Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can anyone tell me where to obtain Eastern Milks Legally?

you'd also have to live in a state where it is legal to keep them?......Maryland is able to catch,breed ,and sell them yet...no idea what other states, and actually don't know if MD changed the laws....alot of states are changing laws now...PA even changed them a little over a year ago....we can now keep 1....kinda hard to breed them that way...?...(sell trade or let kids go =0- no)...
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09 odds factors ...
......118
......108/ 13-8-1DIE
...........................
1(1.normal,.1mojave,2.1 spider mojaves)
2(1.normal,1.pastel,spider?Huh,.1blast)1 dud 2 boobs died...
3(2pastelghost,3pastel,1normal....)
4(2normal,7 pastel...)
5(1.pin,5normal...)
6(2normal,1pastel,1.pastel-ghost..)
7(4faded amel, 1 het(axanthic looking faded)....

I have contacted fish and game here. They told me that if i have proof that they came from a breeder out state in the form of a receipt with type, quantity etc. That I am good to go. I just submit it to them, they issue me a permit based on the receipt. I can then breed sell and posess as many as i want. So an out of jersey breeder is my key.

We're cooking unrelated eggs...as this is not the place, hit us up at info@kingofkingsreptiles.com.
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Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

>>Can anyone tell me where to obtain Eastern Milks Legally?

Part of the legality issue is your location. Is it legal to have them in PA?
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

Im in jersey.

PA is 1 now........wheeeee.....LOL.....no breeding ,selling, trading, letting them go actually after you keep them awhile .... ..

....Jersey....no idea...I thought it was closed to all natives.......except red eyed corns ...milks I have no idea....
.......you could get red eyed easterns....LOL...

....they are out there....it all depends on what color and what locality you want to end up with, easterns vary somewhat as adults.......

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09 odds factors ...
......118
......108/ 13-8-1DIE
...........................
1(1.normal,.1mojave,2.1 spider mojaves)
2(1.normal,1.pastel,spider?Huh,.1blast)1 dud 2 boobs died...
3(2pastelghost,3pastel,1normal....)
4(2.normal,3.4 pastel...)
5(1.pin,5normal...)
6(2normal,1pastel,1.pastel-ghost..)
7(6faded amel,2het(axanthic looking faded)....

The state of PA. has recently changed its laws adding more protection for our native herps. These changes are for the better and hopefully have a positive affect. That being said you may legally obtain (1)wild caught specimen. Each member of your household is allowed to posess (1) as well. You can not sell, trade or transport these animals over state lines. However, there is a list of color morphs and species that are exempt from the restrictions. These morphs are legal to reproduce in a closed system and sell freely. Eastern Milk Snakes are on the list in Red ZIG ZAG & STRIPED morphs. Of course the hets of these breedings will also be legal for sale. The challenge will be developing the morphs with the same success as the striped coastals. I believe we are close, very close!
Check with your state to see if such color morph exemptions exist before becoming discouraged. You may be surprised to find a color morph available to you. You should speak up and advocate such exemptions if your state does not already have them. One voice is all it takes. I know this first hand!

? zig zag and stripeds?...that's it?....they missed like 5 or more morphs if that's all the list has....and I nevrer found the list yet...it was still being made up when I last looked for it......anyways......they asked for easterns and I figured they didn't want a morph anyways.....

and who actually has striped or zig zag easterns, never saw or heard of them yet...LOL?....white sided are cool this year, better than last years' even.......still haven't found amel ones either yet....

thanxx...good luck...have fun....

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09 odds factors ...
......118
......108/ 13-8-1DIE
...........................
1(1.normal,.1mojave,2.1 spider mojaves)
2(1.normal,1.pastel,spider?Huh,.1blast)1 dud 2 boobs died...
3(2pastelghost,3pastel,1normal....)
4(2.normal,3.4 pastel...)
5(1.pin,5normal...)
6(2normal,1pastel,1.pastel-ghost..)
7(6faded amel,2het(axanthic looking faded)....

