Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been getting harassed in the Heucos for the last month or so as I have posted before. Last night I got harassed by the off-duty(in his personal car), constable again. This time I went to the Border Patrol checkpoint and they are NO help! I was given a citation for driving on the shoulder of the road! The Game wardens came as well, and were VERY RUDE and inconsiderate of my rights as an American! I allowed them to search my car, and YES, i have some tubs and cups and bags, but I did NOT collect anything! As we all know, its not illegal to collect in Texas, its ONLY illegal to collect from the road or State Parks! On top of that, this game warden is trying to say that shinning cuts is attempting to collect from the cuts!! He said that to my face! What I need help with is finding out if its legal to issue traffic citations when your off-duty in your personal car? I need to find out asap! Anybody with State Trooper friends or Highway Patrol friends that could answer this question please. I need a real answer and possible a copy of the laws of the road! I am going to take legal action on this and need real help please! My number is 915-667-7968. Thanks, Shaun

Edited on July 13, 2009 at 17:58:34 by PHGinger.

Disclaimer - I'm not a lawyer and do not pretend to be one. You should seek professional advise right away.

There are at least 4 things that I think you can do regardless of regs and laws.

1. Write down every single bit of the conversation the best you can recall while it is still fresh in your mind.

2. Get a lawyer involved. Let him know you feel you've been harassed and see if he thinks there is a case.

3. Regardless if there is any harassment charges you can file against these guys or not, I'd still fight the citation. Take it to court and present your case by pleading not guilty and explaining to the judge why. Present all the facts including the fact that the citation was issued by an off duty (not sure it matters) constable (might matter). If the warden is the one that gave you the citation, did he see you driving on the shoulder? If not, is he able to give you the citation if he didn't see you drive on the shoulder based on the constables word that you did?

4. Get a stinking voice recorder or video recorder ASAP! It's been brought to my attention that you 'might' need permission to record. However, I don't think that is the case and if it were me, I'd simply inform the officer that I am recording and leave it at that. Do not give them the option, "gee officer, do you mind if I record our communications". No, I'd simply say, "sir, I'd like you to understand up front that I'll be recording our communications in an effort to protect myself, if there is anyone else with you, please allow me to advise them the same". Do not do it in secret in an effort to catch them being jerks, just let them know up front so your butt is covered regardless. Besides, it will change their attitude anyway.

And as I side note, that section of the Huecos is so small anyway, I'd would just walk those things, which I have. That way there are no chances of moving violations. When parked on the side of the road, you are going to have to run your flashers to be legal too (unless you are parked at the picnic area).

One more side note - if you were doing something illegal (driving on the side of the road), you might just take your lumps like a man and pay the citation. From this you've now learned that it is illegal to drive on the side of the road (if that is what you were doing).

Good luck and please keep us posted.
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Brad Alexander

fullsp.com

In most states it's not against the law to record a conversation as long as the intent is to be used for a defense. I'm not sure about Texas law.
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Steve W.

Were you driving on the shoulder? Sounds like a traffic ticket, not a collecting issue. Picking a lock is an attempt to burglarize - luckily for you, shining is not against the law, just a potential safety problem. His commission not only allows him to write the citation off-duty, it requires him to do so.

Look, the huecos are top shelf animals, and even law enforcement knows it. I am not saying that you were intending to collect them, but it takes an extremely disciplined individual to find a hueco, take a photo and walk away. You had the tools, on location, and probably a license. It looks bad from their perspective.

We have a right to be out there. But with that, I think it's reasonable to expect that there will always be a heightened level of skepticism and focus from law enforcement. How does the saying go, "it comes with the territory?"

Someone posted on another site about using HCU funds or resources to fight this. I disagree - if it's a traffic citation, it's a traffic citation. A particular agent's opinion is just an opinion. The HCU should focus on the only real, totally achievable solution - to get the law changed. That will make us an honest woman.

Exactly correct-we all need to take a deep breath here-and get a grip! For now we have to watch our ps and qs. Try to remember, it isn't the entire TPWD that is behind the road ban-just a couple of folks at the top with an axe to grind from the old days. The rest have their orders, and now are just doing their jobs.

Until we get this fixed, we should keep everything nice and strictly legal. Don't drive on the shoulder-park and walk instead. Obey all the traffic laws. If they have an excuse, they will write citations. They are trying to gather ammo for the next legislative fight-why make it easy for them?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

If so I thought you said you walked in the Huecos? Why are you shining cuts now? (not that it really matters). If you have private land to walk then I would highly suggest doing that.

