Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I dont know about other folks but I am beyond confused on some of these threads about which snake came from whom and which one produced this thing which is not really 100 percent locality.

We need a true system, for clarification and naming that everyone can agree upon and understand. We need it to be simple and allow others to adopt it. It needs to be fair so that folks who are not in the middle of Alterna country do not feel left out. Whether you purchase snakes from Brad, Robert or anyone else you should know exactly what you are getting.

All I know is who I see out west when we make our annual journey. This doesn't mean that those folks are 100 percent honest. I would bet my house that in years past people have purchased Alterna while out west, went home, and gave the song and dance that they caught it... or... They brought snakes with them and then claim they caught them (while it was still legal) from whatever location.

I value those folks who are honest. A buddy this year told me he had been out over 15 days and had not observed much. He could have lied, but he didn't. Instead he just kept trucking along, enjoying Texas and her roadside sanctuaries.

In closing it sounds like we have several battles to wage this year. To get laws changed and to work on our locality system.

I think in times like these we look to our senior enthusiasts with the most experience for guidance...

I am open for thoughts and Ideas.

BW,

StevenX

The corn snake folks have a registry. Maybe we should contact Kathy Love to see if we can leverage their code, or be included in what they've already built. If you guys think that's a good idea, and I know her and can approach her if you like.

Something to that end has to be done, because as you can see, all it takes is a single post that can throw a perfectly reputable breeder's integrity into question. If you have an association or registry, there will always be a single, central source.

My 0.02

I was personally involved in one of these mix ups last year. I had acquired an alterna from Dan Johnson as a hatchling. We had a misunderstanding on its locality which didn`t surface until a few year`s later. Fortunately, Dan had maintained his website which documented all of his offspring and their parents going back to original founder animals. We were able to locate the animal in question from its hatchling photo and resolve its true locality. Ideally, the mix up never would have occurred, but at least we could trace the animal to its origin and correct it. A website like Dan`s would be great, but probably a ton of work especially if it was to include many localities from many different sources. Maybe a fee system for use (very nominal of course) could provoke some aspiring entrepreneur to consider this.
David Dherty

Here's what I am talking about, hope it doesn't break the TOS - won't hurt my feelings if it gets trashed:

http://www.herpregistry.com/

Looks like they would like to do king snakes. I'm an IT guy, if we want to do our own, I have a server and can get something like this going. If buyers/consumers require that snakes are registered, it would catch on easily - the big poo-poo of the whole idea is getting historical snakes imported/verified. But if we started using something like this sooner rather than later, historical pain can be minimized.

The corn snake Registry has been around a few years now but believe me it has it flaws.At the end of the day it still comes down to trust or just catch it yourself.
I have dumped many alterna the past five years "all as generics" cause I just couldn't verify and or trust the "locale" of the animal.
L8r Shannon

At the same time, you have the Recommended Breeders list, you have Joe and you have this forum, which all worked pretty well (more or less) to get to the truth, although I had to put a dying horse through a pretty good beating. The drill down has to be thorough.

Robert

NICE alterna!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Not only would it be difficult to hold one standard of providence for all the current captive bred stock. But it would still depend completely on the keeper to keep accurate records and not get things mixed up for one reason or another. To be honest I see many reasons that this would not be easy at all and one of them being current regulations on herps in TX.

Right now the system is built on reputation and trust and in a small community such as ours it probably works just as well as a database would.

To be honest the only way I see such a system being worth much would be to wait until after it is legal to herp for alterna the old fasioned way and then start a registry of all wc stock from then on. Anything before that date can be locality but not registered.

As it is now the registry would only be as good as the data you started with.

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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

The problem is that the farther the animals are removed from WC the harder to trace. Then again if we dont get the laws changed they will all eventually be generics...

Which is exactly why a registry is needed. As you can see by the replies, it would be hard to have something to be all things to all people. I have a catahoula, and it's the same problem. UKC wants to recognize the breed, but all the old schoolers push back. I think you are just going to have to either get a registry or continue the trust model. If not completely accurate, at least it makes for interesting times

IMHO the real issue here is integrity and whether or not anyone believes the individuals involved. That is not something that anyone should take lightly. For the most part I believe that we all want to believe, right? But, unfortunately there are those that will intentionally try to deceive for whatever reason. Those are the real cause of this continuing dilemma. The thought of a registry is a little bit ludicrous to me. If one is intentionally trying to deceive us about their critters, a registry may be a way for them to do just that. We all know that two different animals from two different locales may look alike and when bred may make odd looking animals. Well, saying and documenting them in a registry does not make them any less disjointed but may convince some to believe that because it is in the registry, it must be good. The registry will only be as good as those that maintain it or add information to it. Do not get me wrong, I am in no way insinuating that the situations that brought this to a head are intentional but, this has been going on since the inception of locality breeding was brought into the "alterna" hobby. Bottom line is that we do have individuals that have experience (in the field, breeding, and geniology) that can add to the checks and balances of our hobby. I for one will not believe that because the critter is in the "registry" it is true. I will use all the resources available to make my decisions. IMHO

ECT

a registry is any better than the word of the person registering them is if it is backed up with DNA as is done with Quarter Horses and I think will soon be done with dogs.
Later
Rick

np

I tend to agree that a registry might resolve some issues, but potentially introduces new problems. I doubt that we're going to improve on the current system, imperfect as it is. There will always be a small number of people who misrepresent animals or who are erratic record keepers. But there are many others who have demonstrated a combination of integrity and detailed attention to record-keeping...for those of us that find such matters important.