You don't understand how these exemptions came about. The PFBC posted a bulletin in 2006 announcing the proposed changes to the exsisting laws. They opened a period of time for public comment prior to drafting the final laws. I took it upon myself to send in photos of my own Milk Snakes and asked that they consider my animals for exemption as a color morph. I was fortunate that someone in the PFBC was impressed by my animals and gave them official recognition. It is my opinion that the other color morphs are not recognized because there was no interest expressed for them. I would encourage anyone interested in obtaining or breeding the other morphs to get in touch with the powers to be at the PFBC and present them for consideration. You can make a difference for yourself and others by taking positive action.

it would all depend where the zigs came from to begin with?
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09 odds factors ...
......118
......108/ 13-8-1DIE
...........................
1(1.normal,.1mojave,2.1 spider mojaves)
2(1.normal,1.pastel,spider?Huh,.1blast)1 dud 2 boobs died...
3(2pastelghost,3pastel,1normal....)
4(2.normal,3.4 pastel...)
5(1.pin,5normal...)
6(2normal,1pastel,1.pastel-ghost..)
7(6faded amel,2het(axanthic looking faded)....

I collected the zig zag male (brown saddles) in Pike County PA. I was able to produce a single partial zig zag offspring last year from a clutch of 10. The locality mix in my offspring is Bucks County, York County, & Pike County PA. This project will be over the hump very soon (I hope). LOL The real reward in this hobby is watching your eggs hatch and admiring the uniqueness of each animal that emerges. No amount of money can equal that satisfaction. I don't see how anyone can have the best interest of the animal in mind if money is their motivator.

....so they can never be sold
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....Jed....
gone but never forgotten....
sorry my buddy, .....................
June 98 -July 9,09
Jedediah's Golden Dream

Joe is exactly right. Here is a link that covers a good many states:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78071

Keep in mind that all laws pertaining to herps may not fall under a single agency. Most state sites have some type of search function I recommend going through them at least annually to make sure nothings changed.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Eastern milks are on the no no list in every state they occur NOT because they are rare but because they are endemnic. Laws now are just catching up to those commercial collectors....who have been phased out for what??? 10-15 years?? Anyways, possesion and sale may be a little different state to state but ethics are pretty much the same. If you want to keep them I assure you that the state has better things to do than to knock on your door. I mean some big time breeders who keep hundreds(thousands??) of snakes have some in their breeding facilities and arent worrying about them being found in a raid...why are you?
Some states do like to monitor reptile people, and they like you paying for yearly permits too. Most dont care, as long as you arent commercially selling WC animals. If it werent for people catching these animals and captive breeding them there wouldnt be this INDUSTRY that can be TAXED. Its a double edged sword, but the cool thing about milks is they are extremely variable. One breeder I know in MD would claim to his DNR that those werent coastal plains milks...they were man made hybrids from eastern milks and scarlet kings! And the DNR people simply dont have the species ID knowledge to distinguish the difference. How do I know?? I used to be called on as expert witness in such cases for the state!! They had no idea what was what!
The best part about milks is that they are EVERYWHERE. They are one of the most common and most variable snakes in this country. Finding your own, breeding YOUR line, is so much more fun than BUYING anything online/store bought. Its the equivalent of canned veggies in the summer! Now NJ doesnt want you taking them from the Pine Barrens(as some people here do), but take advantage of these big breeders' reputations and if you are going to buy some....buy from them and keep the receipt!! If your state EVER has a problem they will have to explain why they are harrassing a tax paying business in another state for...what?? A guy keeping a couple snakes?? Case dismissed!

Well said Jeff.

Thanks,
Michael

well said..?..tell that to the bunch of people busted last week in an 18 month under cover raid for selling and collecting native reptiles in 3 states....including the ones he talks about...

they are among us, buying from us and talking with us...they are in here...so keep it all legal .....

....so many legal snakes to have.....too many actually....

..even without ball pythons...LOL...

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09 odds factors ...
......118
......108/ 13-8-1DIE
...........................
1(1.normal,.1mojave,2.1 spider mojaves)
2(1.normal,1.pastel,spider?Huh,.1blast)1 dud 2 boobs died...
3(2pastelghost,3pastel,1normal....)
4(2.normal,3.4 pastel...)
5(1.pin,5normal...)
6(2normal,1pastel,1.pastel-ghost..)
7(6faded amel,2het(axanthic looking faded)....

Now what did they get arrested for?? The only way they get on the radar to begin with is to do it for MONEY. To collect a couple common snakes, to put the effort into breeding them, selling the offspring for reasonable rehoming fees(out of state!) doesnt warrant a slap on the wrist. It must have been either the numbers or the species in question, they certainly werent being investigated for being a hobbyist with milksnakes. Maybe that charge was thrown on top as good cops do.....so it looks worse when it comes before a judge....Any links? Any newspapers that would cover it? I think we would all be interested. Hope it was that guy who collects all those scarlet kings every spring,lol.

