Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Was just at the house during my lunch break watching the news. They were talking about a 2 year old child being killed by the families 12 foot pet burmese python here in Florida. You can bet good ole Bill Nelson will pick up the ball and run with it.

Here is a link to the news report.
Channel 6 news report

Yup, I, knew about it this morning. It's a very BAD thing for responsible herpers.....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Obviously this can't be a good thing for anyone, at best it's a horrific tragedy, but given how irresponsible and wrong the media can be, especially with anything python related, I think it's reasonable to wait a few days before coming to any conclusions. I don't think police have had nearly enough time to complete an investigation. And the story this guy is giving (assuming the media is reporting it correctly) is pretty strange, if not outright suspicious. He is either very smart (ie, covering something up), or the absolute dumbest person on the planet.

http://www.wftv.com/news/19915016/detail.html

Thanks,
Ed

>>Yup, I, knew about it this morning. It's a very BAD thing for responsible herpers.....
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

I don't believe that the snake killed that child.

Jeff,

Thanks for providing the link to read the article...It is simply amazing to me (but not a surpise) that the article even cites the information provided by the Humane Society US (HSUS)...But it does continue the fear "propaganda" of the AR agenda...Scare the American public into legislative action to curtail the "threat" of pythons in the US.

This is what I'm talking about...according to the HSUS in the article, “at least 12 people have been killed in the United states by pet pythons since 1980”…Really? The HSUS was all over that story (probably contacted by the news channel for comment-they have to keep the "storyline" going) in less than a few hours! They must be keeping track of herp related deaths in the US…Just like the media keeps the “score” in Iraq & Afghanistan…

Ummm, let’s see…

According to the NHTSA’s National Center for Statistics and Analysis, 41,059 people died 2007 in the US from vehicle accidents (mean = 112 per day) with 3,800 alone occurring in the month of July.

The National Center for Statistics and Analysis (NHTSA) reports the annual average of fatalities (national vital statistics system special mortality file, 2003-2004) due to non-crash incidents for children 14 and under are: 27 (hyperthermia), 5 (asphyxia-closed windows), 4 (object strike) and 3 (carbon monoxide poisoning-vehicle exhaust).

According to the National Vital Statistics Report of 2006 from the CDC, 5,298 persons in the US died from injuries at work (mean = 14.5 per day) and 569 women died of maternal causes (mean = 1.6 per day) - not including all deaths occurring to pregnant women. Also, of note is that in 2006, some 6,225 people died in the US as a result of a bacterial inflammation of the intestines (enterocolitis) that was acquired in HOSPITALS and OTHER HEALTH CARE INSTITUTIONS (mean = 17 per day)!

The CDC’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control reports that in 2005 some 5,686 persons in the US between the ages of 10 to 24 years old died as a result of homicide (mean = 16 per day).

Information from the Wilderness Medical Society is that during the period of 1991-2001 some 533 persons in the US died from hornet, bee or wasp sting (mean = 0.14 per day) and only 57 from venomous snake bite (mean = 0.06 per day) during the same period.

According to the National Lightning Safety Institute, 756 persons in the US died from lightning strike (mean = 0.16 per day) with 126 occurring in Florida (number one) during the period of 1990-2003.

It’s a good thing that we have the HSUS to be Johnny-on-the-spot to provide us with the PERILOUS threat of fatality (12 total) from pythons in the US during the past 29 YEARS (mean = 0.001 per day)! To put this in perspective, according to data from the Florida Museum of Natural History over a 337 YEAR period (1670-2007), some 54 persons in the US have died as a result of shark attack (mean = 0.0004 per day). Finally, according to data from the US Census Bureau for the year 2000 (100% data), there were 281,053,906 persons in the United States and a total of 12 of them died from python attack in the last 29 years!

THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT HUMAN FATALITY FROM PYTHONS IS STATISTICALLY INSIGNIFICANT!!! Meaning the data of 12 fatalities total in 29 years is absolutely meaningless and provided ONLY to support the AR agenda!

Lions and tigers and bears…OH MY!

Later,
Jim.
-----
CSRAJim

maybe they could work on this a little more...

Death rate extrapolations for USA for Breast Cancer: 41100 per year, ...

Researchers estimated there will 1,479,350 new cancer cases diagnosed in 2009, and 562,340 deaths.

