Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, can I please get some opinions on whether this is a terrapene ornata or luteola? He was sold to me as an ornata.

Thanks in advance,
Susan

He was sold to me as an ornata.

He? Looks awfully girly from the posted pic.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Let's see how many conflicting opinions you get on this one. I am always amazed.

I breed ornata and luteola. Your turtle is neither. The scalation on the head, and the head shape overall, is very distinct in Western box turtles.

It looks as if you have a three toed box turtle. How many toes are on the hind feet? It is possible that you may have a three toed/ornate hybrid, but I have seen pure three toed box turtles out of Arkansas that look exactly like your turtle. I also breed three toed box turtles.

Identification is best done with structural characteristics. Color and/or pattern can be very tricky, especially with an extremely variable turtle like a three toed.

I would agree with Ken. The shell shape is similar to an Ornata but the coloration and head shape looks triunguis. If it is a female Triunguis, she's a very nice looking girl. If she is a hybrid Ornata x Triunguis, she's still very nice looking and not that common.

Paul

Hi Guys,

Thanks for clearing that up for me I have always suspected that she(?) wasn't what she was supposed to be, as she looks nothing like my other Ornates.

The now 3-Toed is only about 4 inches in length, at what age or size are they visually sexable?

I have also posted some pictures of my Ornates. Would you mind helping with sexing them? I believe they are both females but welcome the input.

Thnaks again,
Susan

I should have added, like Rattay, that the turtle in the original post is very pretty.

My three toeds can have the appearance of being female up until they approach 5 inches. It is amazing...they will "go to bed" in the fall as a female and wake up in the Spring and start developing male characteristics. One clear sign to watch for is an overall coloration burst in the head and neck area. Females tend to maintain their coloration from about 3 inches to adulthood. But, males brighten considerably as they approach sexual maturity. Of course, there are frequent exceptions. I have occasionally been unsure of an individual's sex until it either mounted another or laid eggs!

The ornates are stunning! You have done a fantastic job with them. I would say that the first animal is most certainly female. The second looks a bit boyish in the face. They appear to be still growing, so keep an eye on that one for an elongating tail, an inner rear toe that curves inward, and a greening of the head. There is something about the gaze of a male ornate...their eyes look almost sinister. It could be the picture angle, but I'm sensing it in the second turtle.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

My first thought when I saw the first photo, was 3-toed looking "clown" head too, could be natural wild population occuring or captive hybridization. I also agree that the 2nd pic of the second set, while no striking visual cues to male in the tail or any real width and elongation, and can't really see if the rear inside claw is hooking inward, the eyes and shape of the front face do look a bit male though. I know exactly what you mean Ken about the males stare, red eye color aside there is something very distictive about the look on a males face, the head is more blocky and angle of the lid above the eye makes them look cross, serious, or kinda pissed off, they just look "meaner". I have also noticed that for what ever reason that the pupil is smaller in relationg to the iris in males than females, this also holds true in those two photos.
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Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com

"angle of the lid above the eye makes them look cross, serious"

Bingo, you expressed my thoughts exactly Jeff.

Now that there seems to be no doubt that the originally posted turtle is in fact a Three-Toed I will start to treat her like one, and I am sure she will look even better in the right environment! I actually have 5 Three Toeds (6 now) and can’t believe I didn’t see the resemblance. I guess I was blinded by that fact that I really wanted it to be an ornate.

I have noticed with the Ornates that the smaller one is very active, moving around the enclosure back to the burrow and then up and about again. The larger one seems content to sit in her burrow only moving to her sleeping quarters or to the feeding dish. I was curious if that might help to give me a guess of the sex as well, in the wild would the males wander more in search of females?

-Susan

Well, there is always some doubt when it is a turtle produced in a captive situation. People don't seem to separate their breeders. I once talked to a guy that kept gulf coasts and three toeds together. The babies would hatch out naturally in the enclosure. He told me, "Well, when I find 'em, I sell the big'uns as gulf coasts and the little'uns as three toeds." He then went on to explain to me that a three toed box turtle female can produce a full gulf coast and vice versa...yikes.

How many toes are on the turtle's hind feet? Did I miss that?

My turtles, regardless of sex, all have different activity levels and patterns, hiding preferences, and temperament.

Yes, she has three toes on her back feet. I keep all of my turtles individually but I was keeping her the same way I keep the Ornates and now that I think back I have always had to fill up her water more often and keep her substrate wetter to keep her skin from looking dry.

Thanks again for all of the advice I will keep an eye on the second Ornate.

-Susan

Yeah Ken, that sounds kinda lazy and irresponsible as a breeder from my perspective, but I personally am NOT a fan of hybrids, it just makes for very muddy genetics IMHO, and I keep my easterns and 3-toeds separate, but to each their own.
As far as the original turtle in the first pic now knowing it has 3 toes, it definately is more likely just a 3 toed with a ornate type looking shell pattern with is commonly naturally occuring where the ranges overlap anyway and there is some debate as to the extent of natural integration in those areas anyway, and so may or may not be integrade or hybrid either from wild breeding or captive breeding, so it may in fact just be a really pretty, high quality 3-toed that was simply misrepresented. And that turtle is really gorgeous either way no need to be treated as a misfit hybrid mutt. But again I am NOT a fan of intentional captive hybrid breeding regardless of the results, due to the confusion it can cause down the road. Just my 2 cents.
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Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com

lots of interesting stuff here. I've kept naturally occuring ornates since I was a kid (in my back yard). I love this forum. You learn lots of new stuff just reading these threads. Thanks kensopher and boxienuts.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

Vichris Variables