is WAY over saturated with the big 5 AND responsible owners

This is totally the opposite of what you have been saying!!!lol. Maybe a typo?lol.

In the end, you are doing nothing except trying to turn an ant hill into a mountian.

It IS over saturated with responsible owners. It's not a typo. Problem is they are in the minority.

Bottom line is that you 5 or 6 here on this forum agrueing with me are really in the minority in the herp business. EVERYONE else in the herp business can see the damage YOU ALL have done to our once thriving business. It was a big 5 owner that brought ill repute to our local herp show and now it no longer happens.

You can ignore or deny it all you want but when ever something ugly happens in the herp hobby its ALWAYS one of two groups. THE BIG 5 or hot reptiles. And way more often than not its the Big 5.

Sorry but I'm signed on with those who are working to limit the big 5 and their influence on our industry. Breeding and selling should be extremely limited and if you all are not willing to do it on your own then maybe SOMEONE elso will do it.
-----
Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

"It IS over saturated with responsible owners. It's not a typo. Problem is they are in the minority."

This makes no sense whatsoever, it clearly contradicts itself. How can the market be over saturated with responsible owners if they are the minority?

Who are you to decide if someone is responsible or not? In 29 years there have been only 12 deaths.

Only 12 people have been IRresponsible in 29 years. That is out of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of large constrictor owners.

The facts have been cleraly pointed out, but yet they are evidently ignored.

In the end, education as well as facts, will outweigh opinions and ideolgies.

Posted by: wstreps at Sat Jul 4 07:57:10 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by wstreps ] Share

There's been 12 deaths due to constrictors . Pro-rate this into the hundreds of thousands probably millions of large constrictors that have been sold . The percentages are so low its not even worth talking about.
------------
Wow for some reason thought way more than that. Guess got caught up in media hype.

There are several venemous bites a year here in Florida by pet snakes some kept legally and some not.

That doesnt make the news or just in passing but the big snakes the news here loves to show over and over.

An older man here in Florida told me that there have been pythons established in Glades for over a 100 yrs .

His father shot one when you could hunt there but with video cameras-cell phone pics and loss of habitat you see them more .
Going to Glades a lot I have yet to see one and know big corns /rat get called pythons by some.

I know they arent native so not saying its okay but imagine vast majority wind up as big gator food .
Either way media would have you think they are wiping out the Glades and soon will come after us lol.

I am too from S.Fl. and used to camp and hunt the glades almost every weekend primarily Big Cypress,even though it was many years ago,Its Hype nearing propoganda(sp?)and never encountered a Burm or other non native except the peacock bass and the Oscar(Voratious Fish)(State Adopted)need a license to catch this introduced Bass(cichlid)species..
You guys got me worried about falling Coconuts, sounds way more dangerous than pythons

Posted by: ChristopherD at Wed Jul 8 15:17:36 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by ChristopherD ] Share

I am too from S.Fl. and used to camp and hunt the glades almost every weekend primarily Big Cypress,even though it was many years ago,Its Hype nearing propoganda(sp?)and never encountered a Burm or other non native except the peacock bass and the Oscar(Voratious Fish)(State Adopted)need a license to catch this introduced Bass(cichlid)species..
You guys got me worried about falling Coconuts, sounds way more dangerous than pythons
--------------
I to fish and go herping by Glades outskirts and never saw a python . Its funny that the only non native fish that has shown to take a toll on native bass, sunfish,etc is the state INTRODUCED Grass carp.

It was introduced by the state to keep canals clear of vegetation but unlike most cichlids it leaves canals .Travels into lakes,etc and gets so huge that it eats native bass eggs as it simply shoves the bass aside.

Those Grass Carp are suppossed to be triploid sterile or non breedable but the adult DO get LARGE ,The Cutler Ridge canal in S.Dade has some jumbos remind me of Tarpon in frenzy when bread is thrown in....definitly some over 30 lbs

I think this topic has brought up a lot of important issues...

However, we all know there is no "fool-proof" way to prevent these gorgeous animals ending up in the wrong hands...

