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Here's a picture Mileniusz Spanowicz mailed me in '00 of the snake I purchased that is now black/orange. According to the note that came with it, this snake is a sibling to an axanthic specimen. I can only assume the "axanthic" is the one Mike posted below. He goes on to say that it is F1 from wild caught Limpia Canyon snakes "the road-cut part on Hwy 17, 10 miles or so North of Ft. Davis.

While Norm’s insights about this bloodline are informative and persuasive, there is one person that sits atop the Alterna Mt. Olympus that has not been swayed by any of the pro arguments below, and perhaps that is a good thing (?) Perhaps the bar needs to be set relatively high for a "Recommended Breeder" (?) Unfortunately, that person atop Alterna Mt. Olympus is just chucking lightning bolts rather than being helpful-lol.

Anyway, here’s what I’ve been able to put together so far. Russ got a pair of siblings from Buzz Ross in 2000. Russ was told that Spanowicz actually bred these. During the same year, Andrew Godambe acquired one of Spanowicz’s offspring from quite possibly the same clutch since Andrew’s female and Russ’s male and female all shared the same characteristics. According to Andrew, Spanowicz found the female on the bridge eating a sceloporus, and according to Jason Penny that female was actually BLACK. Also, according to Andrew, the sire of the clutch came from Buzz, so it would be quite natural to split the clutch, Spanowicz getting his share (for Andrew’s origin) and Buzz getting his share (for Russ’s origin). Did it happpen this way? I don't know, but it sounds reasonable.

As a result, it looks to me like the primary focus should be on documenting the sire. Obviously, documentation for both parents would be helpful and probably necessary (and I am still trying and hunt down Spanowicz), but at least there is some contemporaneous and corroborative information regarding the female. Again, any ideas, comments or additional information are welcomed and would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Robert

how many Limpias he has seen that look like those three in the photo - if he has seen any all then ask him to post the photos right here along with the information about who caught them and when.

Then you can do a little math. Over 100 years of alterna collecting have resulted in exactly NONE from Limpia Canyon that look like that (wild caught) yet we have THREE in that one clutch. That my friend does not add up.

Still in the end you're making too much of it. I told you to market the snakes and tell your story - sees who buys them. That will be plenty good for most folks, but not me.

You guys remind me of the guy who can't tell the difference between Hueco Mts and Black Gap.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

It worked! I knew Mount Olympus would draw you out. Joe, the authenticity of this lineage has to satisfy your Recommended Breeder standard, otherwise I will not consider it 100% authentic; the hell with anybody else. Now that you've been outed-lol, perhaps everyone can get an open and frank discussion going.

Robert

Joe,
Is it just the blairi looking babies in the Russ/Robert clutch that has you concerned or the fact that the f1 offspring turned black? What are your thoughts on the scanned picture I posted from 2000? Apart from the fact that it turned black, do you see Limpia characteristics? It may not be typical, but I've never seen an Xmas snake that started out that dark. Some Xmas snakes may mature to be black with neon orange, but they don't look anything like that as neonates - at least none of the ones I've seen or bred.

I've seen plenty of really dark Davis snakes - the black is less of a concern but it's not representative of Davis black either. Nor is it the same black as the photos Mike or Brian posted. But that ain't all. I told Robert that clutch had xmas in it months ago - now he is just beating a dead horse.

The way to settle this is not with posts on this forum. He needs to show grand parent and clutch photos along with siblings of the animals in question but he hit a dead end when he got to Buzz and then took a wrong turn and ended up here.

I'm just not going to put my stamp of approval on those snakes. They aren't pure Limpia and if you think they are you don't have any business breeding locality alterna.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Dude, the fun seems to be disappearing from your posts. This forum was the perfect place. Did you tell me that Andrew Godambe had a similar looking female? No, we learned that on this forum. Did you tell me who may have bred Russ' siblings? No, we learned that on this forum. Did you tell me that there were others that may be in this same predicament? No, we learned that on this forum. Did you tell Russ or myself what we what would need to do to establish authenticity? No, we just learned that now on this forum. All you told me is something I already knew, because when the first two blairs came out of their eggs I told Russ we were in big trouble. Joe, this is an information forum and we are gathering facts and opinions, nothing more...nothing less. Capiche?