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/05/27/cancer-deaths-us.html

Tracy,

I sincerely doubt that cancer deaths from all forms is even on their radar screen in any manner, shape or form…You bring up a good point here in that the things that we should be paying attention to (and funding to HELP genuine issues of concern) do not fit into the AR agenda…

I wonder if we’ll have access to data after the government takes control over our health care system…I suspect that it will be very difficult to find the true numbers because they will not be good. I’ve been dealing with the VA for many years for my brother and if the “new” government run health care system is run anything like the VA…Many of us will have a dire result “waiting” for any treatment what-so-ever for serious medical services…And as a consequence, the fatalities will not be a positive reflection on the “success” of the program.

But I went off on a tangent here, like any legislation that the government proposes is going to have ANY effect on “invasive species”…Hardly. The animals will find a way whether it’s man or nature and I know we are not going to stop trading with China, Korea, Mexico, etc…Who have virtually NO “inspection” of exports and as a consequence, will result in MORE invasive species here in the US...Regardless of any "bill" passed by the professional politicians in congress-can you say lead paint in children's toys and chemicals in dog food or E. coli on imported vegetables? And then there are our own food exports to feed the third world countries with socialist “democracies” or outright dictatorships that exploit the people…And let them starve and suffer from malnutrition…I wonder how many plant and insect “invasive species” the US will be blamed for as a result of those sacks of grain…

Sorry for the cynicism here but, none of what they are doing as anything to do with biodiversity, invasive species, habitat protection, climate change, etc…All of that “stuff” is nothing more than “propaganda”…I used to be in support of the ESA, Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, etc…But not anymore because of the money and the politics involved. It’s about the special interests of power that has become an agenda…It ain’t about the environment or conservation at all…

I really appreciate the papers that you and Dave did…Thanks for taking a stand. Are y’all going to keep tabs on the USGS, NPS, UF Burmese Python “experiment”? I wonder if it will scientific or agenda…Only time will tell.

Later,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

Tracey are you suggesting we ban breasts? If so I'm going to mount a protest...lol
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I second Tracy on this. As I lost my wife (of 17 yrs.) to Breast cancer in 2003.

Maybe people should get their priorities together and concentrate on what really matters.

Sure, this is horrible news for reptile keepers, especially respondsible keepers, but c'mon,, accidents happen and we still don't know if the Burmese WAS the culprit.

Randal Berry

I think everone is losing sight of the real tragedy here. It's the little girl. If anything other that that snake killed the little girl it will easily be found by the coroner. Dangerous animals and small children are a bad mix. Animals have instincts and children are curious.
-----
Steve W.

Absolutely Steve.
-----
Todd Hughes

There is perhaps more to this "attack" than meets the eye. Without saying more it is possible the snake did NOT kill the child. It appears the snake was about an eight foot long albino Burmese Python judging from the pics. Regardless the fatality rate on just dog related attacks are actually fairly numerous yet no one tries to ban "man's best friend"...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom,

I agree man…The “act of predation bite” may be post-mortem in an attempt to blame the reptile for something that a human did…Just a thought…Time will tell. My response was based on both the reaction of the media and the “without-a-thought” response from the HSUS…Kind of like a knee jerk reaction to carry the “storyline” of their agenda. After all, a alleged “tragedy” is an opportunity and a terrible thing to waste…

But hey, they can’t kick sand in the eyes of dog and cat owners (yet) as that would be a severe curtailment of funds (donations) for them to operate (and some of them would have to get a real job and truly “volunteer” their time)…And as a consequence, severely restrict the HSUS “message”…

If the HSUS (and any other 501c3 "dot.org" for that matter) is ever "subsidized" by the taxpayers...And they no longer need donations...That's when the "fur" will fly...Ha! Ha! Right now, even the HUGE philanthropic ORG's are having a tuff time financially...And as a consequence, not as much 501c3 money to donate via "grants"...So they're "roughing it" a bit these days. Speaking of taxpayer "subsidies", have you researched H.R. 1698 (Green Bank Act of 2009)...the government WILL provide taxpayer "subsidies" via this bank (can you say Cap and Trade-just the beginning-the bill is in the house ways and means committee right now)...This bill addresses the MAB issue of climate change (not specifically stated but if you read the MAP, you'll SEE it-it can be found in A.1. Climate Change) and we, the taxpayers, are already subsidizing the conservation elements(biodiversity, invasive species, habitat, etc) and have been for DECADES via the Department of the Interior and its agencies. Millions of tax dollars are being used to acquire private lands and place them under the "public" domain...

