Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm camping in the glades next month, and although this following statement will elicit strong responses (of that I am sure), I was hoping to catch some feral burms to help reduce thier impact on the local fauna. Will ranger stations do the euthanization for me or do I have to do it myself? If so, what is the most humane method I can use?

No I'm not a cruel masochist, no I don't like hurting any animal, but we (the hobby) made this mess, we oughta clean it up or at least try.

If your opinion is I shouldn't do any such thing, then I really don't need to hear from you.

If you have any contacts at the park that I should speak to, or locales that are hardest hit, that would be much appreciated.
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"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature, only to what we know of it."

I will not go on about ethics involved with your plan but I will say you shouldn't do this since in the state of florida you have to have a permit to possess burms and in order to catch and kill you have to possess them. You will essentially be breaking the law.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Posted by: joshhutto at Thu Jul 9 15:22:36 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by joshhutto ] Share

I will not go on about ethics involved with your plan but I will say you shouldn't do this since in the state of florida you have to have a permit to possess burms and in order to catch and kill you have to possess them. You will essentially be breaking the law.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, an amel tiger retic female, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!
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The zillion Feral cats you see do way more damage than pythons perhaps he can look in to that lol and bulldozers/cement pourer's which in Florida are non stop do more damage . Than all the exotics put together in a million life times could ever do in a 1 mile radius but that state sponsored thus okay pfft.

Well, you can run them over on the Main Park Rd in the Everglades National Park. That's the only way you're going to find them at this time of year.

You really won't make a dent in their population though. There are thousands and thousands, and at best you might find a handful of adults.

It is not known where the Burmese populations in the Glades came from. Some say zoos and importers that got hit by Hurricane Andrew, others say hobbyists let them go.

It is illegal to touch them inside the park bounderies, period.

Attempting to go out and "euthanize" a few animals to help the impact they are having is ludicrous.

Would you also be looking to euthanize the insane amount of lizard, bird, fish and plant species that are invasive, destructive, introduced non-natives??

I know you meant well, and you thought you might help out a bit, but the reality is you wouldn't. You would simply be breaking park and state laws while risking legal and financial burden on a vacation.

I seriously doubt any LE will give you any grief what so ever if you told him/her your intentions. They may even point you in the right direction.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

Assuming things can not only get you in trouble but can cause trouble for others.

Anyone who's ever caught a snake in Florida knows...catching anything in a protected area native or not will get you busted. Burms are no exception . A good point was made about needing a permit. Its no different then someone catching rattlesnakes with out a hot license. I would advise any would be collectors to get your ROC permit first and foremost. Then find out the legal areas that can be hunted.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I just sent an email to a very good friend of mine, a LT. in FWCC. I'm sure he will give some insight into your proposed plan.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

You can not do it.
They will have you arrested and fined.
When all this started making the national spotlight awhile back I actually called good ole Skip Snow after getting his info from a friend and offered to spend my time and my dime helping out down there and I was told "we have it under control and do not need any outside help"
Well we see how under control they have it.
But I was informed that if I tried and was caught I would be arrested and fined.
So my advice is to not even think about it.

This reply was from my friend in FWCC
"If one was to possess/capture a ROC species then he would need a ROC
permit. It has not got to that point that a bounty has been posted to
exterminate feral pythons. The National Park regulations would
supercede regulations within their boundaries. I believe the NP's
regulations just changed whereby persons with valid concealed weapons
permits could possess firearms for personal safety within Park. But I
would check with them to confirm that."
It's pretty much what the others have said.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

Posted by: kachunga at Fri Jul 10 16:36:19 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by kachunga ] Share

This reply was from my friend in FWCC
"If one was to possess/capture a ROC species then he would need a ROC
permit. It has not got to that point that a bounty has been posted to
exterminate feral pythons. The National Park regulations would
supercede regulations within their boundaries. I believe the NP's
regulations just changed whereby persons with valid concealed weapons
permits could possess firearms for personal safety within Park. But I
would check with them to confirm that."
It's pretty much what the others have said.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"
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I the Glades park never allows killing of pythons due to the fact thast MANY would kill any snake they see corn-king-INDIGO you name it.

They wouldnt know difference between a 6 ft python or 6 ft corn as its traveling in marshy area .

I go to Glades a lot have never seen a python but some old jumbo corns that drooling idiots who want to "help out" by killing pythons might only be to happy to kill .