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/newsreleases/2009/070209 Commission files charges illegal reptile sales.pdf

Lancaster Newspaper, Intelligencer Journal...look keyword reptile ...if you can't find it I';ll look....18 month sting isn't a cop slapping wrists....turtle people ,thought I wrote that, collecting illegally,having more then allowed, no permits, selling natives, $50 to $500 each count...lots of counts....

re-homing fee...what a crock of craigsheet....I hate that bull....if I have an animal that needs a new home and I want it rescued for real...it's free...rehoming is just a lie and a way to rip people off selling stuff online they aren't allowed to sell......most stuff on krak'slist is over the price of a retail animal.....

anyways............glad you still are a happy camper in life.....

.....they are out there...they have talked to you at shows if you attend...trust me....they are here in the milk forum....
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09 odds factors ...
......118
......108/ 13-8-1DIE
...........................
1(1.normal,.1mojave,2.1 spider mojaves)
2(1.normal,1.pastel,spider?Huh,.1blast)1 dud 2 boobs died...
3(2pastelghost,3pastel,1normal....)
4(2.normal,3.4 pastel...)
5(1.pin,5normal...)
6(2normal,1pastel,1.pastel-ghost..)
7(6faded amel,2het(axanthic looking faded)....

An 18 month sting is like 4-5 days of work, its not like its an 18 month jail sentence. I am really happy they got the guys that the law is designed to catch. Not sure what your version of "happy camper" is, sounds like a 2nd place Yankee fan, LMAO. But realize my other post had ETHICS in it. When you can, do the right thing. I know ALOT more good can come from a kid catching a snakes, having it lay eggs, hatching/feeding babies, etc...than could possibly be bad. Wildlife belongs to us all to USE, not ABUSE. Be ethical, know the difference. But know there arent any milksnake police here or anywhere else, lol.

ethics and legality...exactly....
before in PA you could own 2 milks ....not sell, breed and sell babies ,or trade them....after a date ? you could own 1....if you got a permit you could keep the 2.....period....
you could not catch ,sell, breed and sell ,any native stuff or captive babies- from said stuff in PA...never could...PA is basically closed to natives from a breeding standpoint....
except for "morphs" ...that were purchased and bred....etc etc etc....from another state.....IE :albino black rats were never really much of a big deal to keep or sell ....

anyways...ethics...yea...like when I went and we found 9 milks this year ...pr 4 foot 3 at 3 foot and babies....then the railroad came along and ripped the wood out and took it all, so I am told....meaning snakes died ,got ripped and have nowhere to hide......habitat loss all the time....and they wonder why "northern people" don't have anywhere to look for snakes to "tell" about....there is no place and there are no cool snakes or good reasons usually.....

...have fun.......buy more western milks...!....
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....Jed....
gone but never forgotten....
sorry my buddy, .....................
June 98 -July 9,09
Jedediah's Golden Dream

All the snakes were not in the wood, and milks are definately still in the area but underground. If you want to see em, "plant" some AC, if you build it they will come.......

on the right day at the right time after a cool night, yes, most are in or under the wood, it's all that was there
...I am not intrested in creating cover....
...it is illegal to actually be on RR property to begin with, so why would I litter on it and increase any fines I may obtain and the time it takes me to be there?...(..um...I spent like an hour there, out of 49 years, not too long a time so far)....

anyways.we can argue and complain about each other all you like...from what I see, people in here see what they want the way they want....others know what's legal.....

...have fun monsterman.......
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....Jed....
gone but never forgotten....
sorry my buddy, .....................
June 98 -July 9,09
Jedediah's Golden Dream

First, here is the link http://www.laurelneme.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=149peration-shellshock-breaks-up-reptile-smuggling-ring-in-new-york&catid=18:blog&Itemid=119

Now if you read it, it has to do with COMMERCIAL exploitation of MOSTLY TURTLES to the asian markets. Oh ya, and 33 endangered massasaugas across into Canada! Other species mentioned include spotted turtles, hognose snakes(not sure why they would care about these)and of course the NY wood turtles, timbers and coppers.

Now that "ring" is what they SHOULD be looking for, that is what SHOULD be illegal. For a hobbyist to worry about keeping a couple milks, breeding and selling a few of their babies-its just not worth($$) the states/country's time to process the small fish. Do I say "everyone go out and collect some milks to breed and sell"?? NO, of course not. If I had to guess, I would say anything less than $5K simply isnt worth their time. Now, there are cases that MORPHS can concievably be a target, and of course there is that case on Colorado with the leucy hognose. But this is the benefit of "just" being a hobbyist.

tell it like it is.......
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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

so if I sell one snake illegally it's ok ? but if I sell 100 it's illegal?....

