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I was outside this evening taking pictures. This is a older Applegate female she isn't very bright but still my favorite female.

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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Nice female...and nicely done pic Michelle.
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God Bless Evolution.

Thanks Craig, you will be getting a pair off her her very soon.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

>>I was outside this evening taking pictures. This is a older Applegate female she isn't very bright but still my favorite female.

Cool ground color and reduced black....
I think it would be my favorite female thayeri if it were here....

Great looking picture too Michelle...
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Thank you John, she throws very reduced babies too.
She has a few offspring on here, Adam has one and Jim has a pair of her babies.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Michelle,

Funny that you should mention them as the female "posed" for a photo this past weekend...Usually, she's like her brother and thinks the camera is food...Which makes it difficult to photograph them when they are right at the lens...Ha! Ha!

Unfortunately, she's starting to go into the blue...Which is a good thing but, she's not her usual "bright" self...You've just got to get the photo when it's available...NATURALLY...Ha! Ha!

She has a very scattered "mottled" (random spots, flecks, etc) pattern on her ventral scales which is a pale shade of orange...The color black is absent on her ventral scales...

Later,
Jim.

PS: Aubrey, I experimented with the "IMG" thing...Looks like a have some work to do with it as this "IMG" is not as clear as the photo...Thanks for the tip!

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CSRAJim

She is a beautiful girl. Thank you for posting the new photo.
How is the male doing? is he keeping the yellow?
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Michelle,

He's doing just fine but he's hard to photograph as he's right at the top of his enclosure when you open it...As it's FEEDING TIME when the top opens...NATURALLY! Ha! Ha!

I'm not sure how he'll eventually turn out but right now, he's kind of a brown-gold-yellow with a slight "greenish" hue...So, I have no idea...He also has the "mottled" ventral scale pattern without black on the flecks/specks either like his sister...His ventral color is a pale-off yellow...

He eats like a pig!

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Heres Roger at about a year old

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POSITIVE THOUGHTS, POSITIVE RESULTS

Here is the Lemeke male and a female I picked up awhile back.

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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

>>Here is the Lemeke male and a female I picked up awhile back.

Is the bottom one the male?
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

No bottom one is female. Top is male
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

>>No bottom one is female. Top is male.

Wow....Michelle that is one great looking female.....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Thank you John, she will breed next season.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Michelle, she looks great! Does she have a rose colored belly?
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Todd Hughes

Thank you Todd,
Yep she has a rose belly, I will post a pic of it for you.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

I'd appreciate that Michelle! Again beautiful snake!
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Todd Hughes

She is pretty special.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Its amazing how dark she is until you flip her over.

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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Her belly is so bright... and brings out the red in her bands...Such a stunning girl

Thank you Meg, for such nice compliments.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Michelle,

Love that deep brick-red color...A color not often seen on Leonis specimens...Usually it has "orange" in it. Truely rare & I'm VERY happy to have her here...Thanks.

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

I will be looking for a few good ones like her next year!
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Todd Hughes

Let me know if you are looking for something specific, I usually send out photo's and by the time everyone I know has got what they want then I post the rest.
I have a good many old bloolines.
The old school looking ones tend to my favorite.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

I like the rose colored animals, let me know if something similar to your female pops up, I really like the old school looks as well!
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Todd Hughes

Sha may not be bright, but she still has a nice look to her. Looks like she is trying to find her reflection in that thingamajig.
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Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

>>Sha may not be bright, but she still has a nice look to her. Looks like she is trying to find her reflection in that thingamajig.

So that's what that was...I couldn't spell thingamajig.....LOL
I thought it was a thingamabob or doohicki....or....Whatchamacallit..

You know what's real funny....Spell check only caught doohicki.....thingamajig, thingamabob and whatchamacallit are all spelled correctly.....Too funny!
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Thank you Aubrey,
To me she has that earthy look, I guess that is what I love about her. She was actually looking into a glass of sweet tea...lol.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

LOL...well glad that mystery is solved about the "whatchamacallit" in the pic-now I can get some sleep tonight... Great pic Michelle .. I love the reduced black and the subtle but very rich earth tones....both in the background and her markings. beautiful eyes too.. would love to see pics of her rosy belly and her hatchlings... Thanks for your comments on Jasper...