I can't tell you how many times I've gone to expos and seen vendors selling green anacondas to kids.

That being said, it's not quite "fair" to put an age limit on snakes...

How old were you guys when you got started in the hobby?

I do not consider myself an "expert" keeper by any means.

I have been keeping snakes since I was 13...I'm now 18.

I'm going to college for Zoology and you can pretty clearly see my collection listed in my signature.

All the expenses of the animals are paid by me. I work part time during the school year and full time in the summers. (which I have done for 6 years)

I dont handle the big snakes or mess with them when I am alone, I feed them properly with frozen rodents I buy in bulk...

Although, I have never been asked what my experience is...not once.

We are facing a dilemma.... The public focuses on those of us that are irresponsible keepers... and we have no way of controlling those people.

I think that instead of focusing so much on breeding...we need to start educating. I started my educational programs when I got my first snake...

When people see how passionate we are about our animals...maybe we can change some minds?

One of my co-workers fears snakes so much, that she would have her children kill them....but after knowing her for only a period of a few months... she still fears them, but through my blurbs about my animals, she understands them a little better...and no longer kills them.

(she just calls me to come get them from her yard ;P )

just some thoughts!

-----
1.1.0 Hogg Island Boa
0.1.0 Albino Columbian Boa
1.0.0 Emerald Tree Boa
1.0.0 Carpet Python
1.0.0 Jampea Tiger Retic
1.0.0 Red Albino Cornsnake
1.0.0 Water Dragon
0.0.1 Pink Toe Tarantula
0.0.1 Mexican Red Knee Tarantula
....................................

Shed Your Fears!
www.freewebs.com/ShedYourFears

Education goes a long way. But we are still having problems with the selling and breeding of way too many of these snakes.

I'll give you all an example of where education has really worked in the herp industry. Turtles. It is now illegal to sell most turtles until their plastron is 4 inches or bigger. This has really helped with juvenile turtle survival. It also has brought some sanity to the breeding of them.

Here's what I think would work for the Big 5. To make it illegal to sell the big 5 until they are 7 or 8 feet long. Then anyone who is ready to buy one knows up front EXACTLY what they are getting into AND it will limit the breeders most of whom now who want to dump them ASAP.

Uh Oh............ here comes the flamers
-----
Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

actually...that sounds reasonable...(to me anyways)

the breeders of these guys are not going to go for it though.

can you imagine the cost of feeding all those babies until they are 7ft?!

that's going to make the cost of buying one astronomical.

but then again...it doesn't take long for a retic to reach 7ft.

i think in order to buy ANY of the big five...you should have to be licensed, the animal should be chipped...etc.

that way there would be more of a process, not just paypaling the money.
-----
1.1.0 Hogg Island Boa
0.1.0 Albino Columbian Boa
1.0.0 Emerald Tree Boa
1.0.0 Carpet Python
1.0.0 Jampea Tiger Retic
1.0.0 Red Albino Cornsnake
1.0.0 Water Dragon
0.0.1 Pink Toe Tarantula
0.0.1 Mexican Red Knee Tarantula
....................................

Shed Your Fears!
www.freewebs.com/ShedYourFears

" I'll give you all an example of where education has really worked in the herp industry. Turtles. It is now illegal to sell most turtles until their plastron is 4 inches or bigger."

Now ? That law passed in 1976 . Also its the carapace length. This law has been very selectively enforced 99% of the time its not . It never made one bit of difference in anyway. Ten million red ear sliders alone are produced each year . Once again .............

I'm not sure why you would consider it flaming to be filled in with facts .

Ernie Eison
WESTYWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Do you really think putting more restrictions on these animals will stop people from breeding them? For one, how would this be enforced?

OK, lets say people stop breeding them, what about sperm retention? I just got a clutch of Ball Pythons from a female who did not breed this year. It may not be common, but it does happen.

A massive ban would result in a mass release of snakes. Look at Florida where they have to have permits, people do not follow the law.