.....and milkheads think it's illegal to breed a Calvert's with a St Mary's.....???

......you guys crack me up to a point of total confusion and misunderstanding of you all...........
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....Jed....
gone but never forgotten....
sorry my buddy, .....................
June 98 -July 9,09
Jedediah's Golden Dream

Drive 56 and you will NEVER get pulled over, drive 156 and you will. Most of us are in between, and its the individual's job to interpret. Being a common snake, endemnic, and non poisonous they fly below the radar unless you are doing something ELSE wrong.....I live in a state where its illegal to eat peanuts in church, they outlawed Christmas, and pissing in the woods is a SEX CRIME. You can follow the letter of the law, but me and Michael Jackson got a little in common!

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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

you both ate Peanuts?....

I thought his name was Bubbles?

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....Jed....
gone but never forgotten....
sorry my buddy, .....................
June 98 -July 9,09
Jedediah's Golden Dream

Remember when you were little and you blew Bubbles??

He's back in town lookin for you.

If you were "fishing" you caught me...

Noone thinks breeding Calvert to St Marys temporalis is illegal.

It's just pointless.

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Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

That was good stuff!

Thanks,
Mike

agreed on all points....but, hobbyists often get caught in the drag net...if they bought from the guys busted....often they will be contacted by a planted agent ,who over time will gain his confidence, before offering protected species.....often saying LE ain't gonna care about a few snakes....etc....then after enough "buys"...it happens..."we have a e search warrent to inspect your reptile collection"....they will have copies of the receipts and pics of the animals...these people usually get charged civil offense and pay a fine.....but the conviction helps support the claims of an illegal high profit reptile sales rig....

Everyone speeds in their car. If the speed limit is 55, we all do....60, 62?? More?? Its not those people they WANT to catch, but they throw the book full of little crap at someone they find doing 100(reckless endangerment,etc)so that it STICKS. If Tim McVeigh wasnt caught for speeding he may still be at large! Bottom line, if you dont do bad things,ethically bad things not fractionally bad things, you have no reason to be concerned. But if you try and take advantage of the system, your greed will get you caught.

POINT WELL TAKEN AND UNDERSTOOD.....A LOT DEPENDS ON THE LAW AGENTS INVOVLED.....how's your big butt milk project????....nice job with that spacial population

WHATS WITH THE CAPS?? Snakes dont have butts, and what is a spacial population anyways??

Oh mannnn, LMAO......Jeff you're killin' me tonight........

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Jerry Kruse

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

This has turned into a pretty heated debate here. Not what I expected when I posted.

I have read the articles on this bust and this looks like a poaching operation that was definitely more than just a hobbyist catching some for personal satisfaction. These guys were ALL about the loot. What I still don’t understand about our lawmakers’ mindset is why not let locals engage in breeding to make animals more readily available? By keeping it totally shut out they create the markets themselves. If the wild animals are not worth anything because they are readily available from breeders then the wilds lose their value.

I think captainjack has the right idea here. Without the hobbyist going down, educating and fighting the state, they will just say “it’s illegal” and put it on the shelf never to be looked at until blatant disregard for that law catches their attention and allows them to generate revenue from the infraction. Let’s face it that the all mighty dollar is the governing factor for the states decisions.

I can remember being escorted from Joe Hughes' mom's yard by the local VA cops. The fact that he stole my whole collection didnt seem to bother them. They turn to me and say "the criminals hide behind the law", and there is your answer. If you had lesser amounts legal you would have more commercial collectors claiming to have only X amount. With a zero tolerance law, they can then selectively enforce at their discretion without that benefit available to hide behind. And again, its simply not worth the courts time to prosecute anyone resembling a hobbyist without an agenda.

......I didn't get who was hiding...I did get that Joe Hughes would have had major problems from that point on....

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....Jed....
gone but never forgotten....
sorry my buddy, .....................
June 98 -July 9,09
Jedediah's Golden Dream

If one of these NY guys claimed to be "just a breeder"(if breeder permits existed), there could be something in the law left to interpretation. As it is, there is nothing for anyone but the arresting officer to interpret. I only hope they all take herps seriously. When I filed charges in VA beach the police wouldnt even act on it even though the collection was worth about $15k!

?point?

maybe the police knew you?

.......send Jery down there?...

why were your snakes in his home?

VA beach? I thought you lived north of me?...

....wait....I don't care.....
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....Jed....
gone but never forgotten....
sorry my buddy, .....................
June 98 -July 9,09
Jedediah's Golden Dream