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hmmm....interesting

draybar Jul 12, 2009 01:33 PM

OK, let me start with a little history.
A couple of years ago I got a snake from Carol Huddleston.
This snake had known grey rat lineage and was known to be either ultra or ultramel.

At the time she didn't have an available amel to test breed him to so I took him to breed to a female creamsicle I had available.

I picked this female because she was from a pairing I did between a male creamsicle I had acquired as a rescue from a friend in Florida and a female creamsicle I purchased here.
The male creamsicle always had this slight frosting that to me suggested there might be grey rat lineage in him.

As far as I knew the male and female had no known hets so the female from their pairing had no hets I was aware of.
Anyway the female cream from this pairing was bred to the ultra/ultramel. She only laid four good eggs. When these hatched there were two amels (creams) and two ultramels so this pretty much proved the male to be ultramel.

Well, last year I didn't breed either the ultramel or the creamsicle.
This year I decided to pair them up again.

This is where it gets kind of interesting.
Now, I knew the ultramel was possibly het caramel but had no real reason to beleive the female cream was het for anything.
Well, the cream laid 15 good eggs this season.
Two of these eggs hatched this morning.
The first was no surprise...it was an amel (cream)

the second though, has me stumped.
I'm just not sure.
The eyes have a slight reflection of red, I guess from the flash, but they don't actually appear to be red.
here it is
ideas?

-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Replies (30)

draybar Jul 12, 2009 02:25 PM

>>is it possible they were both het amel and this is an ultra anery or ultra snow?
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

draybar Jul 12, 2009 04:23 PM

>>>>is it possible they were both het amel and this is an ultra anery or ultra snow?
>>-----

on second thought the eyes would basically rule out snow.
I just had an actual ultramel hatch out so that leads me back to both parents being het anery and it being an ultra anery

any ideas, thoughts, fits of laughter...anything?

I will get more pictures some time this evening
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

cochran Jul 12, 2009 05:28 PM

Jimmy,I can only look at it and go DUH! Whatever it is,it's beautiful!Let everyone know when you decide what to call it! Jeff

cherokee_reptile Jul 12, 2009 06:31 PM

Jimmy I will have to post a pic of an ultra snow for ya

Walter Smith Jul 12, 2009 04:45 PM

Jimmy,
What's up man? It's been a while.

Anyway, that looks to be an Anery Ultramel to me. I guess your next step is to breed those parents to a Snow, Anery, or het either to give you your answer, but it does appear to be an Anery Ultramel.

Walter

draybar Jul 12, 2009 04:54 PM

>>Jimmy,
>>What's up man? It's been a while.
>>
>>Anyway, that looks to be an Anery Ultramel to me. I guess your next step is to breed those parents to a Snow, Anery, or het either to give you your answer, but it does appear to be an Anery Ultramel.
>>
>>Walter

thanks Walter
I appreciate the input.
Are you going to set up at Daytona next month?
If so, good luck.
One of these days I will get down there!!
thanks again
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Walter Smith Jul 13, 2009 07:41 AM

No problem Jimmy.

Yes, for sure. I've been going since 1995 and have been a table holder since 1998.
Ya need to make it man, it's a blast !!!

Later, Walter

JYohe Jul 12, 2009 06:01 PM

where is Carol Huddleston from? .....
I know what it looks like to me....they come out of my ultramel lines all the time....and they have ruby eyes...and fade...and make opals....

.......is she near Pa or Hamburg? or anyone who goes there?....

...better...how old is the ultra/mel male....?

....
-----
....Jed....
gone but never forgotten....
sorry my buddy, .....................
June 98 -July 9,09
Jedediah's Golden Dream

JYohe Jul 12, 2009 06:09 PM

OK......I looked again ......and again....

.....never made an ultra with anery or ghost in it....

....doesn't have the lav look axactly.....thought it was off a little.......

....light....so it's an ultra anery not an ultramel anery?...

.....(in here it was said the darker ultra? lavs turned out to be the ultra not ultramels...)...still think ultra not ultramel...lighter,,,,,,,, better......etc etc

anyways...yea....cute....

