Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, against my better judgement and advice of zonata breeding friends, I decided to try to feed one of my zonata as much as I do my getula. To keep questions to a minimum: Animal plastics "economy" rack. (this rack has open sides which allows for a larger temp gradient). Rubbermaid 2220 tubs. Spyderobitics controller set with 7 degree night drop. Multiple hides, including humid hide, water dish, aspen bedding, tile "rack" on hot side. Temps are 88 hot and 72 cold. The snake in question is almost three year old Zonata Parviruba female, 21 inches long, that is super aggressive and always takes her food. The snake was purchased as a two year old from Ric Blair. Her normal feed is one hopper (large fuzzy to me) mouse every five days. On the 21st I fed her one hopper and then on the 24th I decided to try and give her two more. The results were NOT good. I noticed the swelling from her meal had not gone down by the 28th. I began to worry then. Well, today she regurgitated one of the hoppers (mostly hair and a foot) and still has some swelling from her mid body down. In all other cases there would be no "lump" after two days and she seemed ready to eat again. On the other hand, I fed my cal king (30 inch snake) two adult mice and one jumbo mouse in a four day period with absolutely no problems. Mountain kings are different. Period. I will NEVER feed one of my zonata this way again.

I'm not saying anything at this point. I'll let the "professionals" handle it. Last time I tried to help it got ridiculous, but I think you know what NOT to do and now know that not all kings are created equal. Best wishes Purdy.

Laguna

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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Maybe there is another reason your parv regurged. For instance, a hopper/fuzzy is MUCH easier to digest than a large sceloperous or skink (food they eat in the wild) and a large fuzzy should just melt away compared to a reptile like a fence lizard. So maybe you just think you fed it to much.

This week I also had a few snakes regurge. This usually rarely happens and it was not even snakes i was feeding much. It may just have something to do with another factor.

This time of year i notice non-breeding females tend to slow down while breeding females eat like crazy. males tend to go off food completly or eat spradically. I never worry about males anyway because they just don't need the weight/fat that females do for the egg laying experience. Also last week it got a little hot in my snake room and a few of my snakes regurged because of the heat (at least that is what I think happened) as they were pressed up against the cage trying to escape the heat.

There could be many factors that contributed to your zonata not digesting its meal properly. I bet if it was winter people would point the finger at temps that were to cool. Sometimes we just never know what these snakes are doing. But if they want to eat, then feed them. I think that sometimes people worry about snakes doing what they do too much. If a baby does not want to feed during winter i just let them be and then be and don't worry. Then when they do start feeding they sometimes surpass those that have been feeding all winter in growth spurts. Maybe because i have a larger collection than some I don't sweat and worry about every little thing the snakes do. But your lump in your snake not digesting is weird becasue zonata do gorge themselves in the wild. Take a snake out of its natural conditions, put in a tank and it could be anything that caused it...dehydration, drinking to muchm flagelates ect.. But to say that it came from overfeeding is a stretch because i have not had that problem with parv, pulchra, multicinta and mutifaciata.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I don't know, maybe something else did cause it but this snake had never regurgitated before I tried this "experiment" and always seems hungry. A hopper is a pretty good size meal for her by itself but I thought she could handle three in two days. The swelling is strange but I think could have been caused by gasses from the undigested food sitting there for so long. She also pooped right before regurgitating and the poop looks fine. Not runny or anything. I do not have a large collection and spend a lot of time caring for the snakes I do have so things like drinking dirty water are out. Maybe 88 is too hot for her but this is the hot spot temp she has been at for a long time.

So the hypo-e agalma pair that you just received from me.......let's see.........been in my collection since hatching last August 2008........began with scented meals every 10-12 days and never had problems........ever. Brumated from December through March. Resumed feeding scented small pinks every 10-12 days until transitioned to completely unscented around end of May this year.........been in your collection for, what, less than two weeks?