Thank you Meg, here are a few of her offspring,from a couple of years ago.

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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Very nice...I love the head pattern on the last one...I am such a sucker for a nice head pattern... but they are all beautiful.. Is she having babies this year?

I hope so, her sister has already laid and has babies incubating now but she hasn't laid yet.
I will post pic's of her sister she is even more reduced.
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Michelle,

Here are my pair from that 2007 Applegate clutch...

The female is the first photo...This is the same female that I posted a photo of earlier...

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

Lordy, Jim, nice pinners is an understatement!
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Todd Hughes

Todd,

Thanks man...Here are some more "pin-band" photos...

2005 female (TF05-021) - From Serpentdan, F1-DV(M) x Vivid(F)

2006 female (TF06-131) - From Larry Briggs, F1-Tracy Thompson(M) x Vivid(F)

2006 male (TM06-022) - From Serpentdan, F2-DV(both M x F)

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

Todd,

A couple more "pin-bands"...

2007 female (TF07-042) - From Jonel, F1-Baubel(M) x Hansen(F)

2007 female (TF07-161) - From Michelle, F2-Applegate (both M x F)

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

Great looking "Pinners" Jim....
Some are quite nice IMO...
Others...Not Pinners in my book, but.....I don't know where my book is from....LOL
All REAL NICE thayeri though....

After you breed a line for generations you'll never get a phenotype resembling an F1 generation.....Similar yes.....but too many genes taking place at once.....
We should be happy with what we are working with....F6 generations or better.....(Shannon just displayed this with his Ruthies) Alleles are aligning and neonates should looking nothing like "wild Type", but when they do....They are awesome for sure....We are in the business of selective propagation not natural selection......
Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

>>Great looking "Pinners" Jim....Some are quite nice IMO...

Thanks man…

>>Others...Not Pinners in my book, but.....I don't know where my book is from...LOL…All REAL NICE thayeri though....

Again, thanks. Regarding “Not Pinners in your book”, well they are closer to being a “pin-band” than the other generally accepted band phenotypes IMO. So, I don’t know where my book is either. That’s just the best I could come with for them…They certainly are not “key-hole banded” or “broad & double saddle split banded” either…

>>After you breed a line for generations you'll never get a phenotype resembling an F1 generation...Similar yes...but too many genes taking place at once...

Correspondence with Tim Gebhard suggests the same but, on occasion, the animals throw our rule book out the window…The “broad double saddle split” phenotype virtually disappeared from captivity with out-crossing (as breeders selectively breed for color-orange, peach, etc without regard for preservation in captivity) but, it obviously remained as “relic” genetic phenotype and when paired (by accident-box of chocolate syndrome), reveals itself once again…The first photos that I saw of this phenotype was in the trio photo from the specimens collected by Hobart Smith (1944) and despite the out-crossing, is still with us in captivity…

>>We should be happy with what we are working with...F6 generations or better...(Shannon just displayed this with his Ruthies). Alleles are aligning and neonates should looking nothing like "wild Type", but when they do...They are awesome for sure...We are in the business of selective propagation not natural selection...

I’m not in the “business” of selective propagation and my work will be to limit out-crossing to work on the genetic potential of the genetic line itself with a core set of adults…With all of the “out-crossing” that has already been done, nobody really knows the genetic potential of each pair of adults because they are constantly “inter-mixed”…If you are looking for a “box of chocolates”, then out-crossing is the way to go but, if you are trying to find the genetic potential of a core set of adults, then out-crossing is not your cup-of-tea. In other words, it’s about preservation of what was and not trying to create the next “morph” with me.