Having cups and hooks and all that stuff in the car is not illegal but it doesnt look good.

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Sounds like we are reverting back to "LAW WEST OF THE PECOS"...

BW,

StevenX

I think you will have to pay the ticket. Driving on the shoulder is a traffic violation. I got a written warning for it 2 years ago from a sheriff on 277. Funny that I had done it for 11 years on 277 prior to that, many times right in front of a sheriff and not gotten any warnings or tickets until 2007. IMHO it's selective enforcment at the behest of TPWD but it is illegal.

When I got the warning, the sheriff did say it was ok to walk the cuts.

Also, I asked him if it was ok for me to roadcruise for snakes if I were to pull over and legally park before getting out and photographing. He said he preferred I not do that but he wouldn't go so far as to say it was illegal. My take on that is that it is not a traffic violation to do so but it might still be considered a violation of hunting from a vehicle by TPWD.

Yes, I was at Roys in May. I do have land to night hike. I have been trying the cut shinning for the first time this year.

Anyways, I know its illegal to drive on the shoulder! What im asking is if anyone knows any troopers or sheriffs that can clarify if its legal for a off duty constable in his personal vehicle to issue a citation? If I was stopped by a trooper or sheriff or constable in his patrol car, I would not have a problem with this! Since when can a off duty cop enforce the law? Especially not representing that he is a cop! This is harassment at its best to me!

And I responded that their commissions require them to enforce the law whenever they see a violation - especially a safety violation. Why would you think that it is against the law for a law enforcement officer to enforce the law when they are not on duty? The guy was in his personal vehicle, and you decided to stop, and even consented to a search - what is it exactly that you think he did that broke the law or infringed on your rights?

I did not stop for him! He tried to stop me in the Heucos by getting in front of me and slamming on his brakes! I had NO clue this was a cop until I got to the Border Patrol Checkpoint. I allowed the game wardens to search my car, not him! My question is that if a person doesnt know its a cop, IE.. lights, sirens, can that cop issue citations?

Yeah, that sounds like bad news, if it went down that way, but...

The night you went to the Border Patrol, you knew he was the constable. On another site, you mentioned a run-in with the constable, and asked for advice. Someone said you should go to the border patrol checkpoint for witnesses and support. Then you went to the border patrol the second time it happened, and they weren't very helpful. So you knew it was the constable.

This is why our battle to change the law will always be uphill.

I did not stop for him! He tried to stop me in the Heucos by getting in front of me and slamming on his brakes! I had NO clue this was a cop until I got to the Border Patrol Checkpoint. I allowed the game wardens to search my car, not him! My question is that if a person doesnt know its a cop, IE.. lights, sirens, can that cop issue citations?

Now he can always issue a citation or make an arrest as it is his duty even when he is not on the clock or in uniform. But to force your vehicle off the road is just something that is not a safe practice and it should be brought up with his department. Nothing will likely come of it as there is no accident report or injury involved, but it is a step you should take none the less.

I also have to ask, since it has been a problem with some other off duty LE stops, did it seem like he had been drinking?

Lance
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

UMM. If he's not acop he would'd have the means to write a ticket.
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Steve W.

I can't see why he has to be on duty to write a ticket. That's like saying he can't act on a burglary in progress unless he's on duty. If you did infact break the law then it's a moot point.
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Steve W.

I think you are giving the LE people too much authority. Granted he may be a off duty officer but, I am not sure that they have authority to make routine traffic stops when not in uniform or in an unmarked car. I believe that the State of Texas rules state that an officer is obligated to intervene if witnessing a felony in progress. NOT routine traffic violations. IMHO I think this guy is acting outside his aurthority and someone should ask the question of his employer.

Constables are elected, and have the authority to enforce the law, period. Do they ignore minor violations when they are on family time? Of course they do. Are they giving our buddy a hard time? Of course they are. As long as they suspect he is collecting, he's going to get extra attention, and I don't know why we would expect otherwise. Sure it's a bummer, but like I said, it comes with the territory.

In Tyler Tx., we had a case of a bad guy impersonating an officer, using some cheap flashing light in his grill to stop unsuspecting young women. I believe it was said on the news that an unmarked would never be used to stop someone.
It would be a little scary to think that Melissa should stop for any fool that pulled in front of her and tried to force her off the road, whether she had been shining cuts or not. In fact, I would think that such a case might get someone shot.

I agree 100%, but the night he went to the BP checkpoint, he knew that he was a constable, so his version needs some more crafting, wink wink. I personally would not stop either. Not because I would be scared, but because an unmarked car to me is a guilt-free car chase

Maybe that's what it'll take.
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Steve W.