Regardless of what anyone says, people will still have these animals and continue to breed them. Do you really think the gov. has the funds and man power to go from house to house to make sure?

Federal laws would only move the trade underground, not stop it as you seem to think. The idea of selling them when they are 7 or 8 was clever, but what the person who wants to raise it from a baby?

Vic, I think you have good intentions, but EVERYTHING you have posted has not been based on proof. You keep posting your opinions, while twisting or blatantly ignoring the facts.

And on the turtle law, they have to be sold for educational purposes if the shell length is less than 4 iches.

Posted by: wstreps at Sun Jul 5 13:50:40 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by wstreps ] Share

" I'll give you all an example of where education has really worked in the herp industry. Turtles. It is now illegal to sell most turtles until their plastron is 4 inches or bigger."

Now ? That law passed in 1976 . Also its the carapace length. This law has been very selectively enforced 99% of the time its not . It never made one bit of difference in anyway. Ten million red ear sliders alone are produced each year . Once again .............

I'm not sure why you would consider it flaming to be filled in with facts .
-------------
You can buy them quarter size be it softshell-sliders-snappers,etc at Miami beach by those beach vendors with those plastic islands June to Nov.

Its sad when you see someone buying a tiny snapper $5 with a plastic island type enclosure for another $5.

Pet stores cant sell them but open air vendors can and collect wild babies from EverGlades outskirts during baby season . Its another law not enforced here which is wrong as it competes with law abiding pet stores.

However as of today not illegal to collect baby turtles and lots of them only to sell them in America. Thankfully that in theory is going to change.

I was tempted last week to buy some tiny stinkpots lol but didnt. Though I do look for albinos or two headed turtles being sold. To this day after looking at countless have not found any .

Does this work with other animals such as puppies, kittens, horses, etc. I don't think so. I think the reason why is because the vast majority of the population is not afraid of those animals. Most people grow up with dogs and cats, therefore nothing to fear - right.

My 3 children have grown up with snakes. They respect, but do not fear them in any way. They have all been bitten and even seen snakes with nasty attitudes and still don't fear them as they are not ignorant as is most of the population. Education is more of a key than regulation could ever be.

I do not agree that breeding these animals is wrong. I do agree selling them to a child without parental involvement or making sure they can take care of them is wrong.

BTW - my oldest son (13.5 years old) has his own collection including Retics and Burmese Pythons that he has purchased with own money. He is not permitted to handle them unless I am around to help him and frankly he is smart enough to respect that rule!

I truly have a lot more faith in the average human than it seems Vic has.

I LOVE GIANT SNAKES!

It's not a kid who owned the one who killed the little girl. Its mostly irresponsible adults.

The problem is almost ALL almost every one of you all turns a blind eye to the horrendous damage you have done to the herp business.

BTW nagrag I don't believe you one little bit that you have 26 responsible buyers ready to buy your babies. Prove it.
-----
Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

Vic,

You have proved nothing in any of your posts!!!That is the blatant truth. Out of over 6 Billion people in the world, 300,000 in the USA, he can not find 26 responsible owners?

Vic,

No problem if you do not believe me. I have no problem with that at all. I feel bad for you at this point because you are severely off base with your wrong information.

I like how you don't bother to answer my other questions.

A this point I am convinced that you do not care one bit about the animals. The reason I am in this hobby is because I love the animals. I think you are upset because it is now difficult for you make money and you could care less about these amazing creatures.
-----
1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

I don't think age has anything to do with it, but rather the requirements of the snake being purchased, and are the parents aware of what they're getting into as well?

A corn snake doesn't have the potential to kill the neighbor's dog or child or require hundreds of dollar's worth of carpentry to house properly when full grown.

Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should be able to keep a Burm or croc or Gaboon IF - IF - they can care for it properly and safely. And I've fought for ability. Unfortunately, sellers and buyers need to both hold up thier end of things so that the rest of us don't have our rights taken away. If that means loosing a sale because the buyer isn't prepared to care for a large species for the life of the species, then so be it. Of course life happens and the buyer might have to get rid of the snake eventually, but if the buyer is going into the sell intending to keep it and prepared to keep it even when it's 15' or 20', then that snake is more likely to be cared for properly long-term. If that means freezing a clutch of eggs so the market isn't saturated, so be it.