They are xmas x Limpia, Capiche?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Oh well, tell me something I didn't already suspect-lol. Look, I couldn't let the lineage appear to be pure after Norm's post, KNOWING that you had such ROBUST reservations-privately. I felt you needed to post your strong feelings about this clutch and you have. Let's see if it leads to more information or pictures surfacing...good or bad.

Robert

First it was Mileniusz who screwed up and mixed in Xmas blood from a snake he collected, now it's the Buzzard. I really am confused! This will probably put the majority of captive bred Limpia alterna into question. Remember when part of the fun of breeding alterna was the variation in offspring? I like to think we haven't seen all the possibilities yet...

This was the first sign of trouble for me..... these are not pure Limpia alterna.

What is it with you guys? I'm going to say it again, if you can't tell the difference between Limpia and xmas then you don't need to be breeding locality alterna. There's xmas in those babies.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

in the alterna page photo gallery and in collectors albums. I hatched out a totally speckled Xmas alterna from pure Hodgson stock once. I've seen people claim on this forum that Xmas snakes don't come with speckles at all. I haven't seen it all. When I have, I'll quit breeding locality alterna...

I got that you don't see any problem with those babies, but since you've got some related stock I see why you'd say that.

I haven't seen it all either, but I've seen idiots with more experience than you mix up Hueco and Black Gap and if not for me calling him out you might have a collection of those too.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Actually Joe, I don't know that I have related stock. Do you know that for a fact? I spoke to Buzz earlier - he says the '00 Mileniusz offspring are legit and that he'll take a look at the forum. Maybe he can add something to the discussion.

>>Do you know that for a fact?

No I do not. All my comments relate to the one clutch photo. There was nothing alarming to me in the photo you posted, that I could see.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Joe, tell us what you really think. I think you are dead on the money. Anyone would be hard pressed to find a more typical Xmas critter than the one in the photo.

I would also think that looking at the clutch picture, there is definately a milkman in the picture. Trouble is after 8 - 9 years the facts will be impossible to prove. At this point I would say, "let the buyer beware". Good Call.

ECT

I told Robert why I wanted to stay out of it, but he insisted on dragging me into it and now I'm the bad guy. Oh well
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Let me point out the not-so-obvious. I do not really have a dog in this fight, except to get at the truth. You will not find a post that I have put up that seeks anything but information or opinions or both. I paired up my wc Limpia male that same year with a cb female from Dan Vermilya (Buzz Ross stock). You reviewed pictures of Dan’s parent stock and blessed them as true Limpia alterna, although if she throws a couple of light phase blairs YOU WILL BE HEARING FROM ME. This ‘xmas x Limpia’ looking clutch, which is the subject of the current controversy, means very little to me personally. However, it is possible, maybe even probable, that this lineage has found its way into many more collections and breeding programs. If it is not pure, then I think all of us have the responsibility to sound the alarm to stop it from infecting more generations. This is yet another reason why I had Russ put the post up on this forum. Call it a public alterna announcement - lol.

Robert

a lot of times an animal will look just fine and you don't realize something is wrong until it breeds and babies hatch. Isn't that what happened here? So don't come back to me just because I said something looks OK and then threw obvious mutts LOL instead go the person you got it from and find out what happened, but don't be surprised if they only want to cover their own ass.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Eric,
Thanks for using the "milkman" referance and not the "mailman" LOL. I too felt those couldn't be pure Limpias when I saw the group photo. Then when I heard the name of the old guy from Ft. Davis was involved the red flags went straight up to the top of the flagpole!! BA

Judging from your comments we both know the same person fairly well. I am not sure if I know who you are. If you do not intend to stay incognito, let me know who you are. Not recognizing the initials. I do know someone with the BA initials but I am fairly certian he is not you.

At any rate, a lot of time has been spent on this issue. Sounds to me like someone trying to legitimize animals so that the term locality could be applied. They mentioned it was not because of monitary value. If not that, then what? Otherwise, one would just value them for what they look like. Some mutts are real knock outs. But, Joe is right. Do not call it a thoroughbred if it is not.

ECT

you should post a better photo of that snake though.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

All three alterna were acquired in 2000, and were produced by the same breeder, Spanowicz. Andrew got his female directly from Spanowicz. Russ got his two siblings from Ross who told him they were produced by Spanowicz. All three snakes developed into black and orange/red alterna and look virtually identical. These are mighty tall coincidences if the snakes did not happen to come from the same clutch.

BTW, I sure hope that Buzz Ross can contribute to this discussion and help set some facts straight.