I ain't trying to put you on blast homey, but what happened to the female after trying to gorge her too??? LMFAO.

If it walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck......well in my book it's a frickin' duck. Unless your house is plagued with unforgiving heat, flagellates, cryptosporidium, zonata disease, or the mother-lovin' beubonic plague for crissakes, it sounds like you have over-feeding issues. Keep it up!!! Because after several regurges ain't no amount of Nutribac or prayer going to help bring your snake back. Maybe, just maybe, if your z's were adults you could get away with some extra meals, but I stand by a rule of thumb or whatever finger you may choose that hatchling and young z's require more finesse and caution with their diet. My adult z's gladly accept, especially the ovulating and post-oviposition ones, multiple smaller meals and never regurge so long as I have the appropriate husbandry in-place. But younger z's, especially babies, require more patience and time to develop. And yes, there is an occasional specimen from time to time that is the exception -- which I have one stunning agalma that is growing like a weed and is always, always hungry (photo attached). Rest assured I took the chance one day last year and fed him a considerably larger meal and guess what happened.......RIGHT.

Never changed any husbandry, never strayed in temperatures, nothing. Just a larger meal that was not realistic and which took this agalma almost 30 minutes to consume. I knew in my heart that it wasn't going to go well, and my gut was right. But I'll be the fool if I will repeat that and risk a prized specimen just because I think I know what is best and assume that since adults can do it then younger specimens can too. That kind of blanket-policy mindset is concerning to me, as we don't always get the "quick-fix" in herpetoculture....that's what Burmese pythons, Cal kings, and cornsnakes are for......and I've heard time and time again that "zonata are not for everyone", but I disagree with that to some degree as if one is willing to be a bit more patient with some toughies, such as zonata or boeleni, then success will likely be greater in the end with patience and perseverence. But for the quick fixers, then maybe the aforementioned statement could be true........ "cuz they ain't cornsnakes"!

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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Against my better judgment I'm going to wade in here.

How much a snake can eat and effectively process into energy and tissue is related to temperature. The stated temperature range that was provide in this case was, "88 hot and 72 cold" which is not sufficient to support an aggressive feeding schedule.

I think the interesting thing here is that provided a limited set of conditions the snake still made the poor choice of eating more than it's environmental conditions would support. Not sure having more choice would have changed the outcome because the snake could equally make the poor choice of not utilizing the proper temperatures!

I guess my point is, and always has been that we as keepers have a responsibility for monitoring how each of our charges are doing. IMHO the much-maligned standard cookbook method is really good at helping most keepers quantify how their inputs are affecting each of their charges.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

>>How much a snake can eat and effectively process into energy and tissue is related to temperature. The stated temperature range that was provide in this case was, "88 hot and 72 cold" which is not sufficient to support an aggressive feeding schedule.

I agree with you Tony 99%...LOL
A higher hot variant and a lower cold variant would be ideal, but a humidity variant is as equally important....

I've never had the enclosures that I own now....They have subfloor hides....one dry and one damp....each are hot in the rear and room temp in the front....I've never seen such a feeding response with both temperature and humidity variants....
I don't think I'll ever keep snakes any other way now....

Just my couple pennies....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I could have made it hotter on the hot side but I have heard many times that mountain kings do not do well with high temps. The 88 hot side is high for them by many standards to begin with. However, you could be right. I will not know if that would make a difference because I simply will not do it again. But thanks for the input Tony and yes that could have been a factor in non digestion with the snake eating that much. I do provide humid hides to all of my snakes but do not have the setup mentioned in the previous post.

Agree with what you said Joe but there is conclusive evidence that montain reptiles that live near and utilize rocks have routine access to and utilize much higher temps. I think the key issue in captivity is not that they can't handle the heat but that generally we can't or don't provide it AND a means to get away from it. In the absence of being able to provide the wider temp range WE simply need to appropriately scale feeding down to less than what their maximum potential would be in an ideal environment becasue we know that they can and often will over eat relative to what their thermal environment will support. Nothing wrong or right with this, its just the reality of the situation.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

..Currituck female #2 just layed (unexpectedly) a small clutch for me.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

neat did you use that slammin male?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

VERY well said Tony.

