Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We at kingsnake.com have a great opportunity to learn more about the Burmese Python Study currently being conducted at the Savannah River Ecology Laboratory . Researchers John (J.D.) Wilson, Michael Dorcas and Whit Gibbons have graciously offered to take questions from our members in reference to this study.

For those who are not aware, the purpose of this study is to assess the survivability of the Burmese Pythons that are currently thriving in the Everglades at a more northern location. To learn more about this study, please visit kingsnake.com/SRELpythonresearch.pdf and read the brochure.

What we are asking from our members is that you take the time to formulate respectful questions for the three researchers involved in this project. They will graciously give us their time and answer to the best of their abilities. We at kingsnake will keep close contact and work to arrange a chat as the research continues. We will also continue to update you with the progress.

If you would like to pose a question, there are two ways. Respond to this thread is one. You may also email me at phfaust@pethobbyist.com

I will collect questions until July 15, 2009 and then send them off to the research team.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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I have several questions related to both the study and interpetation of results. Much of my concerns about design are likely to be answered by the fact this is a first study and may have limited resources.

Why use adults when adults may be temperature adapted to southernmost Florida leading to animals that respond poorly to South Carolina winter temps?
Would not using a much larger number of neonates released in the late summer be better in that those which may have some genetic predisposition to survive in colder temperatures may be present in the sample?
Given the genetic influences present to survive more northerly climate would be present in the native populations, has any analysis of the genetics of the US feral population been performed vis a vis the genetic profile of Burmese pythons across the native range?

All three questions lead to different interpretations of the results, not simply survivorship or not, although high survivorship of the sample indicates potential for naturalization in South Carolina, lack of survival does not.
American alligators are well-known for the capacity of adults to live well north of the presumptive original range, they just can't reproduce successfully north of North Carolina.

In somewhat of the same vein, I'm wondering if the larger size of the adults might help them get through a cool night, just using their mass to slow thermal loss.

It would certainly be interesting to include a few juveniles in the study.

Thanks for sharing with the community!

~Bruce

Do these snakes have any natural predators in the US?

Is there any way to stop them from breeding or expanding their territory?

How far north can they live?
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0.1 BCI
1.1 Dumeril's Boas
1.1 Okeetee
2.0 Motley Sunglow, Bloodred
0.2 Motley Sunglow, Ghost

I would like to know if there will be food released into the research area or if the snakes will have find what they can on their own and if its possible for potential prey animals to enter the location close to how they would in a more "natural" situation. thanks, Greg
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions....

I doubt it would be done in a potential climate survivability study but i just have to ask if the snakes will be provided with any type of artificial heat source?
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions....

Wow that is very interesting. I'm so glad someone is doing this. I love Burmese pythons, but at least this study should show how out of whack some of these predicted burmese expansion ranges really are.

What sort of basking areas they have in the enclosure? I noticed the water area has concrete around it which should warm up some, but it's very light in color, and probably won't conduct as much heat as something darker.

What is the size range of these 10 males?

What is the reason for using all males?

It is clear to me that they chose all males so if an accidental escape were to happen the species could not establish itself into Georgia.

That being said, I would love to know that "if" the species can survive, then can it reproduce in this climate of Georgia. Not sure they'd chance that study. Perhaps if the enclosure proves itself escape proof and a second layer of safety fencing is added they could try.

Nonetheless, it is likely they will find less the healthy animals during mid-winter. I support this thought with the FACT that burmese pythons cannot survive in our SoCal homes thru the winter without additional heat. Our SoCal homes are far warmer than outside in Georgia. This leads to my question.

If the animals are found to be failing, will the researchers allow them to perish?

I also ask, how and what food will be provided?
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

I'm curious about the subterranean hibernacula that will be provided for the snakes,the types of food they'll receive, and the duration/time frame of this Study.

Will the subterranean hibernacula be large enough for the snakes?

Will they be the size they would find "naturally", since Burmese Pythons can't dig them for themselves?

Since not many animals in the US dig burrows that are large enough to accomidate a Burmese Python, How did they decide on the sizes/depths of the subterranean hibernacula.