It just seems to me that there's something very wrong when a "giant" species is selling for less - sometimes far less - than a "harmless beginner" species.

Katrina

Katrina,

Nice input - thanks.

I do think age has something to do with it, even if the parents are in the know. I would not sell an animal with the potential to quite large to a small child - period.

I agree that I want people to be able to own a Gab. Vip. if they want, however I do not see the point in that at all and would never own a hot reptile. I also do not blame people who own hot reptiles for any issues related to the reptile industry. I blame the people who are uneducated and that is about it.

We need to educate people who have no idea about reptiles. There are millions of people that are equally afraid or even terrified of a corn snake as they are a reticulated python. If we get all these bans passed on us, the animals that are already in existence in collections suffer more than any breeder would ever suffer.

-----
1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

I posted my "Sorry, you all aren't going to like this" thread just to get this conversation started. And it worked.

Some of the experiences I posted are true,.... like the trade show post. I also have quit breeding because of the licenseing restrictions Albuquerque NM has put in place. Alot of what I posted is based on what I know is true also. The post about retic keepers going to local grocery stores and looking for signs advertising free puppies/kitten to good home is true. It happened in Phoenix AZ when I lived in AZ in the late 90's. Some of the perpetrators were in the AHA ( Arizona Herp Assoc.) They would take several kids and say that these were their children and tell the puppy/kitten owners that they wanted one for each of their kids. Funny thing is when the officers of the AHA confronted them about it they thought it was funny and said they were only getting cheap food. The bad part about it was that it was all over the local TV and print news in Pheonix. There was also the story about the guy who kept a pet blacktail rattlesnake that bite and killed him when he handled it....drunk.

Look this conversation has been needing to be brought to the forefront for sometime now. I do not blame all of you for the issues the herp business is facing but look yourselves in the mirror and realize that far to many of you all do breed and sell these snakes to some VERY irresponsible people. Page up and down on this forum and ask yourselves, where are all these babies going? Ask yourselves if its really nessary to breed them at all. There is a glut of them on the market now. The market is saturated with responsible owners and way over saturated with totally irresponsible and sometimes ignorant owners. I don't mean to use the word ignorant in a derogatory way here either.

I am glad that some of you all are starting to see what many of us in the rest of the business are experiencing.

Now you can really flame me for getting you all stirred up.... LOL
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

Hey Vic.

I apologize once again for my initial reply. I am a bit surprised at myself for my reaction to your post. I am normally a really calm and collected individual.

So, please accept my sincere apology for an unacceptable response.

I do think that the regulations you are facing suck and hope that organizations like USARK can help. I will continue to do my part with very limited breeding as well as a very selective customer base.

I have to say that I do this for the love of the reptiles, not for money. That is probably why my response to you was so emotional. I really love reptiles (of all kinds), but have a really big soft spot for the giants. I acquired my first Burmese Python in 1988 and have been in love ever since.

I'm not sure I will thank you for you post, but I will say that I have never seen a subject take off like this. I have also never been so quick to engage and from a negative perspective.

Have a Happy 4th of July and celebrate the great nation we are.

Actually my name is Chris and apology accepted. I had a pretty good feeling that I would stir things up good. The story about our local herp show is also true. We did have several people stake out the parking lot of the hotel we used to have the herp show at. These individuals wouldn't even buy a ticket to get in the show. They were just trying to sell their 8 foot "babies" to anyone who would buy them in the parking lot. Unfortunately after the fiasco with the 11 year old getting a "free snake" and then his parents telling him he couldn't have it, that was the begining of the end of our shows here. The next show, the city animal control officers and NM Game and Fish came into the show and made all of the vendors buy business licences and exotic animal permits or they could not sell and would face fines. Needless to say none of the vendors wanted to come back to our show. It (the show) no longer exists. We did some checking and the guys who were selling in the parking lot had bought those same snakes at our show two years before as juvies. The vendor was one of the big well know vendors from the west coast.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