Robert

Andrew,

I've had private conversations with Robert and Russ, regarding these snakes. I don't pretend to be an expert on these locales, but my first impression when the photos of mother and offspring were posted, was "Wow, there's Xmas in those." Based on comments by Robert, and comments on the forum, both Buzz and Spano were working with both locales at the time.

I don't think the question is whether the dark mother caught by Spano (and apparently used in the breeding of your clutch) is authentic, but who exactly was the father?
I can imagine a scenario where an Xmas male is accidentally coupled with the Spano Limpia. Because the female is so dark, it could be mistaken for an Xmas animal at the time of the breeding.

"Apart from the fact that it turned black, do you see Limpia characteristics? It may not be typical, but I've never seen an Xmas snake that started out that dark. Some Xmas snakes may mature to be black with neon orange, but they don't look anything like that as neonates..." Yes, you can see the LImpia characteristics, unfortunately the Xmas characteristics are also there. You are referencing the results of an Xmas pairing. Now, if you take a Limpia female, and an Xmas male...

Of course, all of this is speculation. I will stop short of saying there is no way these can be Limpia animals, but I will say that if this isn't a lesson for anyone who is breeding/buying locality animals, I don't know what is.

If you are breeding locality animals, photograph the pair, and the actual coupling, if possible. Photograph the offspring. Document who received the offspring. If you intend to use animals you did not collect, verify detailed collection information from the original collector. If you can't do this, do not use the animal.

If you are purchasing a cb locality animal, demand this info, all the way back to wc!

Imagine the confusion you could avoid, lol!

John

"I don't think the question is whether the dark mother caught by Spano (and apparently used in the breeding of your clutch) is authentic, but who exactly was the father?
I can imagine a scenario where an Xmas male is accidentally coupled with the Spano Limpia. Because the female is so dark, it could be mistaken for an Xmas animal at the time of the breeding."

Mileniusz is not retarded. If he collected a dark female in Limpia Canyon, he would not forget and breed it to a snake he collected in the Christmas Mountains just because both were dark. We're talking about a collector who lived out there - not someone buying animals off the net and trying to match up locales. I don't know that Mileniusz was ever actually working with Xmas snakes. Yes, he collected one on a co. road (I have '08 offspring sired by that snake too, from another breeder), but I don't think he ever produced an Xmas clutch. Buzz was not breeding any alterna at the time.

I never claimed he was mentally insufficient, but accidents happen, and the fact that this conversation is taking place, is evidence that his reputation as a breeder is in question. Had he, and the others involved with this line, done due diligence in documenting the history of these animals, like I outlined in the earlier post, none of this would be taking place. Personally, I hope that he can be reached, and that he has all the records that will validate these animals. My favorite thing about alterna, is that you don't know exactly what you're going to get, whether while collecting, or from pairings.
I will repeat - I am not saying there is no way that your animal, or the others, are not authentic. There are strange things that can happen in locality pairings, but if anyone were to produce a BSR, for example, that looked like a Lajitas, they better have all the necessary records to dispel the ensuing claims of fraud. Personal bias and skepticism can still exist, even if you take every precaution, but opinion should not outweigh the data.
The lack of detailed records is the problem, and was the point of my post.

John

"I never claimed he was mentally insufficient, but accidents happen, and the fact that this conversation is taking place, is evidence that his reputation as a breeder is in question. Had he, and the others involved with this line, done due diligence in documenting the history of these animals, like I outlined in the earlier post, none of this would be taking place. Personally, I hope that he can be reached, and that he has all the records that will validate these animals. My favorite thing about alterna, is that you don't know exactly what you're going to get, whether while collecting, or from pairings.
I will repeat - I am not saying there is no way that your animal, or the others, are not authentic. There are strange things that can happen in locality pairings, but if anyone were to produce a BSR, for example, that looked like a Lajitas, they better have all the necessary records to dispel the ensuing claims of fraud. Personal bias and skepticism can still exist, even if you take every precaution, but opinion should not outweigh the data.
The lack of detailed records is the problem, and was the point of my post. "

John

I don't know who's reputation has been brought into question - Mileniusz or Buzz? I agree with you, in a perfect world we would have a photo pedigree for each and every snake (like Dan Johnson had), but how many people can actually provide that after a few generations in captivity? I have tons of pictures saved on floppy disks - taken with a Sony Mavica that I need to go through. You can be sure that I will document everything I possibly can from now on! In the end it comes down to trust. It's not as if selling locality alterna is a marketing ploy to get rich anymore

Andrew

I believe I have a current cell phone number for Mileniusz. I have been following this thread and I did some research and mad some calls and found a Cell number that was current as of January of this year. If you would like to e-mail me I will provide the info for you. Take care!

