Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK here's the snake again.


I would guess the first thing people would think when they saw this snake was that there's some Splendida or something in the mix making it one of this forums "that's not pure" snakes. I can understand that.... the pattern is circular and Splendida can look similar.

NOW, Here's what I found interesting

I was on the phone with author and Kingsnake know it all Brian Hubbs, the guy who just put out the GREATEST Kingsnake book in history by the way.... and we were talking about the White Wall Specks. I told him that Terry Vandeventer included a little history on the Albino Specks when I was getting the history of the White Walls for my site.

There are Albino Speckleds with a dot on every scale but some have noticeable cross bars, actually most do...they seem to be more common. I told Brian the area it came from and how Terry and the others were told the conclusion was the original Albino was probably a Speckled-Desert King cross. Brian said now hold on a second.......went into his computer to look at his range maps, and told me NO, there are no Splendida in the area the Speck was collected.

So...... I again realized how easy it is to quickly jump to a conclusion because the appearance of something leans more towards a different subspecies. I this case myself and most people I know would simply say this snake is a cross... when that may not be the case at all.

I have more eggs from this project and look forward to seeing what comes of it but honestly I am hoping for morphs which wont count too much haha.

My vote is that these are still "PURE" Speckleds. The White Wall project began with a wild caught snake that was bred to snakes from 3 different states, so there's a huge amount of variation in those as babies but most Speckle into snakes with dots on every scale regardless of how the babies look.

I bred a snake from that project into an Albino and got the neat patterned baby pictured in this post, another similar one and a real dark one like baby Nigra.

I think hobbyists WANT Speckleds to have a dot on every scale so that means if one isn't patterned like this it may not be pure... I think hobbyists look at lots of things this way though variations in appearance may not be as decisive in purity as we think.
That's my thoughtful post for the month
The End

Tom just got 10 eggs from my Hypo Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I think inbreeding allows these traits to line up and express by concentrating them, rather than outcrossing which supresses them. The outcross, which is actually introducing more diversity, is what makes the most common features be the norm. Inbreeding is the way to pop out the unique genes the snake is carrying, that might be so dormant they otherwise never get expressed.
I am also a firm believer in early man’s role in spreading some of the genes around. As in native American (and earlier) kids keeping snakes as pets and releasing them into new territories, etc. I think some tribes knew certain snakes would kill rattlers and rats and probably learned to accept and keep some. It’s probably why they are all partially related anyway. I wish I could learn more to support that theory.

That is a very interesting theory!
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Todd Hughes

Tom...
I look at that picture again and it still reminds me of a checkered holbrooki....

Not Splendida....

More Kansas holbrooki looking...

That is my opinion....I wonder how yellow it will turn out to be as it ages?

What three states was Terry V's holbrooki from?
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Guys, kings are kings, there is only 1 species! The idea of subspecies....well, they didnt get the memo. There are always outlying genes/pattern variations within ANY population, captive or not. We can selectively breed for it, but technically it is no different than any other.
They did a study on ratsnakes(Black,yellow,everglades,texas,gray,etc), results?? They are all genetically IDENTICAL. Their habitat chooses the color that survives, not the snakes themselves. This should be no different for kings, and that MOSAIC FL king is the perfect example. With GOINI(sorry, I still dont accept MEANSI), the pattern is selected for in that habitat. So the question should be, WHY?
Back to intergrades, and the real difference with hybrids. With all the selective breeding,crosses etc....WHY has there NEVER(to my knowledge)been a GETULA x NA TRIANGULUM cross?? They are the closest related SPECIES in this country!! Outside this country(Mexico etc)they do interbreed and the idea of SPECIES is further blurred, which makes the idea of ssp. in Mexico even less valid.
ANY captive bred kingsnakee x kingsnakee is 10000% PURE, by definition. The only question you ever have to ask is what the more influensive genes selectively bred for. Some people will not tell you the truth because they want to sell you a snake......bottom line, deal with honest breeders and get pics of the parents and you should be all set.
I will end this with a challenge---has ANYONE ever bred or heard of a captive breeding getula x NA triangulum? One EATS the other, so where they occur together they are genetically programmed(pheremones)to resist this. And my guess is that our special TX people will see how closely they are related to Mexicans,lmao!