LOL Nice job
I see both sides but prefer to keep legislation out of it.
In a perfect world breeders would only supply what responsible owners would buy.
History has shown when you allow government to regulate, the abuse it. Like gun owners have said, "they can have my snake when they pry it out of my cold dead hand". If I lived in a locale like you do that passed ridiculous legislation banning snakes, I would move. Not everyone has that option but I do.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

They didn't ban snakes. I'm just not willing to allow access to my home for inspections. Nor am I willing to buy licenses every year to keep small non-poisonous non-dangerous reptiles. Nor am I willing to pay tax on them.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

Well by passing conditions like the ones you mentioned, it is a pseudo ban in my view.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

I hear you, but what you are saying is not limited to big constrictors. There are far more ball pythons, probably more boa constrictors and probably more corn snakes than giant pythons up for adoption at any one time. At least that's what I see in my area of the country.

>>I posted my "Sorry, you all aren't going to like this" thread just to get this conversation started. And it worked.
>>
>> Some of the experiences I posted are true,.... like the trade show post. I also have quit breeding because of the licenseing restrictions Albuquerque NM has put in place. Alot of what I posted is based on what I know is true also. The post about retic keepers going to local grocery stores and looking for signs advertising free puppies/kitten to good home is true. It happened in Phoenix AZ when I lived in AZ in the late 90's. Some of the perpetrators were in the AHA ( Arizona Herp Assoc.) They would take several kids and say that these were their children and tell the puppy/kitten owners that they wanted one for each of their kids. Funny thing is when the officers of the AHA confronted them about it they thought it was funny and said they were only getting cheap food. The bad part about it was that it was all over the local TV and print news in Pheonix. There was also the story about the guy who kept a pet blacktail rattlesnake that bite and killed him when he handled it....drunk.
>>
>>Look this conversation has been needing to be brought to the forefront for sometime now. I do not blame all of you for the issues the herp business is facing but look yourselves in the mirror and realize that far to many of you all do breed and sell these snakes to some VERY irresponsible people. Page up and down on this forum and ask yourselves, where are all these babies going? Ask yourselves if its really nessary to breed them at all. There is a glut of them on the market now. The market is saturated with responsible owners and way over saturated with totally irresponsible and sometimes ignorant owners. I don't mean to use the word ignorant in a derogatory way here either.
>>
>>I am glad that some of you all are starting to see what many of us in the rest of the business are experiencing.
>>
>>
>>Now you can really flame me for getting you all stirred up.... LOL
>>-----
>>Vichris
>>"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius
>>
>>
>>Vichris Variables

Yes but most of those snakes do not require the same amount of attention that burms/retics and anacondas do. Most people can easily afford to feed their smaller snakes, mice and rats. Most folks also don't have to worry about their snakes killing them or their children. Cleaning up their crap is a cinch and you don't have to dedicate a whole room or section of their home to them.

Thats really the problem I've seen numerous sellers minimize or worse, don't even bring up, the care that the big 5 really require.

Just about anyone can be a good candidate for a ball, corn, or kingsnake. Few are good candidates for these larger snakes. I know I'm not mostly because I dont care to have an animal that requires that much attention. Unfortunately some who have them find out AFTER the fact that they really need some serious attention for food, housing, temps, and security.

I don't mean to sound disrepectful here natsamjosh but your post really sounds like you are stretching for excuses.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

I have found it is much easier to find homes for Ball Pythons, Bearded Dragons, Suclata Torts, and Cornsnakes, than it is to find homes for a 8-10 foot Burmese or Retic. Thats how it is out in my neck of the woods. While there might be more up for adoption, they get adopted much quicker and easier than Burmese or Retics.
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Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick

eliminating all the fool killers - helmet laws, etc. Well, here's another fool killer that'll be going soon, I imagine.

Or maybe it has already happened - the fools outnumber us.