VK

Please email it to me, rapelaez@yahoo.com. Thanks.

Robert

I replied to your e-mail Scott, as well as the one from a few weeks ago, which tells me you are not getting my e-mails. Is this the case?

Forky
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Hi Joe, I got your e-mail tonight and replied to it. Let me know if you got my reply.

Scott

The recording said, I'm sorry but the person you called has a voice mail box that has not been set up yet...goodbye

Thanks for your effort Scott...

Robert

>>While Norm’s insights about this bloodline are informative and persuasive, there is one person that sits atop the Alterna Mt. Olympus that has not been swayed by any of the pro arguments below, and perhaps that is a good thing (?) Perhaps the bar needs to be set relatively high for a "Recommended Breeder" (?) Unfortunately, that person atop Alterna Mt. Olympus is just chucking lightning bolts rather than being helpful-lol.
>>
>>Anyway, here’s what I’ve been able to put together so far. Russ got a pair of siblings from Buzz Ross in 2000. Russ was told that Spanowicz actually bred these. During the same year, Andrew Godambe acquired one of Spanowicz’s offspring from quite possibly the same clutch since Andrew’s female and Russ’s male and female all shared the same characteristics. According to Andrew, Spanowicz found the female on the bridge eating a sceloporus, and according to Jason Penny that female was actually BLACK. Also, according to Andrew, the sire of the clutch came from Buzz, so it would be quite natural to split the clutch, Spanowicz getting his share (for Andrew’s origin) and Buzz getting his share (for Russ’s origin). Did it happpen this way? I don't know, but it sounds reasonable.
>>
>>As a result, it looks to me like the primary focus should be on documenting the sire. Obviously, documentation for both parents would be helpful and probably necessary (and I am still trying and hunt down Spanowicz), but at least there is some contemporaneous and corroborative information regarding the female. Again, any ideas, comments or additional information are welcomed and would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
>>
>>Robert
Maybe I should have been clearer. It was very black BUT it did have some orange. It looked more speckled with the majority of it being black.
This is what I know happened: Spanowicz gave his WC to Buzz along with a few other Ft. Davis alterna. a couple of years later, a certain un-named military guy found some nice lepidus in the Huecos and traded Buzz for SOME alterna. Where they the same ones from Spanowicz? Dunno. Did some mutt breeding go on at Buzz's place? thats a question for you guys to answer. The photo below is some of the limpia offspring that Spanowicz had at his house. I don't know if these came from the same stock or not but these are definitely F1 limpia stock according to him. Just adding to the mystery....

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HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

Compare my theory from the following comments:

"Buzz did state that they had been bred by someone else working with some of his animals he had farmed out" >RUSS

"Was it Mileniuz Spanowicz? I got this snake from him as a hatchling. It was sired by a snake from Buzz, but it was out of a female Mileinuz collected on a bridge in Limpia Canyon while it was eating a sceloporus" >ANDREW

"actually saw the alterna Mileniuz Spanowicz collected from the FT. Davis area the night after he picked it up. It was very black" >JASON

to your post above:
This is what I know happened: Spanowicz gave his WC to Buzz along with a few other Ft. Davis alterna. a couple of years later, a certain un-named military guy found some nice lepidus in the Huecos and traded Buzz for SOME alterna. Where they the same ones from Spanowicz?

And let's try to build some consensus about what actually happened. Does Buzz Ross read this forum?

Robert

>>Compare my theory from the following comments:
>>
>>"Buzz did state that they had been bred by someone else working with some of his animals he had farmed out" >RUSS
>>
>>"Was it Mileniuz Spanowicz? I got this snake from him as a hatchling. It was sired by a snake from Buzz, but it was out of a female Mileinuz collected on a bridge in Limpia Canyon while it was eating a sceloporus" >ANDREW
>>
>>"actually saw the alterna Mileniuz Spanowicz collected from the FT. Davis area the night after he picked it up. It was very black" >JASON
>>
>>to your post above:
>>This is what I know happened: Spanowicz gave his WC to Buzz along with a few other Ft. Davis alterna. a couple of years later, a certain un-named military guy found some nice lepidus in the Huecos and traded Buzz for SOME alterna. Where they the same ones from Spanowicz?
>>
>>And let's try to build some consensus about what actually happened. Does Buzz Ross read this forum?
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>
>>

1.) Ask Russ what Buzz told him when he picked up the snakes.
OR
2.) make contact with Spanowicz and ask him. Because the ONLY thing I can tell you is that I went by his house once back in 99 or so and the first thing he told me was, "hey come check out what I found in Limpia last night" He showed me the VERY dark alterna and said he found it in the middle of a bridge (I think half in a crack) munching on a lizard. I took the above photo in 2000 and I couldn't tell you much more than what I did on those, sorry.