LOL

.
.
.
-----
....Jed....
gone but never forgotten....
sorry my buddy, .....................
June 98 -July 9,09
Jedediah's Golden Dream

draybar Jul 12, 2009 06:59 PM

>>where is Carol Huddleston from? .....
>>I know what it looks like to me....they come out of my ultramel lines all the time....and they have ruby eyes...and fade...and make opals....
>>
>>.......is she near Pa or Hamburg? or anyone who goes there?....
>>
>>...better...how old is the ultra/mel male....?
>>
>>....
>>-----

Carol is out in California
Low Belly Reptiles
she, to me, has one of the best lines of Miamis out there. She is also one of the early ones in the Cinder projects.
I believe the ultramel is an '02 maybe '01
I also think that Tim from T & J has one of his siblings.
From what I see, and from Walter's post I would have to go with ultra anery.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

cherokee_reptile Jul 12, 2009 07:33 PM

Jimmy something I just learned this week is that there is butter in the ultramel back ground as well when the line first started.

Tom

benttoe Jul 12, 2009 09:54 PM

I would say that you have a Ultra Anery. I would think a Ultramel would not have the grayish blue eye color. But it does have the ruby iris. But I have not produce any of those morphs.
Image
-----
Jeff L.
I always seem to be waiting for something!!!

TandJ Jul 12, 2009 11:20 PM

You have an ultramel anery there...

My ultramel lines are not from the same original place as Carol's.. You don't see much frosting in the animals I produce like other certain lines...I still feel very reluctant to believe that ultra came from Grey Rat.. I am looking back to believing the originators on where these came from.. But this is another whole different story..

This is what I bred last year, just to shut some folks up about my claim that the male was indeed an ultramel anery, not some sorry ghost..

This is what hatched..

It is genetically impossible to hatch an Ultra Snow.. The ultra gene does not allow it.. You eithier going to get a snow or an ultramel anery..

TandJ Jul 12, 2009 11:36 PM

Right from the egg.. the silver blue and red iris is definantly noticable..

TandJ Jul 12, 2009 11:40 PM

Another good picture.. Wish i would not have to post so many pictures..

TandJ Jul 12, 2009 11:44 PM

From the same father, but to an non relative female amel..

draybar Jul 13, 2009 05:28 AM

>>From the same father, but to an non relative female amel..
>>
>>

that's it
ultramel anery not ultra anery?

I didn't mean to infer that you were working with the ultras/ultramels with the grey rat lineage, Tim.
For some reason I was thinking you had one of it's siblings. This was an experiment by Carol to see if the gene was carried by grey rats.
I know there was someone at The Source I used to talk to regularily that had one of it's siblings. Sorry for the confusion.
Again, I am not trying to insinuate that yours are from grey rat lines.
I just know mine is and that's why I bred it to a female cream from a pairing in which I suspected grey rat in the father's past.
But what I do know is both the father and mother are het anery, but even that is kind of blurry with the addition of ultramel.
thanks Tim, Walter and everyone else.
If you don't know, ask, someone will know.
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

TandJ Jul 14, 2009 08:52 PM

Tom Thompson I believe got the other one..

blichtenhan Jul 13, 2009 05:19 PM

Ok, ok, enough, you have convinced me!!! Actually, nice pics, and you could post them all day as far as I am concerned, I think they are really nice snakes, and your pics definitely show Jimmie's snake to be an ultramel anery in my opinion. I hatched some ultramel anery motleys this year, and they essentially look the same,,,,a really beautiful morph. Brad

benttoe Jul 13, 2009 05:57 AM

Never said it was a Ultra snow.
-----
Jeff L.
I always seem to be waiting for something!!!

TandJ Jul 13, 2009 07:36 PM

Was mentioned above..

"Jimmy I will have to post a pic of an ultra snow for ya"

That was what I was refering too.. Its impossible with the way the gene works..

DonSoderberg Jul 13, 2009 07:51 AM

As most guessed, it's an ultramel anery. Pupils are too light to be ultra. Of course, it's impossible to be a snow of any kind.