Will there be enough so they and "all" have a place to possibly escape the cold?

Will they make it so that only some of them will have a subterranean hibernacula and others won't? After all, there's no guarantee that they'd "all" be able to locate one for the Winter?

Will they provide adequate food for "each" animal? Since finding food in the wild is sometimes difficult, you'd have to have some of them "go hungry".

Will they be offerd food that they would find in "nature". I'm not talking farm raised rodents and such. I'm talking about "wild prey". Some wild prey carries parisites and disease. In order for this to be a valid "Study", they'd have to be exposed to what ever nature throws at them. Are you going to capture wild prey items for them to eat?

Lastly......How long will the Study last? Snakes have a slow metabolism and even if they do survive the first Winter, they may not survive a second. It can take a long time for disease to take down such a large animal. Failing health might take them out in a second Winter or prehaps a third.

One more thing....

Hopefully these animals will be treated humanely. I'd like to think their health fails, they'll be taken out of the Study and receive medical care. Once removed, they can be "counted" as a death, but not have to die.

I have a feeling that in order for this Study to be truely valid..... The Pythons will need to ride it out to the end. What even those end results might be.

When the Study is finished, where will the results be published? I'm sure that there's a LOT of people that will be wanting to see the end results.

I just hope there is a fair amount of warm blooded predators in the study area. Exposed torpid pythons in the cold will be virtually defenseless, say should a hungry Feral Pig, Coyote, or Bobcat come across them. Is this realistic scenario possible? Does the study area contain representative populations of warm blooded carnivores? Let's be sure to include all the possible natural contingencies.
Will there be freeway and highway vehicular traffic? Let's include the catastrophically fatal environmental modifications of man, while we're at it.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The snakes are enclosed so likely these predators are excluded from the study.

You do bring up an interesting point tho. The study likely cannot test for ALL potential reasons for loss. Just those due to disease and weather.

>>I just hope there is a fair amount of warm blooded predators in the study area. Exposed torpid pythons in the cold will be virtually defenseless, say should a hungry Feral Pig, Coyote, or Bobcat come across them. Is this realistic scenario possible? Does the study area contain representative populations of warm blooded carnivores? Let's be sure to include all the possible natural contingencies.
>>Will there be freeway and highway vehicular traffic? Let's include the catastrophically fatal environmental modifications of man, while we're at it.
>>jsc
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>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

"Since not many animals in the US dig burrows that are large enough to accomidate a Burmese Python"

Fox and groundhog burrows are plenty big enough.

The basic premise as stated in the project overview (2nd sentence) is based on flawed information and bad science. At that point, how can you get an accurate scientific result?

>>The basic premise as stated in the project overview (2nd sentence) is based on flawed information and bad science. At that point, how can you get an accurate scientific result?

The second sentence is the basis for the study. They are trying to test the hypothesis set for by the "bad science" you reference. If the snakes survive (like we believe they will not) then it proves the hypothesis plausible. If they all die, then of course it proves the hypothesis bad science.

I know for a fact here in southern California animals inside of our homes without proper heat will die in weeks. Not months. I used to see it every week. No way the species makes it from late october to may and have a new growing season. Burms dont hibernate!
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

I know that, but the flyer seems to take it as fact, instead of questioning the premise.

>>I know that, but the flyer seems to take it as fact, instead of questioning the premise.

You are kidding right? The entire flyer and the subsequent study are solely about questioning the premise and you don't thing they question the premise? HUH?

I must be thick. Am I missing something?
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

the flyer seems to take it as fact

I think I get it afterall.

The flyer speaks of the paper as fact. Not it's results.

The paper is a fact. It does exist. It has been published. Thus we get this thoughtful study to test the hypothesis.

May I ask?

Do you see the difference between the paper being a fact and it's contents being nonsense, and that they accept the paper as a fact, so they test it's content?
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Uh...yeah, but now my head hurts, lol.

I guess what I meant was they are taking incorrect data (imo) and representing that as fact.

Does THAT make any sense?

I need a drink.