I wish I could provide floor-melting temps to my snakes......sounds like great provisions to me. ROTFLMAO. Might as well go back to those plug-in hot rocks some folks used many years ago.

But seriously, if I had the ability to provide such WIIIIIDE temp ranges, I would need a MUCH larger enclosure to make that a reality under captive conditions. But with the avergae sweater/blanket boxes and most realistically-sized tanks it's just not do-able unless we're talking about a 75-gallon tank or small room.

This old conversation is beginning again -- sounds familiar to me. *SIGH* Just wanted to express my opinion on your words is all. Again, a well-stated reality Tony. Bravo.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Thanks Jerry. The conversation may be old but I've learned a lot from it. I'm not really capable of providing large cages either which is why I work with small species, relative the the smaller snake size the cage is bigger. The biggest thing I have gotten out of this is the advantage of back heat vice sub floor heat. Using this I've been able to provide that nice hot spot without overheating the rest of the cage. I've got the range for my coastal up to ~100 as a high to 70 as a low in a standard rack system! So far I'm not noticing any change in behavior or feeding but I'm HOPING this increased range will provide them the incentive to feed past late August when they usually go off feed. Given they so easily double and even triple clutch it sure would be nice to have some extra time to get weight back on them before they shut down for winter.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Snakes are individuals...each have their own way....So if one regurgitated that does not mean all mountain kings will regurge after being fed three hoppers in a week.....My pyros do not.

Maybe that one can't handle it....I have some thayeri that can't handle loads of food, but I give them the OPTION to eat or to turn a meal down.....
Usually they will turn down food if they do not want to eat...I've rarely had one regurge....If they swallow food it usually comes out the correct end in a few days....LOL

Good luck I hope your Zonata is fine now.....
Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I agree with John. It could be just that your individual snake could not handle it. Some are just fussy. Some eat like cows and others are thin and regulate themselves.

At least your tried the "experiment". That is the fun part of keeping snakes. I think we all dream of fat zonata. At least i do!
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www.Bluerosy.com

Damn Jerry, I was not going to mention that mistake too!!JEEEEZ. But you are right. They both happend on the same night if it makes a difference. Ha Ha. Honestly, I had been under the same mindset that you cannot overfeed a baby snake---until baby zonata. Some of my pyro's eat like crazy without any problems (they are a little older though) and I have a female agalma that takes meals very frequently, but I would not try to double feed her after this experiment. I do think z's are different and I could be wrong, won't be the first time, but I certainly will not take the risk again. I think one should often take the advice of the breeder he got the snakes from. In the babies case---Jerry Kruse--who did warn me NOT to feed them more than one pink a week-10days. I hope both the parv and baby agalma will be okay also and thanks for the replies.----walks away in shame.

I think one should often take the advice of the breeder he got the snakes from.

I will hopefully be acquiring some z's next week and will post a follow up with pictures (not that I need to replicate what i already have done) but I think this is some good fodder for discussion in future threads and maybe some current pics and future updated pictures will prove you can do it with no regurges or ill effects.

Every breeder has different successes with their animals. It is not as simple as "walks like a duck and sounds like a duck". I was breeding and feeding zonata successfully and never had these problems with what everyone calls overfeeding.

One thing I missed was what TonyD brought up was the temps. But that is to assume that your particular z regurged because of not enough heat. All I know is i was successful in raising zonata with feeding schedules that were far greater than what Jerry reccomends. Maybe it is my husbandry or his or something else. I don't even know how successful I will be here (in the more humid south) compared to when raised zonata out west in dryer conditions. I know that rosy boas did not fare well with me here in the south, even though I had lots of expereince with them out west. So there are lots of variables.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Lets us know how it goes. I for one will be very interested to see if they handle the more frequent meals well. Don't forget to post the temps too!!