BTW, I have bred three unrelated frosted ghosts (corn X gray rat hybrids) to albino corns, and got classic ultramel results. In my opinion, the originator of this line did not misrepresent his hybrid products that gave rise to the ultra mutation.

Don
South Mountain Reptiles

TandJ Jul 13, 2009 07:45 PM

Thats an intresting find Don.. What happened to the size of the animals though.. You would think the mutant size of the grey rat would pass onward to its offspring..

I thought it was Mike P and a few others that originally found this trait in corns..

Jimmy.. I believe it was Tom Thompson that got Carol's other mutant(s)..

There is certainly a different look with the animals myself and Stephen Wagner seem to produce.. Our ultramel stock originated from the same breeder here...

Regards.. Tim of T and J

TandJ Jul 20, 2009 07:23 PM

This was posted up in another forum talking about the CSMG wrote by Chuck Pritzel..

"According to this year's Corn Snake Morph Guide, breeding tests are gradually supporting the conclusion that White Oak Phase Grey Rats (beleive these are the ones at the root of the discussion?) don't carry ultra. So although rumours have been rife for years, actual proof seems to be edging the other way now."

I am not sure what to make of what has been printed..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

DonSoderberg Jul 20, 2009 09:50 PM

I'm having trouble following the thought trail.

Tim, this is not directed at you, but I've never understood the logic of breeding trials in this realm. If I caught a cornsnake, and bred it to a totally unrelated cornsnake, and ended up with a recessively inherited mutation, I wouldn't say that all corns are het for that mutation. I can only deduce that the two I bred together are het for that mutation. I've heard others talk about trying to prove that all gray rats are (or aren't) capable of producing ultras. I always found it odd that anyone would waste their time trying this, since it makes so little sense. Why would we presume that all gray rat snakes are carriers of the ultra mutation just because Mike Shiver (formally of Mike's Motleys) said he made the first ultras with gray snows (cornsnake/gray ratsnake hybrids)? Originally, White Oak grays were locality animals. Not unlike the Okeetee locality VS Okeetee morph scenario, I talk to people all the time that tell me they bought regular grays at a reptile show and when they grew up, they were White Oaks. Hence, very white ground-colored grays are usually called White Oaks, AND you can find grays like this throughout their entire range. Hence, what will breeding any gray rat (so-called White Oak or otherwise) to an albino cornsnake prove/disprove - in the realm of the ultra mutation? I guess if breeding any gray rat to any albino corn resulted in ultramels, it would make a statement, but the absence of those results in one or two trials does not prove Mike was lying when he said he used a gray snow hybrid to make the first ultramels. It just means that the progenitor of his gray snow possessed a copy of the ultra mutation. To me, the best example of the folly of this is saying that you bred a wild Florida corn to a wild Maryland corn and got some albinos. therefore, ALL corns in Maryland and Florida are het for albino.
South Mountain Reptiles

TandJ Jul 21, 2009 11:57 AM

Its a strange claim isn't it Don..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

DonSoderberg Jul 21, 2009 12:21 PM

At first, I thought so too, but after talking to guys that speak genetics, they told me it was just as likely as breeding two corns together, or even more likely in an inter-species pairing. In other words, the argument that it's unbelievable that this could happen from just pairing a gray with a corn, doesn't hold water - in the realm of genetic mutations; partly because gray rats and corns (aka: red rats) are so closely related. Again, why would he say they're hybrids, knowing pure corns sell for more, unless it was the truth? Me, I can't think of a reason he'd lie in that unpopular and politically incorrect direction, so regardless of how we’d all prefer them to be pure corns, I'm going with the testimony of the original breeder. Having said that, I'm pleased they're still welcomed with open arms in Corndom, but I can't ignore the word of the originator, just because calling them pure corns would generate more popularity and profits. While I think it's wrong to misrepresent hybrids as pure corns, when a morph like ultra is so prevalent (and popular) in our hobby, nothing can be done about it now. I think if nDNA testing were affordable, and if someone could afford to create a proper comparison data base for all the colubrids of the U.S., we'd likely all be shocked to find out what other species are represented in our pets' DNA.
South Mountain Reptiles

TandJ Jul 21, 2009 05:31 PM

Well Don, I heard that there was two stories about the orgins.. from my best understanding, one had felt these were pure while the other said it was a grey rat cross.. The story may have changed by the time it came down my lines, but I am quite sure where I got it from, would not BS myself.. Of course, as things turned out, my opportunity to try that cross this year did not go as planned.. I know the lines of ultramels I work with and a few others, well they don't look like the frosted animals..

