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These are the animals I got from Bob Haase. He orginally claimed to have caught them himself on back to back nights on top of the Nine Mile Hill cuts, North of Sanderson. He now claims they were wildcaught by Dave Doherty and Gerry Salmon (probably around ten years ago I am guessing). So far the only person who has any babies from me out of this pair is Gerold Merker; I kept the rest because they are absolutely amazing. Any help confirming the locale on these guys would be greatly appreciated. The first picture is the male, approximately 44"

Here is the female, approximately 38"

Dave,

You misread my post. The male you have is a 1996 f1 from David Doherty breeding his w/c female to Gerry Salmon's w/c male, both of which I understood to be from the top of the hill. The female you have is from the same w/c breeding in 1998. This generation is the one that Ric Blair and others obtained from David, to the best of my recollection. The male was the pick of the year, the female was the left over from her year. David's wild female died after producing numerous offspring a few years. These were all exceptional and highly variable, as can be seen in some of those Ric had on his webpage. You can contact David for further verification of this, I presume he will remember what he produced from thos wild snakes.

As already stated, you have my apologies for my deliberate misrepresentation of having captured the snakes. It would have just as easy to have told you at the time you got them from me, but I did not and will always regret this whole mess I have created for myself and others. The snakes are what they are to the best of my knowledge. I would not have had them in the first place had it not been for that. If you need to know anything else, feel free to ask.

Bob

Bob,

I appreciate you coming clean on the 9 milers. You essentially gave them to me for nothing in that trade deal, so there is no way I can be mad at you. But you're right, I wouldn't have been less excited to get them if I knew Doherty produced them, they are awesome snakes.

It does lead me to question the other kings of yours that I bred and have now returned. Are they really F1's from animals collected a day a part from under the same rock? It doesn't matter so much as long as you can confirm that the stock is from the same area.

Dave, I would say, from what I've heard, that there is a fair amount of certainty regarding those snakes, a day a part, from under that rock. I wouldn't worry too much about them.
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Brad Alexander

fullsp.com

Just curious, none of my business really but the kings you guys are referring to that were collected under the same rock, surely wern't alterna were they?? That would have to be a collecting record for alterna if so. BA

NT

Yes Dave, they are. The male is almost 18 years old now. The poor female died this spring at while with a friend. From what I understand, she had some reproductive problems that may be attributable to retained eggs from a previous reproductive cycle. The male remains alive and will be in captivity 18 years at the end of next month. These animals seem to be very long lived, at least in captivity and probably in the wild as well. How they were found was complete blind luck and would be difficult to ever repeat, but it does support the notion that taking the time and effort to replace surface rocks or loose flakes very carefully leads to reduced disturbance and a greater possibility of rapid reuse by other snakes in the immediate area. I know that you already know this and am mentioning it for general information. I'm saddened that the female has passed and have no idea what to do with her widowed mate.

I know for a fact that the female DID NOT retain any eggs the two years I bred her. I am very sorry to hear of her demise. I should breed her babies next year and would be happy to give you a female if you didn't keep any out of your half of the two clutches I produced.

Unless I'm mistaken, he is saying those are F1's produced from WC...

"...(the nine mile snakes that Dave Long is questioning are Doherty w/c female x Gerry Salmon w/c male, which I believed to be correct)..."

n/p

Here's Dave Doherty's female... WC in 1991

Here are a few pics of Gerry Salmon's male:

Dave acquired Gerry's male not too long after Gerry found it and bred them for a number of years.

Bob, (hope you dont mind if I call you Bob)
Thanks for the note to Lance and I. I appreciate you stepping up to admit the truth. No need to worry about reimbursing funds or anything like that. The animals were from the locality that was claimed. I am fine with that. Dont give up your hobby on this account. I dont think anyone really gets out of Alterna (in my opinion). Once it is in your blood, it is there to stay...

BW,

StevenX

I was told that all the sandersons that Ric Blair had from Doherty (including the anery stuff) where from a 9x9 breeding but still considered sandrsons.I didn't really believe it for a few years then the whole hueco/x-mas thing and the whole "micropholis" mess came about and its hard to say what they really are.
I passed on getting any of that line from Ric a couple years back for that very reason.

Anyway, nice looking snakes Dave.