An example of this is with the Brooksi…Have you really tried to find a normal, un-morphed, un-heterozygous Brooksi with provenance lately (I’m talking about Brooks Canal phenotypes and not the other locales)? What I used to remember from the early specimens from Bartlett, May, Love’s, Medac (Lemke), etc, just ain’t “out there” anymore…Everybody went “morph” crazy and what was (all of their work) has virtually disappeared from captivity…

I say this for a reason, the Brooks Canal area is now encompassed within the Everglades National Park and this makes acquiring new genetics from this locale virtually impossible…Now throw in CITES and even more specimens are (and will be) “removed” from captivity…

In short, I’m trying to “preserve” what was rather than “create” the next new…No worries man, I’m very happy with what I’m working with and with the thayeri, it’s a big “box-of-chocolates” for each of us…Could this “philosophy” be a dead end? Maybe but, there are only a few (and I mean very few) folks out-there that have maintained their original specimens over the years…There’s one in particular that with very (and I mean very) minimal influx for almost 3 decades has maintained a stable collection of specimens (and a lot us have acquired specimens from him over the years-me included)…I guess that’s part of what he means when he says he’s “out of the mainstream”…

This is nothing more than my philosophy about what I’m going to work on with my collection & my opinion…

Later,
Jim.

PS: My terminology regarding “F” generation is as follows, F1 means an out-cross and F2 means a sibling breeding for my work…I’m working on patterns (dorsal & ventral) and genetic lines rather than colors, aberrancy, etc…

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CSRAJim

Thanks Jim for sharing some of your project purposes...

It is still selective propagation though....LOL
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

>>Thanks Jim for sharing some of your project purposes...

No problem…

>>It is still selective propagation though....LOL

The thayeri box-of-chocolates is big enough for both of us to work on our breeding projects…

For you it’s selective propagation…

For me it’s line genetics based on similar phenotypes and genetic preservation…

We’ll have to agree to disagree and let it go at that…No worries…

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

Natural selection is not taking place in our little projects in our snake rooms....Nor yours...No matter how 'pure' your strain is it is still selective propagation due to the fact that our (and your) snakes do not have the choice as to what they are paired up with. You as a keeper are selecting which pairs to pair up...Mind you this...you do have a great bloodline that I am aware of and you are working with a strain that has been preserved but they are not wild anymore and cannot choose for themselves. You as a keeper offer them choices...that is all you can do to have successful husbandry....
Selective propagation is not a term used just to produce a "box of chocolates" it is what every snake keeper is doing....Our captive snakes have no choice (no natural selection)...

So...We can agree to disagree but what I stated above is the truth in my honest opinion.....LOL

And Jim...
I enjoy the fact that you are working with such a project and I would love to see the products of your work.

Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

Maybe..."Natural Selection" does occur in our snake rooms...

As soon as the sperm is introduced into the female, the process of natural selection continues...

And, thanks...

Later,
Jim
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CSRAJim

>>As soon as the sperm is introduced into the female, the process of natural selection continues...

And who chose that female? The male snake?....Nope....The snake keeper did....
But I do see your point Jim and I wish more folks were working with such integrity as you are....
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

I see your point as well (and agree with you) within the framework of what we have to work with (all animals are CB-without the possibility of working with collecting specimens)…

On the other hand, in captivity, the process of natural selection “continues” with the exchange of DNA...The most viable sperm creates a fertilized egg…We have nothing to do with that…And thus, in captivity, natural selection DOES occur…

With my core collection, it's about preservation of their genetics in captivity and not about trying to create the next "rad-morph"...There's enough of that already...

Thanks man & good discussion…Sincerely appreciated…

Later,
Jim.

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CSRAJim

Thanks Jim for this discussion as well....
I think this is what this forum is about...Different views and discussions.....Oh....and to post pics and show off too....

Regards,
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John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John.

Roger that...

Except that my photography ain't that great! Ha! Ha!

Later,
Jim.
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CSRAJim

That gal can do it all, has the looks, and I bet has the guys fighting each other for a date! Total winner!
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Todd Hughes

Thank you Todd,
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Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.