I don't think frequent meals is a problem. just that my snake room is not airconditioned and gets humid. That may cause some problems.
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www.Bluerosy.com

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

addressing purely the regurge...just make sure that you don't feed the snake again for about 10 days. It's next meal should be smaller than usual. You might also consider putting a little bit of NutriBac on the next food item to help build up it's digestive enzymes.
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

Lesson learned and luckily no harm.

The thinking that snakes are snakes and all can be treated the same is antiquated. Look at other species...GTP's for example. In the 80's it was a feat to keep them alive for 3 or 4 years. Now thru trail and error we know to feed them smaller meals less frequently then other pythons. But wait, dont you just feed pythons huge meals?

Subocs are ratsnakes, but don't do as well as common rats in the same set up. Most successful breeders say the need more ventilation.

Just because most getula and lampro's share similar requirement doesnt mean all colubrids do.

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"The band is just fantastic, that is really what I think. Oh by the way, which ones pink?"

Man that girl has sure grown Doug!!!
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Randy Whittington

Joe,
I've had great growth on zonata employing small meals frequently. I learned with those guys to avoid large meals altogether. At most, a "medium" sized meal, then back off on the frequency a bit. My temps were like yours.

I always realize that my husbandry may be the reason the z's can't be stuffed as much as even pyros in the same room. Still, after 3 yrs, the z's got quite large. No complaints other that they are expensive to feed like that.
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Mark

Thanks Mark. I am going to go back to what was working in the first place for sure. The z was growing pretty well to begin with. I just was trying something different and did not take into account other variables. One more thing to think about. Nobody knows very much about zonata disease at this time but I have read and been told by other z breeders that high heat MAY contribute to its onset. That is a big chance to take because it they get it they are done and the rest of the collection will follow. For someone who does not like to argue it seems I start a lot of sh-t here doesn't it.

Your name is Joecop, so I hope your one so I don't have to beat around the bush and I can tell you like it is.

If a snake feeds on its own, it cannot be "power feeding" That term is flat stupid. No offense, but it is.

Power feeding would be feeding a snake past what IT WANTS TO EAT(on its own). As in, force feeding.

If a snake feeds on its own. It must be supported. In captivity, THAT IS YOUR JOB. In nature, they pick temps needed to accomplish certain tasks, THEY DO NOT SET A LIMIT OF 88F. Large tasks require greater temp ranges. In order to accomplish digesting large prey items or large amounts of food. They must reach the temps needed to accomplish that.

In your case, the maximum temps you use, are some random naive temp used by average keepers for average conditions.

The simple reality is, NO snake uses a 88F temp to reach 88F(IBT). In nature their behavior is to use HIGHER temps to reach a certain temps. They use temps much higher then the temps they are trying to attain internally. For instance a common basking temp for snakes is 100 to 105F to attain body temps in the 88F range.

I do apologise for being that blunt, but this power feeding thing is so so so very silly. Particularly when we commonly find mountain kings with huge prey bolus. Sir, this power feeding thing is merely a captive product of naive WAY IN THE BOX thinking. We are making the snakes fit us and we are not adjusting our conditions to meed their needs.

Truth be told, I have raised generation upon generation of mountain kings, including zonata, by feeding them when they are hungry. That includes daily for long periods. And they grow quickly and reach adulthood very quickly.

Recently I fed a wild snake(3 1/2 feet long) 4 to 6 mice for 18 strait days, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm whats the problem? there is none, as long as they can get to temps they need.

So please forgive me for calling this power feeding crap DUMB and stupid. But I simply cannot believe people still do not understand snake biology.