L8r
Shannon

p.s. I have no froop either way and I am not going to drag people's name into this so don't even ask cause it won't happen.I am just saying what I had heard and I have to tend to believe it now after seeing other very similiar things happen.
Maybe one was found on a bridge eating a lizard.LOL.....

in Mexico over the past week but hopefully he'll chime in on this once he is settled back in. Regardless, they are really nice looking snakes.
Nathan

I spoke to Dave today and told him about this thread and I believe when he settles back in from his trip he will clear some of this up. He told me about the female and what was bred but I don't want to be the middle man and screw something up. Chris

Thanks Chris, I'll be looking froward to hearing from Dave when he gets back. Hopefully Shannon is wrong about the East X North deal, otherwise I'll be having a fire sale on those snakes!

I`ll try to shed alittle light on this thread. I cannot confirm the specific lineage of the original 2 pictures that were posted because I did not produce them. Evidently, Bob produced them and they are probably descendants from animals that I once worked with in the early to mid 90`s. I collected one female on the North (9 mile) cut in Sanderson around 1990-91. The picture that Damon posted is the correct animal. Because I could not obtain a 9 mile mate for her, I used a Hwy 90 (5 mile east of Sanderson) male that John Hollister caught to produce a couple clutches in the early 90`s. Around 1994, I obtained the 9 mile male that Gerry Salmon collected (the one Damon posted). I also obtained another 9 mile female (wc by Joe Forks) in the mid 90s. I then had 1.2 wild caughts and did produce a few clutches (probably 15-20 babies) from this trio in the mid 90s. I can`t remember who ended up with which animals, but everyone knew that the early 90s animals were not pure 9 milers. Two of the three wild caughts died around 1997, and I haven`t produced a 9 mile Sanderson since then.
Hope this helps,
David Doherty

in your recollection, Dave. With all due respect intended to you, I don't think you remember the where and when with these snakes. I got the male depicted in Dave's photo as a hatchling. I was beside myself over it when you described it as 'breathtaking', and was amazed when I received in 1996. I understood it to be from your w/c female x Jerry's male. In 1998, at the ETHS show I came by your room. You let me pick some hatchlings that I understood were from the same pairing of your female and Jerry's male. Ric Blair was there, too. You let me take the pick of the available hatchlings. Because I had the male already, you generously allowed me to select two females. One was a ornate blairi morph and the other an alterna morph similar to your w/c female in pattern. Many people there saw them and were amazed by what spectacular colors and patterns they had. The next month in October 1998 I saw you at the IRBA show in San Diego. You had with you the one remaining female hatchling that is depicted as an adult in Dave Long's photo. You offered to give her to me, but I preferred to compensate you the very modest sum of $50 despite your generous offer. I know that you have produced and sold many, many hatchlings over time and I do not expect that you could possibly remember who got what with all of them after this many years have passed. I know that I did not hatch those snakes. I did get them from you. I remember it like it was just last week. Does any of this jangle your memory any further?

Kind regards,
Bob

Bob, Your memory is very good. We`re essentially saying the same thing - I think. Did you relinquish the babies that you got from me to Dave L? If so, then I did produce them. I lost track of them after you acquired them from me. I don`t recall the specific babies that you got from me, but by the mid 90s, I was no longer using the Hollister male (Hwy 90) and only using the Gerry Salmon 9 mile male. I only used the Hollister male for a couple years (early 90s) because that was the best that I could do w/o a 9 mile male in the collection (they weren`t easy to come by back then). I honstly can`t remember if my last year of production with this group was 1997 or 1998. I thought it was 1997, but I could be off by a year.
David

Yes they are Dave. We are now on the same page. 1998 was the last year for those spectacular young you produced, and it was very generous of you to give me not only the pick of them, but also a very reasonable price of $150 each for such quality animals, not to mention the additional female that was in question until now. You have always done right by me and everyone else that I know of, and to this day it is still appreciated on my part. Also--I remember the Hollister male very well. Recall that you let me keep him for a year, basically just to goon on? I had a E Sanderson female at the time that I intended to breed him with, but it never happened because she was a finicky feeder. I sent him back the following summer. Thanks for responding, you have been a great help. I hope that you and your family are are doing great. Take care,
Bob

Bob, I`m glad that our memories are consistent. After many years, things do get alittle foggy, at least for me! Thanks and take care.
David