Good luck in your quest...I see a long confusing road ahead.
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HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

Jason, I know it was some time ago, but was the ground color black like Russ's and Andrew's females, or was it more a dark grey like in some of the pics put up recently?

Robert

>>Jason, I know it was some time ago, but was the ground color black like Russ's and Andrew's females, or was it more a dark grey like in some of the pics put up recently?
>>
>>Robert

I'd be lying if I told you for sure sir so I will refrain
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HCU
Snakes of Hudspeth County, Texas

That’s pretty much the jest of the story. I was TDY to Bliss for four weeks. So being the field herper I am I took full advantage of the opportunity and was out at the Huecos every night possible. I was hell bent on duplicating my results from 1981 (a whole nother story). I didn’t find any alterna, but I did collect a pair of lepidus as incidentals (the pics are on JP’s site). I don’t keep nor deal in hots, but I knew the male was something special and been told that it was a desirable locale. On one of the weekends while there I made a run to Ft Davis to try my luck. Of course as usual it either rained or we talked too much, so not a lot of herping took place. But while there I gave the lepidus to Buzz, more as a gift than anything else. But Buzz did ask if I’d like a pair of alterna for them, and of course I took him up on the offer. Most of his collection had been farmed out by that time, but he said he would have some animals from those farmed deals. I said I’d take anything from the west (Davis, Xmas, RR, ect). To this he stated he most likely would have some Davis locale animals available by fall. That fall he sent me a pair of very nice looking Limpias that he stated had been bred by Spanowicz.

So was there any reason to misrepresent the animals? Not at all, a Christmas locale would have been just fine. It was not a trade for Davis animals, so none were expected. Buzz gave me Davis animals because he knew I’d prefer them and probably out of pity. Plus if I had a pair maybe I wouldn’t be so antsy about setting around yakking, his true favorite hobby, instead of shining that damn big cut up on the hill!! Accidental pairing? Come on. You can work with animals on a 6-pack and not make that mistake. Even Ric commented that he had never seen really black WC Limpia, but if Buzz said it was a Limpia then that was that, it was a Limpia.

If you took the female’s bands and cleaned the interspace like that of Robert’s male, you’d pretty much get a blairs. Hey, imagine that, we got a blairs. I did breed her twice to her sibling. The first time I got one good egg that died full term. The baby though had narrow banding and strong alternates, with some business going on. Nothing blair-like at all. The second clutch was a dud. RP’s the man!

Now I would like to get a pic of the WC black too, just as documentation more than anything. But otherwise with the comments by those on here who saw the WC black Limpia or knew of it firsthand (and they are creditable), is this more of an attack on someone’s credibility rather than the burden of proof some imply?

The picture of the clutch of babies sort of says it all for me. I have never seen a "blairs" phase from the Davis Mountains. Has anyone else? All the evidence you appear to be providing is at best hearsay. As a matter of fact the two "blairs" babies in the picture might not even be from the same clutch. If a person were wanting to legitimize a mutt, it would not be a hard thing to do to put them with a couple of more "real" limpias, snap a picture and now you have all "limpias". Are we not going to use a little common sense about this? I believe, whether done purposefully or accidentally, there is a mix up going on here. No way would I consider buying a "blairs" phase alterna as a limpia alterna. That is my bottom line.