The notion that I would be breaking the law by "possessing" the burm is a goofy technicality and for all practial purposes, a joke. They're a known problem and I'd be bringing them to the authorities, not hiding from them. I'm not worried about it.

I never said the average "drooling idiot", as you put it, should go out and do this, I think that is as silly as you do, but I'm not that guy... after 15 years of field herping and python keeping, the likelihood of me mistaking a cornsnake for a burm is pretty close to zilch, and not a problem worth discussing.

The notion that there are thousands and you couldn't possibly make a dent in the population is like saying we should let the rats and goats in the galapagos endanger the wildlife there too... because it's hard? I'm glad I'm not a marine iguana in your world. Man has never had a problem extirpating large vertebrates when we want to, alligators almost went extinct by our doing, and there's millions of them!

I've never kept burms, but I want to protect the hobby by cleaning up someone else's mess. As informed and experienced herpers we're better than anyone at catching wild snakes. I plan to do some good with that skill, even if I find it distasteful myself, it must be done.

Perhaps this was the wrong forum to post this on. I certainly didn't intend to upset anyone, so I hope that I have not. I thought people would have already come around to the notion that we need to fix this, the problem's not getting smaller only bigger.

Bryan
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"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature, only to what we know of it."

I didn't get the impression that anyone was upset by your desire to euthanize snakes.

As for the authorities helping, it is the FWC...a Guy saved an 4-5ft alligator from being run over last year on one of our central FL roads. I'm pretty sure he called the authorities (FWC) to help and he ended up with a ticket for handling a protected species.

The Burms may be a nuisance in the Everglades, but the park rangers haven't exactly put out the call for hunters to come take them out. They much prefer that people stick to foot trails and not damage the habitat.

I don't think the "forum" is coming down on you, from my perspective. I just think that others are less enthusiastic about the idea than you are and have shared their concerns. Perhaps it would be a better idea if it were carried out outside of the Everglades National Park?

surely you have better things to do with your time then to post here? You do seem like a smart fellow, however; to post something like this on a forum that is based on "burmese pythons as PETS" tells me that your either very bored, or need to get a rise out of some of us. Either way, in my opinion, it's about as dumb of a thing to do, as to post on the "cat forum" that you plan on driving around your local neighborhood to find and "euthanize" some of the local strays. Best of luck on making a difference though.

I would agree that it was a poor choice to post this question on this forum, silly move on my part. I don't feel that people have come down on me, I've disagreed with some of the opinions voiced but still appreciate each one. I do believe getting rid of burms is possible and I guess I view it as necessary dirty work, where others do not. Fair enough and I will move on. Thanks to all
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"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature, only to what we know of it."

Posted by: redtailedguyana at Sun Jul 12 19:16:59 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by redtailedguyana ] Share

surely you have better things to do with your time then to post here? You do seem like a smart fellow, however; to post something like this on a forum that is based on "burmese pythons as PETS" tells me that your either very bored, or need to get a rise out of some of us. Either way, in my opinion, it's about as dumb of a thing to do, as to post on the "cat forum" that you plan on driving around your local neighborhood to find and "euthanize" some of the local strays. Best of luck on making a difference though.
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Funny you mention feral cats. I have never sen a python in the Glades but have seen feral cats with small cornsnakes,etc in their mouths.
They are up in tree's ,etc but not a single politician would DARE mention that.

" The notion that I would be breaking the law by "possessing" the burm is a goofy technicality and for all practial purposes, a joke. "

I don`t think anyone was upset. Theres nothing wrong with good intentions . You were given good honest advice, including a direct quote from FWC . Those of us who live here and actually go collecting understand how it works. The best piece of advice was already given, at the very least hunt outside the park.

" Man has never had a problem extirpating large vertebrates when we want to, alligators almost went extinct by our doing, and there's millions of them! "

There's no comparing Alligators to burms. Gators lay in the open during the day and eye shine at night . Its like shooting fish in a barrel or Buffalo on the plains.

Burms are very elusive . A large adult can be coiled up ten feet from you and you wouldn't know it was there. What your talking about isn't hard its impossible . You can no more kill off the burms then you can the wild pigs.

" I thought people would have already come around to the notion that we need to fix this, the problem's not getting smaller only bigger. "

Those who know understand.....The truth is burms are part of Florida's ecology now and are assimilating into the existing environment. They will never be eradicated . Along with about 2000 other non native species existing in the Everglades. Not to mention the other HUGE environmental issues . Burms get the most attention because their show stoppers but...................