If this guy has a history of doing this then I would consider it harrassment.
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Steve W.

Ok, let me clarrify a few things! I did NOT know this was a constable till I got the checkpoint first of all. I suspected it may have been, but I had no way of knowing for sure!

I had just finished shinning a cut and was moving to the next when this constable came up behind me flashing his lights and acting crazy! I wasnt sure what the deal was, so I decided to head down the mountain, but he decided to pass me in a no passing zone and slam on his brakes to stop me. At this point, I really wasnt sure if it was a cop or robber or what, so I turned around and hauled it to the checkpoint!

I know for a fact that it is illegal for a off duty cop in personal vehicle to harass anyone just cause he thinks he can in the city of EL PASO. Even undercover cops here have some indication thay are cops, and they have state city issued cars with emergency lights. Now, it is his duty to assist or engage if he sees a felony taking place, or if someone is in need of help! If what this did is legal, then why arent we all getting tickets for speeding, or running a light, or anything else from off duty cops?

I would like to talk to someone who knows a State Trooper! They have juridiction anywhere in the state, so they should know!

Since I went to the checkpoint, I have video proof of him being in personal truck!

Another thing, Since he was in personal vehicle, how could he prove I was driving on the shoulder and not just parked? If he was in his issued car, he would have me on video!

Like I said, if this was a patrol car and I knew it was a cop, I would be happy to pay the fine!

This is a clear cut case of old timer wannabee cops getting thrown a bone by this new road hunting law, and given an excuse to harass people that spend a ton of money in there small communitys just to see a few rare reptiles!!

And to the Game Warden that said ANY hunting from the road is illegal, you are very wrong! We CAN HUNT and collect as many INVERTABRATES as we want from any road or cut as long as we are on public land!! I called and asked!! The new road ban does NOT include invertabrates!! If you dont know what a invertabrate is, look it up!

I may sound rude here, but if we back down over the simplest things, we may as well roll over period!!

Well, yes, but you forgot the part where it first happened and you posted it on another site, and a member suggested you go to the border patrol checkpoint next time. And you posted "great idea!." Then, it happened again, and you posted it here. Sorry dude, you knew the second time that he was a constable. Hey, I'm on your side - I'll help you toilet paper his car while he's in the rest room one night, but I'm not going to let you blow smoke up our @sses.

I get your point, whether he knew it was LE or not is not the point, LE has guidelines to follow just as we do. What the Constable did is wrong in IMO and should not be let off the hook to conduct his version of law west of the Pecos.

I agree - but if you are going to make that case, you need to have the integrity to do so. The first night was bad enough - he didn't need to change the facts when his "run to the BP" plan backfired. That only hurts his case.

Constables work for a Judge. They are hired by the judge that presides over that area. That judge gives their constables their marching orders and tells them what they want them to do. Most of them are used for serving warrants or enforcing the rules the judge chooses.

I suspect that the judge in this area may not be aware of what has been going on with this off duty constable. It may be prudent on your part to determine which judge this officer works for and approach the judge with your questions. I had a similar situation several years ago in Val Verde County with an off duty constable who was stopping people in Langtry out of his own private vehicle using a white light in his dash board. He also had a woman with him in the vehicle. I challenged him at the time and questioned him about his authority. He cited me. I took the ticket to the office the next day and asked for the "Constable". Another guy came out and told me that he was the Constable. I related my story to him and he took my ticket saying he would take care of it. Bottom line is that the guy giving me the ticket was some sort of deputy not the Constable. He was acting on his own for whatever reason. I never saw that guy out there again. Maybe, just maybe, something like that is going on with you. Might be worth checking into.

ECT

anyone caught spotlighting from a vehicle will be cited for a traffic violation of some sort depending on the circumstances, It's not safe. There is nothing anyone can do to get you out of it. You can fight the citation, but I doubt you'd beat the rap.

anyone still spotlighting from a vehicle is a liability to our cause and in my opinion and in that regard you deserve a ticket because you are hurting all of us. So don't spotlight.

If you want to exercise your right to "look" at creatures park your vehicle off the road, turn on your flashers and walk the right of way. Then you are well within your legal rights, and you are doing so in a safe manner.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks

There may be other arguments for not spotlighting, but safety is not one of them. Absolutely no evidence exists that shows that spotlighting from far off the shoulder poses any safety risk...

Max
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Snakes to the Max

Check your e-mail. Spot-lighting is out.
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Herp Conservation Unlimited
Conservation through captive propagation
Mexicana Group Directory
Photography by Joseph E. Forks