My trial this year, well it didn't happen.. Apparently the male was a little intimadated from the goliath female white oak..

As far as genetic testing goes, CB stock *lol*, we are more than likely to find a lot of things mixed in.. Emoryi and Cali King come to mind, amongst other things..

DonSoderberg Jul 22, 2009 10:28 AM

Well Don, I heard that there was two stories about the orgins.. from my best understanding, one had felt these were pure while the other said it was a grey rat cross.. The story may have changed by the time it came down my lines, but I am quite sure where I got it from, would not BS myself.. Of course, as things turned out, my opportunity to try that cross this year did not go as planned.. I know the lines of ultramels I work with and a few others, well they don't look like the frosted animals..

Yeah, the "second" story was added after he said he used a gray snow, and I believe it's because he took so much heat from admitting they were hybrids, he had to add that "twist" to the story. Reminds me of the reason one member of a firing squad is given a gun that shoots blanks. Nobody in the squad knows which one of them is shooting a blank, and they're all instructed to aim for the heart. Hence, there is no way to know which one did not contribute to the death, so they all walk away knowing there was a likelihood that THEY were the one shooting a blank. People telling me they are sure they got one of the ultramels from the pure snow, just because theirs have no hybrid markers, always reminds me of the firing squad thing. Premeditated or not, saying that first snake was bred to both hybrid and pure corn was a stroke of genius; infamous or not.

I’ve known quite a few breeders that “borrow” traits from alien species. They like the markings on one species, so they breed that snake to a corn one time only. From then on, they selectively breed progeny back to pure corns only, to mask the alien features but retain the one feature they borrowed from the non corn. A classic one is the leucistic Texas rat. I’ve known guys to breed those to corns, with the goal of making all white animals - tame as corns. It would only take two or three generations of selecting the best of each brood, to end up with animals that are completely devoid of obvious characteristics of the alien donor. To everyone's eyes, they are PURE corns. Of course, there will always be throw-backs, but just like most of my ultramels (and yours), there are NO obvious hybrid markers. Pour a glass of milk in a pitcher of water. You get just what you’d expect; opaque liquid. Pour that pitcher into a bathtub of water, and you barely notice the milk. Pour all that into a swimming pool, and the milk is totally invisible. It’s there, but it’s masked by the water.

My trial this year, well it didn't happen.. Apparently the male was a little intimadated from the goliath female white oak..
I have a few ultramels here that have obvious hybrid markers. I got them from a breeder who shall remain nameless. He showed me what he called SUPER HYPOS at a reptile show about nine years ago. I told him they were something very special. He told me that he didn’t even know his albino female was het for hypo until he produced these, and even said, “look at the ruby-colored eyes”. Of course, when we see this scenario now, we think ULTRAMEL. Sure enough. I bought several of those, and they’re all ultramels, but with a twist. They have very obvious hybrid markers and all have a wash of orange over them. If I told you they were ultramels het for caramel, you’d believe it; however, these are not het for caramel. When I quizzed him about their genetic origins, he ducked and dodged like a boxer. He NEVER did tell me how he made those. Where’s a lie detector when ya need it?

As far as genetic testing goes, CB stock *lol*, we are more than likely to find a lot of things mixed in.. Emoryi and Cali King come to mind, amongst other things..
I’m certain you are correct. Head markings on some of mine are the most obvious hybrid markers.

South Mountain Reptiles

xblackheart Jul 14, 2009 09:31 PM

very pretty ultra anery jimmy. Congrats on finding the hidden gene
-----
****Misty****

www.sneakyserpents.com

"Due to intense Mind fog, all thoughts have been grounded."

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