Endangered and threatened species is just the "propaganda" of the cover story for what they're really doing...Do you remember that map of the United States that appeared ca. 1996-7 showing the US divided up into core areas (no humans-except for sanctioned scientists, etc); buffer zones (government approved “activities”) and the transition areas (where the humans will live, work and play)? As a result of that map, the House passed H.R. 883 (American Land Sovereignty Act) and H.R. 901 (American Land Sovereignty Protection Act) - that curiously was not passed in the senate and President Clinton's minions testified before the house committee on resources that the President would VETO the bill if passed - and as a result of the negative publicity (they blame it on talk radio), the MAB in the US went underground...But it didn't go away...Agencies of the Interior Department (and numerous like-minded dot.org's) have been quietly implementing since then...And still are today.

In other words, the USMAB (it is a US program) has adopted the "tenets" of UNESCO's MAB...All you have to do is compare the Madrid Action Plan (MAP) to say what the USFWS is doing with their state grants...The MAP specifies the use of "zonation" (core area, buffer zone and transition area) terminology and when you read the state grant funding write ups for each FY state “grant” from the USFWS...You'll SEE the SAME terminology...Core, buffer, corridors, linkages, connectivity, etc...Of note hear is that CALIFORNIA receives the OVERWHELMING lion share of these tax dollars…And curiously, these tax dollars go into a LOT of the congressional districts of many of these same professional politicians, who in return, receive very favorable press from the same “dot.org’s when they run for reelection…but there’s no “quid-pro-quo” here at all…So the dot.org’s get taxpayer dollars for their agenda…The government implements it and the wheel goes round and round…It’s been going on for decades.

You'll SEE the "partnership" between the government and a "private" dot.org’s called the The Nature Conservancy, time and time again. Of note here is that the MAP specifies using "partners" (the TNC is even listed within the MAP itself) in local, regional, national, etc efforts in its implementation...Curiously, in the press releases that are disseminated to the media, none of the names of these "partners" are ever listed...You just SEE terminology such as "stakeholder(s)". Every time you SEE this terminology used (or hear it) in the media, now you'll know that this is code speak...I've been reading this terminology of "stakeholder" (private dot.org, NGO, government agency, etc), "decisionmaker" (government agency-after the bill is passed into law-they promulgate the regulations), "policymaker" (professional politician that votes to support special interests and "sells" the agenda on election day), etc, etc, etc. These terms have been in use for decades...

What’s absolutely absurd in this is reading the “press releases” from the senators and members of congress regarding the “appropriations” of tax dollars to protect species, habitats, biodiversity, etc via the “grants”…Now that I know I just have to laugh at their emperor’s clothing! Ha! Ha! Some of these Habitat Conservation Plans (HCP) have been going on in the SAME areas for five years…The money just keeps rolling in.

Later,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

>>There is perhaps more to this "attack" than meets the eye. Without saying more it is possible the snake did NOT kill the child. It appears the snake was about an eight foot long albino Burmese Python judging from the pics. Regardless the fatality rate on just dog related attacks are actually fairly numerous yet no one tries to ban "man's best friend"...
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

ACTUALLY Tom, I hate to differ with this, BUT the AR organizations have in fact gone after man's best friend. They just pick and choose which friend to go after. They propagate lies and stories on certain breeds and are fully endorsing the eradication of specific breeds. They always start with the "scariest" animal.
PETA and BSL

-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Pethobbyist on Twitter!

You guys are my heroes and you stated everything I have been thinking since yesterday. Who knows how true the story is? Seems almost made for the media if you ask me. The compare/contrast is pure genius. Lets put it into perspective. If the snake truly did the deed than:
1) that dude should have had a permit
2) the snake should have been in a locked enclosure
3) with small children in the home, the locked enclosure, I feel, should be in a locked room.
At the very least the dude was a bonehead.... at the most, he was evil.

Perspective:
1) personal risk to python owners and family compared to risk from other hobbies, occupations and things which keep us well rounded and happy.
2) risk to the environment compared/contrasted with species/industries which would be exempted from federal legislation.
3) Benefits to us and society in general. Intrinsic, educational, monetary, etc.

Just a couple thoughts as I sip my morning coffee. Keep up the good fight, you guys rock!

WHat's further, what kind of irresponsible (beep) is just waking up at 10-11 am with a two year old in the house? I have a two year old and I'm lucky to sleep till 8. The snake was emaciated, put in a sack in a tank overnight and basically told to play nice. Why this animal was kept like this (what's worse, why it had access to this child) are things I can't even fathom. If they do not charge this creep with criminal negligence (or worse)I would be appauled. This type of behavior is disgusting, and gives me grief from my frieds who know I keep constrictors in the house with my two year old, and at work when people ask me about our retic exhibit. (seriuosly, i get questions like "has it ever killed anyone", or "how many people would it kill if it got out?" & my personal favorite--"if ya don't feed it people than what's that there anaconda eat then?"--that's right, anaconda, while standing next to the large exhibit sign that says reticulated python. )Anyway, my heart goes out to that little girl and any non-idiot relatives she may have--at least she's safe from them now.