If you CHOOSE to only allow your snakes a high of 88F, do not blame them for barfing up large meals or muliple meals. Its your restrictions that cause that, not the snakes or powerfeeding. Simply put, you are undersupporting them. Which is fine, if thats what YOU want to do(but what about what the snake wants, why do you think it fed in the first place?). Cheers

..that whole "powerfeeding" term is a crutch.

Like you said there is no such thing as powerfeeding as long as the snake eats on its own. I have no idea who came up with that term because and it alone is /and has led to so many herpers *cough* people keeping snakes to completely mis-manage their husbandry.

Lets take that Powerfeeding term out of our vocabulary and learn to support our captive snakes.
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www.Bluerosy.com

n/p

So are you suggesting that allowing our captives to eat as much as they want is supporting them?
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>So are you suggesting that allowing our captives to eat as much as they want is supporting them?
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I think we should give them the option to feed or refuse...Not feed them once a week....That is not an option that is a schedule for us...not them.....

Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

AGREED, but to a certain extent John. Given captive conditions, wouldnt you agree that it molds captive (conditioned) responses? OF COURSE they're going to want to feed as much as possible if they're being served with frequency and without the hunt. LOL. This just seems to be Behavior 101, and I just can't agree that feeding a captive animal as much as it wants is "support", but rather (conversely) our desire to keep our charges as fat and "happy" (oh don't get me started with that one, LOL...) as possible for any number of subjective rationales (i.e.: fat snakes = a quality nourished appearance).

I have yet to find a wild snake that looks as "healthy" as a captive specimen. And given the limited space we (unfortunately) provide, these over-stuffed "oh you poor thing here's a ninth mouse" specimens don't have anywhere NEAR the coverage area they would have to "work off" some of that excess.

Rainer had mentioned a while back that fatty deposits are an inherited genetic blunder....well back in the day when I was a newbie and stuffed all my snakes whenever they wanted to eat, especially the females because I was in a rush to get the first eggs/hatchlings, yada yada.....I had noticed that more often-than-not (regardless of genus/sp./ssp.) I wound up with specimens with fatty deposits. So that means almost all my snakes back in 1994 (and from different breeders across the county, and many specimens being F1/2) were genetically faulty??? I don't know about that one.

Again, captive conditions shape and mold captive responses. No???
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

>>Again, captive conditions shape and mold captive responses. No???

You are correct...I have always stated we do not have to emulate the wild to the 'tee' but we do have to give them options....

And...I never feed a snake 9 mice at once....lol
But I have been known to 'offer' an appropriate sized mouse every day...
Sometimes even money issues cause problems with keeping snakes....
Of course we can keep a snake alive by feeding it once a week or less, but IMHO that is not what the snake wants...They are opportunistic...Give them the opportunity to eat or not to eat....
This is what I do...I do not throw 5 adult mice in a thayeri cage and hope they all get eaten....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Just wanted to show how I support most of mine...Got more of these cages in the works so I can add to my collection....

Definitely not like wild conditions, but it does give them a lot of options....I like this set up the best and would not ever do it any different....I call these snake Condos...LOL

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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John, do you feed in the dry hide drawer, in the main cage, or outside?
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Todd Hughes

>>John, do you feed in the dry hide drawer, in the main cage, or outside?
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>>Todd Hughes

I drop the frozen, thawed mice in the dry drawer on the left....
The snake eats and passes feces in there..easy clean up....All shedding is done in the upper level....Eggs are laid in the moist hide and a lot of the daytime hours are spent in there....when the timer kicks off the lights...All come out looking for food unless they are in a shed cycle.
That is when they get fed...when the lights go out....Simplest set up I have ever used.....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John...your venting..is it screening?(near the top rear).and if it is..do you have any trouble with nose rub with your kings?
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

>>John...your venting..is it screening?(near the top rear).and if it is..do you have any trouble with nose rub with your kings?
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>>Richard Evans
>>
>>no not THAT one

It is real fine screen and no nose rub problems at all.....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

So are you suggesting that allowing our captives to eat as much as they want is supporting them?