I have seen pictures of a wild population of Eastern King X Eastern Milk taken from Southern Indiana I believe. Don't go freakin if that sounds wrong...the state ID may be off, but I vividly remember the snakes and they would have been a hit in the hobby. Very cool looking. So to my knowledge there HAS been a King X Milk cross in the wild.
Just bringing up something to go along with your reply... I actaully forgot about them...
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

It'd either have to be black kings X eastern milk, or a different state.

Yes sir, as I mentioned the state could be way off, but I know it was quite north and I saw the pics myself. Apparently the local hepers wanted to keep it to themselves.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Northeast herpers tend to be pretty psychotic when it comes to protecting locales and animals and such. Seems like herpers from the south are a lot more laid back.

In the north there are alot more people and ALOT less land to hunt. In the south there is alot more land, and lets face it, the southern guys are a bit more lazy hunters....road cruising and all. ROFLMAO!

wish you could get in your car, drive around for a few hours, and find 30 snakes.

TROLL! There's a bridge burning 'round here! Jeff, you are sooo out of it for that comment, how many friggin' pics do you need?!! And the Texas/Mexico thing, well, your true colors are starting to show. Can't see your face for inflection but, c'mon, man...
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Todd Hughes

I got NO IDEA what you are talking about. My face is just fine thanks. I never asked for pics, you might have the wrong guy there Todd!

Jeff, I was referring to the fact you stated us southern guys are too lazy to get out and herp, I have 100000000000000000's , ok, many hundreds of field photos and share them often in the field notes forum and other forums as well. You were very unclear with your Texan/Mexican innuendo, sounded like it could have been racial? If I had bred a king to a milk, you can bet I would have photoed that event, but that doesn't happen in my herp room, at least not now, lol! If I don't pair up my anulatta with a locale gal, I might put a female splendida to a big boy anulatta, just to see if it can be done, not that it should or shouldn't be done. LOL!
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Todd Hughes

On average, northern guys do have to get out of their car and move alot more stuff to find snakes than southern guys. You gotta know that. What I meant was that TX is the only state with not only Getula and Triangulum, but with the mexicana "complex" too. I was referring to this complex and possibly hybrids with these instead of getula x triangulum. You gotta have your anti-sensetive pants on to read my posts, you should know that by now! LOL~~

LOL! I never sit at my computer with pants on, that's just silly! Well, being in a big state one can't help it if we see more snakes getting to the herping areas than we do IN the herping areas! And with the road ban, you will be seeing a lot more field critters than road cruised, I bet.
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Todd Hughes

Ohhh, pics of Getula x triangulum....thats right, sorry its late. OK, hit me with some pics! Its my suggestion that "Lamps" intergrade/cross breed throughout mexico and thats part of ID problems. If you are from TX, I really cant see desert or specks breeding with Mex milks/LA milks....but again if you have pics please post em! I am NOT talking about ANY of the mexican complex ssp..

LMAO, ALL NIGHT LONG!!!
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Todd Hughes

Ironic!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

......not reading this again or at all...LOL.....does not look splendita to me at all actually....looks more hybrid if anything, but you say it's not..so cool...actually speckled kings havd this pattern alot...I saw it on an amel one right after the last time you posted this pic...the albino had the same round patterned saddles and head pattern was similar at first glance.....I think speckleds have a very varied pattern to begin with.....I prefer the totally speckled ones with one white dot on each scale, second choice is the ones with one yellow dot per scale...LOL....(I own no holbrooki,never did )

...good luck......!,........