I found this whole list of postings to be very interesting to say the least. As somewhat of a newcomer to the herping world the whole controversy of it has interested me very much. I have looked at the ENP and other stories. I have done some of my own homework about the larger constrictors, mainly burms and retics. My wife was the person who got me started in keeping and raising herps. She started a passion for knowledge within me. She calls it a sickness...LOL! I just found an intense interest in observing and handling something that I once was afraid of, and still respect. Something that a majority of people will never understand or experience in this world or lifetime. Regulation of ourselves is what is needed, not an overregulation by our government. Setting an age limit is a good idea, but what if there was a release that was to be signed by the parents of a minor stating that they would accept some or all of the responsibility of ensuring care or a new acceptable home for the animal or its return to the breeder/seller? Why can't we as hobbyist organize or help organize meetings with more city/local governments to help our cause? A better education of the general public is also something that is needed in my eyes as well. Most of the general public does not understand us period. They fear what they don't understand. Responsible herpers have educated themselves in many ways. It is our job to educate or help educate other herpers who are interested in a purchase of the magnitude of a large constrictor as to the responsibilities and hazards if they are unaware of them or unsure. There is more to being a breeder than just breeding and selling. I'm not picking on anyone outright. This is everyone. I know there are some who have excellent customer service, but also some who are lacking a little. It's more than turning a dollar here folks. It's an expensive business, yes. Self restraint should be used in the breeding and selling of these animals. Dogs end up being over bred. Horses are the same way. I'm rambling a bit I know. We have three retics and three burms. Not once was age experince or anything questioned no matter how they were purchased. Two of the burms on the net, two of the retics as well. The others were bought in person. A little background goes a long way. I regret that anything negative has or will happen. I feel for the mother of the little girl who just passed away. It was needless and senseless. It is a bad blow to all of us no matter what our status with herps. Thanks.

I think most here would admit that even recently there is no questioning husbandry when buying a retic or burm,......just Whats your paypal account and when can you ship? I even think most here will admit to selling to anyone who has the money, and MAYBE pointing them to a care sheet but maintaining that vagueness about just whats going to be happening 3-5 years down the line.

How many rabbits/chickens are they going to need a week????? And their enclosure is a ROOM???? With a dead bolt and lock??? And how nasty is their temperament going to get when I can't afford it or its just too inconvienient to go pick up some piglets or rabbits. I wonder if Walmart carrys whole piglets? Hmmmm I hope I see some road kill on the way home. A couple of Raccoons or Possums would be great. And what about that stinking pile of crap in there you gotta clean up. The whole house smells like [bleep]. And damn, that gas/electric bill is killing me. I even have to heat it in the summer.

Sorry............. I just posted the "secret thoughts" of the average burm/retic keeper......... LOL

You know its true too.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

Edited on July 9, 2009 at 23:03:00 by PHGinger.

I consider myself an average Burm keeper, but I do not have any of the problems you have mentioned. I have four adult animals which are beteen 8 and 12 feet long. Out of all the snakes I own, I have well over 100, the Burms are the easiest to care for.

Unlike ball pythons and corns, Burms do not have to eat every week, they can easily be fed every 2 or 3 weeks if neccesary. Feeders can easily be obtained through the internet.

Another thing, out of everything I own, the only ones who have never bitten me are the Burms.

All my animals are in a separate building, the building is kept warm in the winter, but in the summer no heat is required.

Given the proper care, Burms make excellent pets. You seem to think people who buy these animlas are not able to care for them. What I do not understand is, why do you think the average person is incompetent? I know many people who have Burms and everyone of those animals is properly cared for.

Just my thoughts.lol.

No you are not the average keeper IF you really do keep them the way you post you do. Unfortunately most people don't have a "spare" seperate building to keep them in. And the reason I think alot of burm/retic keepers are incompetant is because they prove it themselves. And those who post here are just a small fraction of those who keep them.