Depends on your definition of "support". Using hot rocks as you suggested in the above post, no.

For growing snakes , yes!

For breeding and eggs laying colubrids, yes! I even feed mine during winter.

For snakes kept in proper temp gradients , yes!

Feeding them fatty little fuzzies, no!

Feeding snakes that have an abnormality of depositing fat deposits, no.

I could go on, besides this thread was specifically for zonata. just like rubber boas and other species they all have their little quirks. Personally, a healthy robust zonata is a real turn on for me.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Now let me go find that chunky female pulchra in a thong photo for ya..........brb..........lol...........
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Point well taken and yes I am a retired police officer (early out from injury on job) so I have very thick skin. Ha ha. What is your take on zonata disease though. I have heard high heat can trigger a dormant case. As far as temps go I currently cannot go any higher on that rack without purchasing another herpstat. There is one more rack on the same herpstat that is enclosed and not with open sides. This rack with the same setting has a 95 degree hot spot. (4 inch and not 3 inch flexwatt as well) I keep my getula in this rack and they do great. Maybe its time to buy another herpstat. By the way, the snake in question is already looking for more food.

One more question Frank. Do you really keep a 105 degree hot spot in your enclosures?

Without question all snakes will suffer from too much heat. Or better yet, sustained warmer temps. They need cool as well as heat. That is what reptiles do. That is their advantage over mammals. They not only can shut down their metabolism, its how they live. Only expand energy when needed, that is the life of a reptile. To heat is to increase their metabolism which takes energy. Mammals, use energy at a constant rate. Reptiles win when energy is scarce.

That is why I say temperature range. They all require and live at relatively cool temps. Of course the mountanr kings can and do use lower temps then getula, but all will pick what they want if allowed.

Keeping any snake at a small temp range, without question restricts its ability to function.

In real life, its so so so so so very easy to support them with a decent temp range, even in shoe boxes or sweaterboxes. Keep the room cool, most room temps are fine(55F to 75f) and provide a small heat source in one end. With kings, its stupid easy, as they do great with regional heating(its what they are designed to do). Regional heating is heating only the part of the body that needs heat, while the rest stays in a cool base temp. A good hot spot is 100F for colubrids, slighly higher will not hurt them.

With most lizard species or torts, you must provide a wider range and a larger hot area.

A friend of mine saw my heat tapes and said, you don't even use a thermostat do you. Of course I said no, no need.

In fact one cages floor melted, hahahahahahahahaha albino thayer too. hahahahahahaha, shes about to lay in the next few days.

The problem is, folks like, no, love to generalize and average, animals do not do that. They get what they need.

Good luck with you kings

Of course these are not internal body temps(IBT) they are the heat range that snake is using. In its burrow, it goes down to 82f that day, its warmer now. Cheers

I notice Frank that those are outdoor photos with outdoor temps (Arizona). But you mentioned having a small area at a large heat gradient -- given the REALITY that MOST keepers utilize less-than-ideal tubs to house their (in this case) colubrids, which I also believe that you use as well, what product will provide this? We have heat tape, but which covers a larger area......are you suggesting we have a 3x3 swatch of heat tape under each tub?........that's alotta wires and thermostats. Then there's heat CABLE......same deal with even less flexibility in its useage. Then there's the old-fashioned hot rocks.......never seen one small enough to accomodate a small area in a tub but they DO get hot for sure, and again costly with lots of wires. Then there's spot lights that can create a small source of heat at a level you're suggesting.......but then that rules out utilizing the beloved rack system that so many have. What's left?

You see Frank, when you speak it sounds amazing sometimes. But some things just don't seem possible unless you're going to set up these conditions in a space that most people realistically do not have.........YOU may have a facility or ranch, but within this forum community I think you stand alone on that. Bravo. But given the reality of most folk's spacial allowances, what are you suggesting if it is "so so so so so stupid easy"?

I'm beating a dead horse, but maybe a photo of how you arrange this might be in order since this is what you're proposing? The field shots are great, but why not share what you are professing is so so so possible in a limited space?
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Beating a dead horse?!!!BEATING A DEAD HORSE!!!..Jesus Jerry..I love your posts..I see your humor..I read every post you make..but I guarantee..seems like everytime FR posts you start asking for pics...It ain't gonna happen..and if it does..all the better..LOL.. but I wouldn't post pics of my cages till they were pristine and mine never seem to be that way..now as a disclaimer..I'd like to say, I'm posting this after a few Guiness stouts / poured in a glass..and if ANYBODY takes offence at my husbandry..damn,that hurts..LOL..take care buddy
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

NOW we're getting somewhere, lol! CHEERS!
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Todd Hughes

Oh God, I love Guiness almost as much as a good Agave tequila. Heaven. And then a dart board and some good company. Nice Rich, you got me started. Hah! Enjoy the evening while it lasts, and Happy 4th tough guy.....
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Jerry...if we ever meet in person..first two rounds are on me.. Till then keep up the great jokes and advise..^5
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Richard Evans

no not THAT one

You got it buddy. *clink*
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Stouts, Porters and Bocks....The best...
Don't know why they even make all that diet beer....LOL
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I understand what you are saying Frank, but only partially agree because we are trying not to utilize a blanket policy ideal for all snakes......at least I hope not. Because I don't believe that all kingsnkes were created equally.

Look at the size of Indigo snakes.....they appear to be able to take down and consume a horse with their immense size. Try to sustain them on a consistent diet of large food items, such as medium rats even at full size, and they do poorly. Even with the huge 8x3x3 cages I provided with heat gradients from 100F on one end to room temps at the other, BIG water basin, cypress mulch, dry/damp hides, etc etc., the large food items weren't tolerated well. Smaller food items at greater frequency (remember, these are huge, wide-territory low-land opportunists with high metabolism that have longer activity periods) were tolerated very well with great breeding successes year after year.

I might refer to prior zonata studies from Staub whereby specimens were tagged and found again annually -- these specimens demonstrated that growth rates were not at all drastic or accelerated, but rather gradual. It's known that zonata have a limited window of activity, primarily due to temperature-induced conditions that create their need to be more fossorial to access cooler/moister conditions as well as the onset of a brumation cycle beginning in mid to late fall. So yes, it is feasible that their greater food consumption will occur over a shorter period of time and access a relatively high temperature (i.e.: portion of body outside a crevice), but also, factor in the overall availability of food as well as the challenge of obtaining food items within their labyrinth dwellings. Not an easy task, and nothing like what captivity provides. And I'm sure if I snatched up a wild zonata and brought it home, I could get them to behave just like c/b specimens do. And just like your wild coachwhips Frank, but then that's not exactly fair because you're dealing with a slightly higher functioning (intelligence factor) species.

So are we really providing mountain kings (the subject of this discussion and not Lampropeltis as a whole) with what they NEED or are we simply responding to an induced conditioned response? Kind of like going to the pet store and wiggling your fingers at the top of a tropical fish tank......what do the fishies do??? Do you really think you'd see that in the wild? Maybe in some cases. But regardless, it's a conditioned response to a basic innate need. Sometimes an animal will forego it's instinctual fight/flight response in a trade for food. In captivity, our charges don't have a choice in the matter....the container opens and more-often-than-not food is provided. Do it over and over and over, sure, there's a response. But MUST we do that and is that really being responsible to feed as much as they will accept? Fat snakes I have yet to see in the wild and don't appeal to me in captivity. But that's just me.