Eric has cut to the essential least common denominator in his post here. Rather than speculate on the 'what ifs' and random 'possibilities' of who did what, where, when and why, look at the body of evidence that supports Eric's point. There are numerous photo documented and museum specimens from Jeff Davis County, Texas. Regardless of background coloration, they share a general tendency toward a particular set of dorsal pattern characteristics that consists of broken markings that are not exhibited in the hatchling snakes in question. Why is that? Because the general phenotype seen in Davis Mountains alterna is successful and individuals with those charcteristics are more likely to survive and reproduce new generations, which enables the species to persist within a particular set of habitat parameters and limiting factors. So, without calling names, throwing rocks at each other, or assigning some sort of hidden agendas to anyone involved, simply use your knowledge, experience and powers of observation. Do these snakes represent what you have seen from the wild population? Do they exemplify the evolutionary trends in cryptic coloration and markings typically seen in the population? Would natural selection and random variation within the natural genetic pool reasonably account for what is in evidence in the captive young in question? The answers to those questions are most likely no, they don't. Joe certainly did that and came to a logical conclusion. At best, the hatchlings are atypical of the geographic location based upon a large body of existing evidence from what is observable in the wild and therefore may be considered a random genetic anomaly, at worst they of mixed heritage for whatever reasons that exist due to human intervention in natural processes, regardless of intent. I don't see what the big deal is all about. Continuing to argue until one gets the desired answer in no way approaches the truth. In the absence of a tractable explanation, consider that they would make great bass bait if nothing else...or give them away to people who just want a pretty pet alterna and don't care about all the rest of this. Getting all wrapped around the axle over a clutch of captive hatched snakes is a useless expense intellectual energy. Eeesh!

"Getting all wrapped around the axle over a clutch of captive hatched snakes is a useless expense (of) intellectual energy."

Unless of course it involves the complete fabrication of stories outlining how you "collected" some of the captive-hatched clutchmates on the same rock cut on back-to-back nights and then use the misrepresentation to bolster ego or garner a higher exchange value in a trade with unknowing fellow herpers... right?

If you don't want to answer that question maybe you can regale us with stories of east Sanderson Micrurus or west Sanderson bairdi?

Now that was a good zinger! Congrats Damon. BA

not the type to "zing" but some people work really, really hard to earn themselves the status to deserve it. Mythomaniacs don't get good over night... it takes years of hard work and dedication. Anyone willing to put in so much time toward any goal should be recognized. I'm just doing my part.

Your post gave me that twisting feeling in the pit of my stomach. It just so happens that I have a beautiful pair of Ninemile N. Sanderson dark blairs purportedly wildcaught on back to back nights by Mr. Haase. Should I be worried that my animals have been misrepresented?

Also, please check back on the other thread about handheld lights when you have time. I posted a question about the light you recommended re: battery life.

Here's a ninemile lep

The weaving of the tangled web continues...

I'm really sorry to have to be the one to break the news to you, but you've apparently been privy to the dreamweaving skills of our favorite Federal government biologist. The good news is that the locality information has typically been somewhat accurate, but Bob has not collected a pair on back-to-back nights in Sanderson EVER. Bob has only collected a handful of snakes around Sanderson and I'll guarantee you he'd never sell any of them. He has now on more than one occassion raised animals that were given to him and then passed them off as WC snakes during a deal. The first time I was made aware of it, it happened with a pair of hatchlings I'd given to him. The hatchlings were produced by a pair I caught north of Sanderson in 1993. He raised and then traded the snakes representing them as a pair he'd collected on "back-to-back" nights in the mid nineties. The animals changed hands a few times but the final owner posted pictures and for some reason I recognized them. I went back through my clutch pictures and found the two animals in question. I let the new owner know... we followed the chain of deals and finally discovered they (along with the intricate mythomaniacal story) came from Bob.

Post pictures of your 9-milers. Maybe someone here hatched them. There is a chance that the locality info is good, but chances are also good that if the locality info is good, you won't be making F1s, but F2s.

I just returned to see all of this on the forum. The time has come to own up and come clean. Damon, you are correct in stating that I have passed f1 locality snakes as being wild collected by me, some of which came from you (so you know the locality is correct) and others from Dave Doherty (the nine mile snakes that Dave Long is questioning are Doherty w/c female x Gerry Salmon w/c male, which I believed to be correct). There have been 6 individuals in total that fall into the category in question. I accept full responsibility for and the consequences of what I have done and am not going to make excuses. I have been cowardly in attempting to hide from confronting my responsibility as well, or worse, pass it off in ways that were extremely disrespectful and hurtful to others who had done me no harm like you, Damon. For all that, I am truly sorry and regretful.