The burms actual overall impact is probably negligible . The idea that the everglades is some pristine natural habitat that is being ruined by monster snakes is a figment of the media's imagination that's been planted by those with an agenda .

What we need to fix is all the hype and misinformation that's circulating. The genuine reality's and facts need to be put forward and viewed in realistic terms .

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I don't think anyone seemed upset, just offering opinions. I don't own burms either, but I don't think you're thought process is correct. Your intentions are good, but you've bought into the hype. How do you know the existence of the burms is not helping some species? The "science" behind the hysteria is junk.

Hypothetical question for you: Say you go into the Everglades, and you have a handheld x-ray machine. You come upon a 14 foot burmese python, and you use the machine to see that it has a couple feral cats in it's stomach. And inside the stomachs of the feral cats, you see the remains of an indigo snake and another endangered/protected animal of some sort. Would you still kill the python?

In over 200 FL pythons sampled we have only found 1 feral cat in their gut contents. Maybe they eat feral cats in the Redlands but it is a rare event in ENP. The argument that pythons may be beneficial is VERY weak.

To reply to the original poster... I wouldn't touch a burm in the park. The rangers know that it is an illegal activity (whether any of us like that or not) and they know to look for herpers.

Mike

Of course it's weak, but it's no weaker than what I've seen being used to make the argument the pythons have an overall HARMFUL effect. If those claiming there is a harmful effect can hand pick singular anecdotes (of stomach contents) as proof, then so can I to claim there is a beneficial effect.

>>In over 200 FL pythons sampled we have only found 1 feral cat in their gut contents. Maybe they eat feral cats in the Redlands but it is a rare event in ENP. The argument that pythons may be beneficial is VERY weak.
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>>To reply to the original poster... I wouldn't touch a burm in the park. The rangers know that it is an illegal activity (whether any of us like that or not) and they know to look for herpers.
>>
>>Mike

With the exception of 1 feral cat and a bunch of Rattus rattus... everything else pythons consume (in our sample of over 300 prey items from over 200 snakes) is harmful. And there's no way we can ever determine every meal of every python so the impact is larger than what we have sampled. When is the last time anyone here has seen a marsh rabbit in ENP?

Mike

In your "harmful " sample of over 300 prey items from over 200 snakes your also including alligators and other common animals. Classic data skewing.

There is not a single endangered species in the everglades that wasn't already endangered previously to the Burmese.

Florida's natural balance has not existed for decades. It wasn't pythons that destroyed the real everglades . That started in the late 1800`s and has never stopped.Take away the Burmese and what's left ...a highly altered eco system. If the numbers are anywhere near the estimates then everyone should get used to the fact that, Burmese pythons will eventually evolve along with the myriad of other changes that have occurred into a "natural part " of the new everglades.

Ive seen it said by " experts " that Burmese pythons have no natural predators here. While this might be true in a technical sense in terms of practical application ,,,,,,,,,what types of animals prey on Burmese pythons in their native land and what comparable types of these animals are found in S Florida. Id like to hear your opinion .

I'm curious why some things are never mentioned when certain party's discuss the Everglades and the pythons.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Is their a more natural predator in the ENP than the American Alligator.
Here's a hint for you FL folks.
Alligators eat ANYTHING.
Next time you're in the mood to examine stomach contents check a gator.
I'm stunned. Did someone official really say this. This is the reason I can't take any of those idiots seriously.
This has been my experience.
ALL crocodilians eat snakes.
All crocodilians react differently to snakes.
Caimans are terrified of snakes regardless of size.
They also may prefer them to almost any other meat.
P. trigonatus especially seems to like them.
Depending on size crocodiles react differently. Small crocs are wary, big crocs dinner is served.
I've never seen a gator of any size even a yearling show any fear of a snake.
As I wrote extensively on the croc forum;
The FL geniuses never seemed to figure out the gator attacked the burm.
In the famous exploding burm pic.
I know the burm ate the gator. But originally the gator attacked the burm.
Big snake 101: In defense of itself a large constrictor has basically 3 options. First biting. Python teeth won't hurt a 6 foot gator. Second, if biting doesn't work or someone is restraining their head they will constrict. This is a defensive constriction. Typically if their head is released they will release but not always. Other than feeding responses the second most common reason people are killed by their pet snake. They restrain the head and forget about the rest of the snake.
Third form of defense for a large constrictor. Is releasing their bowels. If body and head are restrained what else can a snake do.
The gator grabbed the snake. Snake bit the gator. The gator held on. The snake consticted the gator. Gator died. The snake had a perfect shaped meal. Albeit a little large.
I can assure you. If the ENP is full of Burmese pythons. Alligators are eating a bunch of them.
Danny Conner