Take a look YOU are the only one to respond to my post. Chirp chirp chirp (the sound of crickets). It MIGHT not be true for you MAYBE...... but it is true for most of the keepers I know and have known.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

I keep all of my reptiles in a spare room of the house that I have converted into a office. Since I have no children, I do not lock the room.
The retics I have are very easy keepers. Both were purchased from the classifieds here on kingsnake. The sellers asked me no questions, but it may be because I asked the questions. They have been great animals with zero problems.
I think if you polled the general public and said here it is: The FACTS are more people are killed by dogs in a 12 month period than are killed by burmese pythons in a 30 YEAR period. With that in mind do you favor a total ban on Burmese pythons? If they answer yes, they would have to agree that a total ban on canines would save more lives and thus would be more logical. If they dont agree, even when presented with the above, they are illogical.
It seems to me that when laws are passed concerning reptiles, they are passed without discussion behind some committee door. The reason HR669 failed was because herp groups caught wind of the proposed regs and fought them. And won.
So the answer in my view isnt regulation. Ideally we would love everyone to do their research before purchasing one of the big 5. But unfortunately its not realistic. Just like people not doing their homework before buying a puppy or someone having a child without knowing what they are getting into. 98% of the time everything turns out okay. The other 2% are the horror stories. We in society have to deal with the 2%.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

Most of the people (actually, all of the people) I know who keep Burms keep them responsibly.

I have my ROC permit, sending off the renewal today, but I don't feel the need to complain about it on the Internet. The people I referred to are professionals and don't post here. The ones I know on this forum have not responded to your post because this is the type of hyped up conversation they usually avoid.

Lots of generalizations here...."everyone"..."the average keeper"

I'll admit this is no more accurate as some of the data some of you all here have posted. But I think its an honest answer and probably very close to what is really happening in regards to the "Big 5".

This info came from the Retic forum. In regards to retic sales....

" my 2 cents on this is, i see retic/burm/rock/anaconda keepers or want to be keepers as being broke down into 4 categories. first- you have the true keepers for the love of the snake and everything that goes with it. second- you have the people that see a little snake and think how "cute it is" and impulse buy, then when it hits 12 feet and beyond, they are ready to sell it or abandon it or god forbid, just let it loose. third- you have the people that buy it simply for the coolness factor. and last but not least- you have the flippers. they buy at wholesale prices, and just want to make whatever money they can off of them. cant prove any of this or show any hardcore evidence, but just my own opinion and what i have witnessed in my time with snakes, especially the giants"

My question with regard to percentages.......

"What would you say are the percentages of each of those 4 catagories that you named, from your experience?

Thank God for those of you who are truly responsible keepers"

And his answer............

"in my experience (as well as a little educated guess), i would say that, if out of a 100 people that buy/sell/trade large snakes: 40% are true good keepers and do it because they love it. then i would say 30% are the ones that buy to be the cool one in the group to have a very large snake in the near future. then i would say 25% would be the flippers. and the rest fall in that last 5%. unfortunately its that 30% (in my opinion of course), that is a huge part of the reason the hr669 is around and will continue to linger, and probably end up being passed, at somepoint"

This is pretty darn close to my experience also. About 35%-40% are responsible owners. The other 60% are irresponsible. Some from honestly just not knowing, and some are willingly ignorant. Some just want to turn a buck.

So my question is how many of the big 5 have you all sold to that 60%. It's a legitimate question and I for one would like an HONEST answer.

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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

"
We have three retics and three burms. Not once was age experince or anything questioned no matter how they were purchased. Two of the burms on the net, two of the retics as well. The others were bought in person. A little background goes a long way."

I totally agree with your last statement, a little backgrouind goes a long way...It literally took me 24 hours to attain a Burmese python, and it took us almost 2 years to find a good home for it, because I was very stringant as to who would take them on.

I purchased an Alligator once over the internet, same thing, never asked my age, experience nothing....I truely believe there are some reptiles that should only be kept by experienced and capable people, and for some reptiles that is a small handful. Even with my Ball Pythons and Carpet Pythons I breed now, I even ask questions when selling them, I want to make sure the offspring I produce go to people who know what thier doing, I think its even more important with the Big 5.
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Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick