Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Back in 2000 I received a pair of hatchling sibling Limpias from Buzz. Buzz did state that they had been bred by someone else working with some of his animals he had farmed out. The guy had a Polish name, I don't recall what it was though. I still can't find any of my old 35mm pics of them, but I can say that they were very classic looking examples as hatchlings. As they darkened I was rather satisfied, I prefer the dark or brown Davis forms. But they never stopped darkening. This is the female today (the male passed a couple of years ago, but he looked essentially the same):

I bred the siblings a couple of times. With the first clutch I got one good eggs, but it died full term. I'd say it looked even better than the parents as far as pattern. The second clutch was all infertile. After a couple of seasons with no clutches I decided to let someone else have a shot. Robert Pelaez took me up on the offer, with some reservation, and bred her with this WC male:

This was the results:

They look nothing like what the siblings nor their father. Nor do they look anything like siblings' offspring that died full term.

Odd begets odder.

RUSS

Cant see your pics. Can't wait to see them. Chris Drake

Was it Mileniuz Spanowicz? I got this snake from him as a hatchling. It was sired by a snake from Buzz, but it was out of a female Mileinuz collected on a bridge in Limpia Canyon while it was eating a sceloporus. Like yours, this one grew darker with age. It's the darkest Davis snake I've seen. I've (hopefully) attached a link to a picture of it as a yearling.

baby pic

BTW, I need to give Paul Freed credit for the adult picture. He snapped it last summer. She laid 6/14/09 and three eggs look good...

WOW! She is a beautiful Andrew. Chris Drake

Bingo! What year is yours?

RUSS

I didn't realize it until now, but it's a '00 model too. Here is a link to images of offspring he produced that year. I remember he had at least two clutches.
'00 Spanowicz alterna

Too funny, mine are probably in that picture.

RUSS

As everyone can see, the female and certainly two of the five offspring are not representative of traditional Davis Mt. alterna. Only the father is wild caught – I walked him down one of the cuts in August 2006 as Norm Nunley and Jon Seifer were cruising the road through Limpia Canyon. When I first saw his female I asked Russ, “are you sure she’s a Limpia alterna?” But, if you’re told that an alterna “is from Buzz Ross” and Buzz insists that it’s a Limpia Canyon alterna, what are you going to do. What the hell are you going to do EXCEPT BREED HER! LOL. When the clutch hatched and I saw that two of the five offspring were a blairs phase unlike any other Limpia I’ve ever seen, I had to play the generic card for the first time. This is why Russ put the post up; so everyone could see and everyone could judge for themselves. If anyone received a Limpia from Buzz that went black, or has ever heard of a black wc Davis Mt. alterna, or has seen a blairs phase Limpia’s that resemble the two in the clutch PLEASE post. I am still not completely convinced.

So who is Mileniusz Spanowicz?

Robert

N/P

Ok, I’ve emailed the CDRI to get current contact info for Mileniusz Spanowicz. In the meantime, I encourage everyone with an opinion to voice it, and again request that if anyone ever received a Limpia from Buzz or Spanowicz that went black (aside from Andrew), or has ever heard of a black wc Davis Mt. alterna, or has seen blairs phase Limpia’s that resemble the two in the clutch pic PLEASE post. Thanks.

Robert

Looks like an Xmas animal. I wonder if anyone on kingsnake has ever collected or photographed an animal that looks like that from Davis. I know they get very dark brown in the Musquiz. But black...? I hope it all works out.

Best Wishes,

StevenX

My old genetic professor had a saying "Somewhere another bull got across the fence" I would suspect that someone placed a christmas with the davis by accident. Maybe not, but looks very suspicious.

I realize it looks unusual now, but as a hatchling it looked typical to me. A male I got from Mileniusz was light in color. My wife and I met him last summer in Ft. Davis while he was working at CDRI. I told him about the snake and said that one of his holdbacks turned out like that. That snake is still alive in a collection in Alpine I believe. Anyway, I've never bred this snake before and plan to keep any offspring that I get. If I've learned anything from breeding western alterna, it's that you never know what you may get.

I know we all do our best to validate locality.

have a good 4th...!

stevenx

The snake depicted in the photo may be the original dad. He was collected by the same person down by Elephant Mtn while he was living in Alpine and the snake certainly exhibits the prominant characteristics seen in the second generation that are in question. Maybe something got mixed up regarding the w/c breeding over time. It has been known to happen and cause big excitement as a result. This is just a suggestion to take a look at and not to cast stones at anyone for any reason.

Yeah, you can certainly see a resemblance. Bob, are you telling us that Mileniusz Spanowicz collected this male specimen? Do you know when? You mentioned it was collected near Elephant Mt. Are you referring to the WMA?

Robert

If I recall correctly, Mileniusz and his wife found that snake on Hwy 118 down near Elephant Mtn, not the WMA, as a matter of accident rather than purpose. It may have been in the early 2000's. I have a print of the same photo shown in the Alterna Gallery. At the time the locality was generally given as 'Xmas Mtns.', as if some other point along that roadway was somehow secret and special. Seems silly to me now, because snakes are simply where you find them, expected or not.

Well, it looks like Mileniusz Spanowicz holds the key to solving this mystery, and like I mentioned to Jason he is cited many places on the web as the photographer, guide, herpetologist, or lecturer for such and such (I think it's the same guy), but I can't find a business contact number to solicit him for any of his many skills. Hopefully, something will turn up.

Robert

He might be living in Canada now. I think his wife was a Canadian, but I could be off with that. Someone in Alpine who knows him may know how to contact him. In any case, good luck with your quest.

Yes, but black forms have popped up at a number of locales, so I wouldn't consider that a lead.

RUSS

not Elephant Mt, but further south, much closer to the actual xmas stretch. There is a Mountain in the locality name, but not Elephant.
-----
Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

>>As everyone can see, the female and certainly two of the five offspring are not representative of traditional Davis Mt. alterna. Only the father is wild caught – I walked him down one of the cuts in August 2006 as Norm Nunley and Jon Seifer were cruising the road through Limpia Canyon. When I first saw his female I asked Russ, “are you sure she’s a Limpia alterna?” But, if you’re told that an alterna “is from Buzz Ross” and Buzz insists that it’s a Limpia Canyon alterna, what are you going to do. What the hell are you going to do EXCEPT BREED HER! LOL. When the clutch hatched and I saw that two of the five offspring were a blairs phase unlike any other Limpia I’ve ever seen, I had to play the generic card for the first time. This is why Russ put the post up; so everyone could see and everyone could judge for themselves. If anyone received a Limpia from Buzz that went black, or has ever heard of a black wc Davis Mt. alterna, or has seen a blairs phase Limpia’s that resemble the two in the clutch PLEASE post. I am still not completely convinced.
>>
>>So who is Mileniusz Spanowicz?
>>
>>Robert
>>

I actually saw the alterna Mileniuz Spanowicz collected from the FT. Davis area the night after he picked it up. It was very black. Mileniuz is/was a polish immigrant living in Alpine. He was an artist and snake nut. He concentrated on Ft. Davis alterna.
-----
HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

If you google Mileniusz Spanowicz, he's all over the web; photographer, herpetologist and naturalist. Is this the same guy?

Do you remember when he collected the black Limpia - it was from Limpia Canyon, right? And, back in the old days, everyone was clicking off pictures of everyone else's wc alterna. Do you think a picture of this black wc alterna exists with someone other than Spanowicz? If so, who do you think might have a photo of it?

Robert

I was there when the male was caught.I also have pics if I can dig them out I'll post them.

Please do. THANKS!!!

Robert

Jason

Thanks for chiming in, that's a very significant (and positive) statement. Do you remember what year it was?