Posted by: Danny Conner at Mon Jul 13 22:17:31 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by Danny Conner ] Share

Is their a more natural predator in the ENP than the American Alligator.
Here's a hint for you FL folks.
Alligators eat ANYTHING.
Next time you're in the mood to examine stomach contents check a gator.
I'm stunned. Did someone official really say this. This is the reason I can't take any of those idiots seriously.
This has been my experience.
ALL crocodilians eat snakes.
All crocodilians react differently to snakes.
Caimans are terrified of snakes regardless of size.
They also may prefer them to almost any other meat.
P. trigonatus especially seems to like them.
Depending on size crocodiles react differently. Small crocs are wary, big crocs dinner is served.
I've never seen a gator of any size even a yearling show any fear of a snake.
As I wrote extensively on the croc forum;
The FL geniuses never seemed to figure out the gator attacked the burm.
In the famous exploding burm pic.
I know the burm ate the gator. But originally the gator attacked the burm.
Big snake 101: In defense of itself a large constrictor has basically 3 options. First biting. Python teeth won't hurt a 6 foot gator. Second, if biting doesn't work or someone is restraining their head they will constrict. This is a defensive constriction. Typically if their head is released they will release but not always. Other than feeding responses the second most common reason people are killed by their pet snake. They restrain the head and forget about the rest of the snake.
Third form of defense for a large constrictor. Is releasing their bowels. If body and head are restrained what else can a snake do.
The gator grabbed the snake. Snake bit the gator. The gator held on. The snake consticted the gator. Gator died. The snake had a perfect shaped meal. Albeit a little large.
I can assure you. If the ENP is full of Burmese pythons. Alligators are eating a bunch of them.
Danny Conner

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Have you ever heard the Florida saying " Show me the area where pythons lay eggs and I will show you fat kingsnakes and Indigos"

I do think pythons eat gators but mostly gators eat pythons and the increasing development,run offs around Glades is the problem not the introduced animals.

The Florida panther loses more land every year . NOT ONE politician here cares .
Last time I looked pythons werent driving those bulldozers and cement mixers .

It's loss of habitat more than anything else drives threatened species to the brink. It doesn't help though when exotic animals are introduced.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables

All kinds of native critters eat Burmese Pythons. Birds of prey, Egrets, Herons, other snakes, Bobcats, etc. I personally saw a Barred Owl take a small Python off the road right in front of our car three weeks ago in the Park. It remains to be seen how injurious or even if they're injurious or not.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Interesteing, thank you.
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"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature, only to what we know of it."

You may get your wish. It seems that our wonderful Senator that wants to ban Burmese pythons is now proposing having a hunt for them in the Everglades. I have no problem with it. Might as well include feral cats on that hunting license as well.
Python Hunt proposed by Senator Nelson

Forgot to change my post title above.
Python Hunt Proposed

I haven't read the article yet but going back to a point made by another poster... having your lay person do the hunting is a truly frightening proposition!

Anything bigger than a ringneck is toast if BillyBob and the good ole boys get out there
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"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature, only to what we know of it."

I'm sure this will just as limited as the gator hunts we already have in Florida. There will be limitations on methods of taking game. There will be mandatory training and there will be Wildlife officer supervision. It will not be a free-for-all by any means. I'm sure anyone wanting to hunt them will have to fill out an application and attend training if chosen.

Will it make a huge difference? Not likely. All it will do is make it appear that something is being done while allowing the state to make some revenue off of it. If thats enough to get Bill Nelson to cool his jets, I'm all for it.

Amen to that brother, "perception is reality". If people think the problem is being cleaned up we may yet be able to own a cornsnake in the future without becoming outlaws.

We as a hobby do propogate some rare animals, which as a grassroots conservation effort is great, I'd hate to lose that chance over one or two species most people can't keep properly anyway. I'll check out that hunt. Whether I can really bring myself to euthanize a snake remains to be seen, in my head I know it's a responsible move, but it would still be very hard.
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"Nothing happens in contradiction to nature, only to what we know of it."