I watched a 7 minute video click news 6 on scene live action report online. It was so full of errors, assumptions, and misstatements of fact. Pretty much just the stuff of urban legend, myth, and folklore. That woman reporter was worked up into such a frenzy. I was actually embarrassed for her with her complete ineptness and her uninspiring bush-league interview style. How does that Eagles song go, again?
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

We can all complain about how the HSUS is quoted within hours of the incident first being reported, and how they need to put the death-by-python rate in perspective, but I'd venture a guess that HSUS probably contacted the relevant news agencies themselves, if they are indeed so adamant about pushing their agenda.

Have ANY local/regional/state herp societies in FL done the same? Has USARK? If not, they need to start. It won't make the HSUS folks go away, but at least it could provide some much needed counterpoint in the articles.

For example, it would've been nice to note that the snake's owner was already in violation of caging requirements already existent in Florida law, and that he did not have the permit already required by law.
-----
Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris,

All relevant points and we’ll see what happens in time…Whether the contact was HSUS to media or the other way around you are right, THEY are controlling the message…

This is a mute point here but, I believe that it was a media to HSUS contact because as part of the agenda, they get grants from the philanthropies for “outreach” and “educational” efforts…That contains the “storylines” and the contact information…As part of being a 501c3, one of the tax-exempt, non-profit requirements is “education”…Which includes the media (including AWARDS when the media gets it right)…

After all, unless the HSUS is using media scanners, how would they know to contact the media with a statement? This is just my venture of a guess here but the bottom line is they control the message right now and regardless of how this turns out they got their 5 minutes of fame in the press…Once again.

Thanks,
Jim.

-----
CSRAJim

While this is SPECULATION on my part, I think there is a good possibility that at this point the police want the public to believe this was an accident even if they suspect foul play. Let's face it, the details released so far don't really make much sense, and it's hard to believe that in the few hours between the 911 call and when the story appeared on the news that the police could complete an investigation and determine cause of death. Sometimes the police want a suspected criminal to believe he got away with the crime. Unfortunately, this case had a Burmese python involved, so all the other stupidity has resulted.

Thanks,
Ed

Actually, the local news in this area(depending on the channel) reported that the Sumter county sheriff was working with FWC to complete an investigation and to determine if child neglect or any other influences had come into play. They also announced that an autopsy would be done today to determine the cause of death.

One of our local stations also interviewed FWC who discussed the FL permits and for once the media didn't present pythons as giant man-eating hideous beasts.

Soo...some stations are painting a more balanced picture. In all fairness, when a big story breaks and a victim is involved, the police and the media generally go with the story until evidence proves otherwise.

I'm not a snake expert, but I've cared for 13' Burmese and a 6' very pissy redtail boa at a natural history museum, and I've seen a lot of big snakes owned by friends. "My" boa was a much bigger PIA than the bigger Burmese in terms of care and handling, other than the sheer bulk of the Burmese.

I'm seeing an underweight, under responsive snake in the video, how about you guys? That snake, in terms of body condition, seems smaller than "my" 6' boa was. I was a 20 yr old female in good shape when I cared for the those snakes. I had to wrangle the boa on a few occasions where she wrapped herself around objects (poles, logs, me) and DID NOT want to leave. For a snake that size, I'm thinking my first instint - and ability - would be to grab the head and unwrap the snake, something IMO a resonably healthy man should have been able to do by himself. Am I wrong? So, WHY did he have to run to the kitchen to grab a knife?

If others with more experience feel the same, then an expert on large snakes needs to contact the authorities and explain what they're seeing in the video and offer thier services in investigating this death. While I think an 8.5' Burm COULD kill a 2 yr old, I'm questioning whether THAT 8.5' Burm could kill a healthy 2 yr old. I'm glad they're doing an autopsy, just hope the coroner understands how a snake kills prey.

Katrina

it is very sad that a little child was killed. VERY SAD. If she died as a result of being constricted to death? a horrible death for anyone, but a child? HORRIBLE.
-----
Proud supporter of USARK and Kingsnake.com
“We stand together or we fall apart”

Kyle
www.royalvariations.com

"be safe, be happy and dont let anyone make you afraid"
David Coverdale