I will say that all of these animals, to the best of my knowledge, are f1 individuals propagated from genuine collected specimens. They are what they are as I believed from thei respective sources, or I would not have had them in the first place. Obviously, I have had problems with telling stories to legitimize these snakes as I did, but no one obtained any that are not fully from the given location. I have contacted Steven and Lance and offered reimbursement to them. I will do the same with Dave. The other snakes that Dave got from me are what they are as well. The Hueco snakes were f1 from Dan Johnson, which he already knew and Dan recorded them on his web page. I spent a lot of money on these animals, yet became disillusioned with the fact that they were not wild collected.

I became obsessed with feelings of being not as good as others. I really went somewhat insane for a 2-3 year period, but have since come back to reality with some necessary medical attention and medication. I deeply regret my previous actions and apologize to anyone who has been affected. If anyone has any questions they are welcome to contact me personally. I will tell the absolute truth and relate all facts known to me as best as I can. Again, I'm truly sorry that I chose to go down the road I did and for the harm I caused to others in the process. It has been some time coming, but it is best to own my transgressions, take the consequences and get on with life. Needless to say, I have nothing left in this hobby since I have completely destroyed my crdibility and name, although my interest will remain in the species, but no longer the collection of it.

So there you have it, there is no need to go on. I am very sorry, regretful, and filled with remorse, but I cannot go back and start over no matter how much I wish that I could. I have made this mess for myself and will live with the outcome. At least now I have told you the truth, belated as it may be. Again, I apologize to everyone involved who was in any way affected by my lack of personal integrity and honesty.

Don't be too hard on yourself Bob. Takes alot of guts and courage to admit to the world what transpired. They're still the correct locality just a generation removed. Its not even close to what some other people have done and never admitted too. I truly admire your admission and hope everyone else does too. Best of luck to you and your alterna hobby.
Brad Anderson

Bob, I thank you for coming clean on all this. I spoke with Steve about this in detail today and we both feel that your open apology here is a huge step and we appreciate it along with the personal email we received from you. Neither one of us feel like there is any need on our end to draw anything out or get more than what is now the truth from you. It took a lot of guts to come clean and accept responsibility for your mistakes in the past and we do respect that.

So... thank you for admitting what you did without trying to bury it with excuses.

Lance

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Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

If the female is pure Limpia (the male certainly was), then the blairi expression is a genetic anomoly, if she isn't bingo that provides the answer. It's not difficult to arrive at that choice. The hard part is finding out what happened nine years ago, and I really think it's necessary not just for this clutch, but because the offspring from this lineage have grown up, reproduced and have probably been marketed as pure Limpia. It is possible that a well known alterna breeder, acquired some of this line back in 2000, leaving do doubt it's out there in our community. Andrew Godambe may have a related female from this line. While Norm Nunley seems to think that this lineage is pure (and I don't for a moment doubt Norm's integrity), he did not address the specific anomolies or answer Joe's challenge.

So, nobody should be calling anyone names or hinting at dubious motives. At the end of day, the answers to what happened nine years ago should make this community stronger. I'm gathering the facts and will post some of them soon. I can tell you this now. I happen to trust M. Spanowicz after corresponding with him. IMO, the guy is stand up. He does not fault anyone for questioning the results. In fact, he would have similar concerns, but he only collected a trio of Limpias in a 3.5 breeding group. The rest came from Buzz Ross.

Robert

You said it more eloquently than I. I do not believe that you, Joe, or myself would ever be made to believe those were Limpias unless there were genetic tests that could prove it. I venture to say the critters are not worth the expense of proving or disproving them. I think back 30(or so)years ago when there used to be "blairi" and "alterna" until someone "proved" they were one in the same because of a clutch that had them both. Not to hard to understand when both pattern phases exist in the same location. This is much harder to comprehend since no one has seen "blairs" patterned alterna from Limpia Canyon. After all this time without seeing any, if one were to pop up now I would have my doubts about it also.

ECT

It’s the black color of the female breeder as well. Everyone seems to have glossed over that anomoly in this thread because pics of dark Limpias have surfaced, but these alterna were not black. Jason Penney, an eyewitness, first thought that the alterna collected by Spanowicz from the bridge was black, but later backed off. I have received confirmation from Spanowicz that the alterna was dark, but NOT black. Black is beautiful, but perhaps not so much in Limpia alterna.

Robert

The black is alot easier to get over than the pics of the babies. Black alterna have shown up in most (if not all) of the morphs. Some more often than others. It would not be near the stretch as a "blairs" morph in the Limpia strain. If it was just the black issue I do not think this thread would have gone on for near as long as it has. IMHO

ECT