...
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09 odds factors ...
......118
......108/ 13-8-1DIE
...........................
1(1.normal,.1mojave,2.1 spider mojaves)
2(1.normal,1.pastel,spider?Huh,.1blast)1 dud 2 boobs died...
3(2pastelghost,3pastel,1normal....)
4(2.normal,3.4 pastel...)
5(1.pin,5normal...)
6(2normal,1pastel,1.pastel-ghost..)
7(6faded amel,2het(axanthic looking faded)....

want some? You know you do!!!

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Todd Hughes

Tom, that may well be a speckled king, it certainly has speckles, and it may be an intergrade, I don't know. What I do know is the het male whitewall I have from you is most certainly a speckled king. The female is a whitewall speckled king. I am with Frank on this one, once removed from nature it is what you call it, or not. No one knows for sure, and for the purists that is the way it is, for king snake lovers, that snake in your hand is a knockout! I would not hesitate to add it to my group, but it wouldn't be outcrossed into any of the snakes I gained from the wild unless I forego that locality forever. I have morphs and I have wild caught and F1's from wild caught in my collection, my thayeri are gorgeous, and I can track them for a generation or two, but I certainly won't sell them as anything but damn gorgeous kings. If you don't keep those two, send them to me. I understand that it is very hard in this arena to have both morphs and locality animals, and for my locality animals, I prefer to procure my own. But I am not aware of exactly where all my morphs originated, so they are morphs. I have the striped meahlmorrim rat that I found, but that is it. All my locality animals show the phenotype the purists look for. As for me, I trust you to sell me snakes I want, sheet man, half my kings came from you lol! And that is how they are represented, Mexican blacks out of Tom Stevens line...high white aberrant Cal kings from Tom Stevens, White wall specks from Tom Stevens' line...only the w.c. animals caught by me are labeled locality. Oh, and in specks, there is most certainly an ontogenic change, most specks from the south have bars when born, in the north, they can be checkered, or barred, or have a pattern somewhat similar to yours. In the intergrade zone, it is a mess, I have hundreds of pics of splendida/holbrooki looking intergrades and pics of both subs from the exact same area, not to mention, relict populations of what appear to be intergrades with absolutely no gene flow.
All that blow aside, that is a awesome king, I wouldn't sell it, but if you do.....
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Todd Hughes

Tom the thing is people have their ideas of what a classic sub-specific form looks. I tend to look at the center of a subs range and use the manefest phenotype from that area as the "classic" form. In my mind the specks from the MS delta area are the furthest away from any other adjacent for so they would be the most "pure" or classic form. Outside of these classic types people there are always going to questions primarily becasue there is no concensus on what pure means. In the end the only thing that can be pure is locality.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I used this snake as an opportunity to show my opinion which happens to be that a look only has only so much to do with purity. I aint touching the "what is pure" subject anymore, I will try not too anyway haha.

I did the post because occasionally someone pops out a weird snake in a clutch and the first thing people seem to say is that it is a cross. It is as if there's no escape anymore and that mindset influences newcomers which I just aint into.
BY ALL MEANS
I am all for honest representation but even drastic differences in appearance do not always influence me personally to assume it is a hybrid.
That's all folks!
Tom just got 5 more Cal King eggs Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Isnt it ironic....many of us breed to produce something "different", that sets us apart from every other breeder. But if you produce something too different your reputation takes a hit! I got out of ratsnakes because I got tired of explaining the history of every single animal to non-believers. Raising a beer---here is to variation!

You may remember the Albino Goini mayhem.....after all the grief my male Albino died during brumation and the female gave me nothing but slugs. I have a definite het and possible het I have never proven out and you wanna know what I am doing instead of hunting down a mate from the blood line? I am making Hybrids instead! Since that is all anyone ever had to say about them... well I may as well make it so there is no doubt....now I will be making hybrids someday...hopefully crazy weird lookin ones haha
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com