RUSS

>>Jason
>>
>>Thanks for chiming in, that's a very significant (and positive) statement. Do you remember what year it was?
>>
>>RUSS
Russ just a guess, I think it was probably around 98' or 99' He was sure proud of the fact he found one munching on a lizard in the middle of the road.
-----
HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

>>>>Jason
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for chiming in, that's a very significant (and positive) statement. Do you remember what year it was?
>>>>
>>>>RUSS
>>Russ just a guess, I think it was probably around 98' or 99' He was sure proud of the fact he found one munching on a lizard in the middle of the road.
>>-----
>>HCU
>>Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

Just found the photo I took of the offspring in 2000. So the adult could have very well been in 1999.
-----
HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

Buzz had a black wild caught that was from limpia canyon. It had small, but nice, red spots. I have a pic but will have to scan it. It might take me a while to get that done as I will be out of pocket for a while. BTW, I too thought that the animals in question looked like Xmas when I first saw them. I am glad that you are doing your best not to misrepresent these animals. I hope that they turn out to be pure Limpias because they sure are cool looking.

Bryan Box

Thanks Brian, we'd really appreciate it.

RUSS

Hey Bryan, thanks for the info. I think there are two implausabilities that we need to explain. One is the color of the female parent, and the other is the high percentage of blairs morphs in the clutch, especially the one that looks very clean. My perspective for hatching out Davis Mountain alterna is limited to the clutch in question, though she laid five more eggs this year. So far, the posts have been about the uncommon black color. Take another look at the blairs morphs within that clutch. Isn't the high expression of that particular morphology in a Limpia Canyon clutch (40%) a reason for concern as well?

Robert

robert, didn't we see some davis mt.blairs phase like that at the Tucson show last year? I believe they were from "Amazing Grays".

Weren't those the ones selling for $30 each? YOU KNOW I can't say anything bad about another vendor...BUT YOU CAN! LOL.

Robert

Robert,

I don't know if it should send up a red flag, especially looking at the parents. The female had a large amount of red and the father had wide black bands with a little orange in every band. The band count of the male is a bit low for Davis as well. Although his look is not as surprising as the female's, it is not your "typical" Limpia. The genes are there for Blairs or alterna morphs in any population (I would image, I have not seen enough examples from a lot of the far western populations) and through selective breeding, it is easy to get these individuals. Just take for example the Langtry area alterna morphs. They are rarely found, but when they are and are breed, a large portion of the clutch is alterna morphs. Evidently, these anomalies rarely make it to adulthood in the wild, yet are the first ones someone holds back. Nobody wants ugly snakes, but I prefer animals that represent what you might find in the wild. In my opinion, that is the whole point of locality breeding. That being said, I think that those babies you produced are really neat and I hope that you can prove that they are indeed pure Limpias. I really like the variety that your pairing was able to produce. Keep us up to date on what you find.

Bryan Box

>>Was it Mileniuz Spanowicz?

Speaking of Mileniuz Spanowicz, has anyone heard from him? Last I heard, they were headed to Moscow to work at the US Embassy there.
-----
HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

I have not read all of this particular post but can tell you this is a true Limpia via Buzz and Milenuez Spanowic,and can also tell you that Some of the most impressive Halloween type snakes other than the Tom Boyden line come from Limpia Canyon and one other Davis local.The story of the Alterna eating a sceloporous on the bridge is also true.I showed Milenuez how to hunt Alterna when he first arrived here and he took particular intrest in Davis animals and found several.He is also an excellent keeper and a very trustworthy person.I hope you will enjoy your future offspring from this blood line.There are other siblings of this parentage and produce equally incredible animals.

So, I make the check payable to Norm Nunley...LOL. Really Norm, thanks. Russ and I (and I'm sure Andrew too) appreciate your insights into this matter. Do you think that there are photos of the original Ross/Spanowicz parent stock that actually produced the clutches for Russ's siblings and Andrew's female? Obviously, we would like copies for our records.

Robert

Thanks for the insight Norman! I hve a detailed letters and pictures of the offspring from Mileniusz. The correspondence is in storage at my parents home across town, but I'm going to dig it up to shed some light on this. I also got a pair of locality pyros from him the same year. We spoke in detail over the phone back then and I trust him. You could tell he took pride in the animals, and I don't believe he would make a careless mistake pairing them up.

Yep, dinner is definitely on me this summer Norm. Thanks for the input. Honestly, as much as I questioned the color all these years, I had to have faith in Buzz. I know a lot of people have had differences with him over the years, but he has never done or said anything in my presence to lead me to believe that he ever misrepresents animals. It was a friendly trade among friends. He may have got the better end, but that would depend on your perspective.

RUSS