I'm not telling anyone what to do with their charges, but to just consider another focal point. Attaining a small 105F area in a small tub w/o overheating given the minimal products available, or, having a multitude of wires all over the place with associated cost factor......that's another discussion I guessas it does seem challenging.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Jerry, where do Drymarchon even enter into this? Down here in south Texas, ( I AM NOT AN EXPERT) I observe them using 100 degree temps, but only for very short times, right after scarfing down a bunch of leopard frogs, then retreat to their burrows for milder temps. I also see them using shaded areas, partly exposing their bodies through filtered light, this year I found one female using the totally covered in grass technique, she was therming, but unlike any other way I have seen them. I don't think we have all the answers in captivity, I can't duplicate what is out there, but I can come as close as I can. That is all we can do, some do it better than others, (NOT ME, LOL) so some of the keepers here can do what they are stating and have success, others cannot. I don't own any mountain kings (YET) but will by the end of summer. I will be down near Frank's neck of the woods in late August hopefully observing and trying to figure out what makes the pyros tick for myself! I understand hot, I understand herps using as warm a temp as can be found during "winter" down here, I have seen how they do it down here. I think that all snakes can utilize these "extreme" temps, if we can give it to them, as long as they have both ends and the middle as well.
A few years back, it snowed down in south Texas for the third time in my life (I am 47) My son and I went out on Dec. 27th and the snow was still on the ground, but the air temps were getting back up to the mid 50's. We saw an atrox cross the road, still covered in snow. It stopped on the road and we watched it bask, on top of the snow. That was a first for me and my son, probably never see that here again.
I found my first speckled king therming in a piece of vinyl flooring in Feb. of 2003, 35 degrees in filtered sunlight. Also in the flooring was a ribbon snake and a few ground skinks and anoles. My thoughts on the matter were, when this guy gets warm enough, he's gonna have a frozen dinner with several en trees, lol. I can't prove that is what he was going to do, because I snagged him. But I could see that it was a possibility. He was under the first fold, they were in subsequent layers. he was using that "crevice" to his advantage, IMO. I am not a scientist, but don't really need to be one to understand the possibilities. I think Frank has had a lot more time to work out the theories in his mind than you give him credit for.
I really like your mountain kings. I live in a place where it is too humid to keep them well, I think. If I find a way to work around that issue, I will be giving you a call, lol. Trust you me, if you want something bad enough, you will figure out how to get it. Comprende mi amigo?

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Todd Hughes

I do give Frank credit for many things, but I don't think we always get the whole story. It's like me saying "I have the cure for cancer" but then let others suffer until they figure out my discovery. WELL, if there's some kind of wand that he has in his back pocket that can improve captive conditions as we know it, why not share instead of beating around the bush and play head games? I think it's a personality issue/clash most often. We ALL have valuable perspectives and points, and it's likely we ALL have validity in what we observe and have learned within our failures, etc etc etc. But what IS the right answer? Frank seems to think he has the answer, but only offers meandering stories with hypotheses at best.......which may SPAN many decades......but if something is working better than what everyone else has, SHOW IT for crying out loud and stop playing "cloak and dagger". That's where my frustration comes in and, quite Frankly, I think our pioneering friend gets off on it. WHICH IS FINE. My collection is doing extremely well and I have no complaints other than an unseasonably warm winter.

All in all, I respect all of my herp brethren and would do anything to help, but working together equally is much more palatable for me than someone claiming deity status having others "figure it out", which, IMHO, is somewhat......what's the words..............mmmmmmm, can't think of any that are bTOS acceptable. LOL.

And thank you for the kind words on the z's. Anytime.......just ask.
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I got it figured out. Jerry this should work with a top.Hahahaha.

*hand over mouth about to burst.......*
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

If it was not so late I would have pulled the oven over to the fridge for a photo. I should never drink and post!!!!! The things I will do for humor. Good night all.

that was pretty funny. But if I COULD, I would keep pairs of snakes in an enclosure the size of a small room. Imagine how great that would be, but realistically.........
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Overherad heat will dry them out. Just use your taser.

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www.Bluerosy.com

LMAO!! NICE