BH

SierraHerps.com

I bred alterna for the first time this year, and I ended up breeding non-locality snakes because I didn't have access to a locality pair. I tried to find a locality male, but couldn't.
But I find myself asking "what's the point of locality breeding?"
Are we planning on releasing snakes back into the wild?

Most people who breed "locality" animals are really breeding for color pattern as much as locality.

For example, if you have 2.1 from a "locality" and your female is a screamer and you have a screamer male and a dog ugly male, do you choose the dog ugly male because he came from the same cut but the screamer male came from 0.1 miles down the road?
Most people don't, inidicating that locality isn't the primary issue here.

And if a locality represents a particular phenotype (or amount of variability), why aren't we just breeding the snakes that have the best examples of that phenotype regardless of locality of origin.
The benefit might be reduction in inbreeding of poorly collected localities (that phrase "poorly collected" bothers me a little).

Then there is the issue of what is a locality. Particularly in the eastern parts of the range, the habitat is largely continuous over large expanses. Why is 3.1 miles W of some sign a locality? The snakes certainly don't care. And how far do wandering male alterna travel in search of mates? I doubt they travel down the roads when searching anyway.

Strangely the boundaries of a "locality" in the hobby seem inversely proportional to the number of snakes from that locality in the captive population. For some places a "locality" is a specific roadcut, for others places it is a mountain range.

I know of a reputable alterna breeder whom I respect that was inquiring about getting a snake on breeding loan to match up with a snake in their possession. It was as close to their snake's locality as was available at the time. But it was from over 30 miles away as the crow flies. Is that locality matched enough? Thirty miles might as well be 300 as far as I can understand.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against locality breeding, I'm just not sure what the long term goal is. And when locality becomes so important that people question each other's veracity, I really start to wonder what the value to captive alterna population or alterna breeders really is.

If you create a registry (which I don't think is a bad idea in itself), who defines what a locality's boundaries are?

Honestly curious.

Chris
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Alterna from different locations look unique. This probably holds true for lots of different snakes...
I think most of us "hardcore" enthusiasts are attracted to locality alterna. It's like "Tradition" or something.

I think we need something more than word of mouth to verify locality. This is just my .02

I wish we had a vote button or something. A ballot system or something.

Vote
a> Leave sytem unchanged
b> Database system
c> Dont Care
d> Other (maybe another idea)

StevenX

Word of mouth is about as good as you can get for the most part. How can it be done any other way?
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Steve W.

Hi Steve,
As a old-time and "hardcore" locality alterna hunter/keeper, I am on board with Steve W, Timaeus & others who state that it really boils down to reputation and trust, when it comes to acquiring cb alterna that are from where they are stated to have been from. You either have to simply really know the person well, ask fellow trust-worthy alterna folks their opinions or references in regard to whom you are getting cb snakes from or ultimately,like myself, spend 25+ years finding the snakes yourself and with friends and family, then, you KNOW what you have, guaranteed.....John F.

You said it best John. I've always felt that the snake's locality is only as reliable as the owner.

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Steve W.

It is a hobby that we enjoy and locality data adds to it in some way for many of us.

No expectations to re-stock wild populations.

We know that we drive the look by breeding animals that please us, after all you will not find many black gap animals that look like the typical deli cup version (my extreme example).

It is just a hobby and locality data adds some depth and challenge to it for me.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

It might be a little bit of an understatement to say this is just a hobby. I will grant you that some might say so but, there are others that this is a life long obsession. Many have turned that obsession into a "hobby" that pays for itself or even makes a little proffit. Hence the concern about lineage of the specie. I know in some biological fields people get PhD's and make whole careers out of studying one thing. For example I knew an entomologist while I was in the Army that studied sand flies from the Uvalde area. He was smart as could be about that (PhD) but, could not tell you where to find a kissing bug. I guess the point I am making is that some people are purest. Others just want to be able to say they have the critter and can breed them. Some want the "different", so they experiment (hybrids), some are happy as a pig in slop to just catch one alterna, period. If you (anyone) is/are not interested in trying to keep a locality type breeding (for whatever reason) that is ok, just do not MISINTERPET what you (anyone) is/are doing. The least a person can do is respect the process and be honest. That way no one's integrity is questioned and no feelings get hurt.

I think your post expresses what I was thinking more than my own.

Thanks,

StevenX

If you (anyone) is/are not interested in trying to keep a locality type breeding (for whatever reason) that is ok, just do not MISINTERPET what you (anyone) is/are doing. The least a person can do is respect the process and be honest.

I'm not implying anything otherwise, I'm just curious what that "whatever reason" is. That's what my post is asking.

For people who care about locality, why does it matter for you?
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Theoretically, locality animals (especially wc, or F1's) should be appreciated and valued more now than previously. You may be able to observe an alterna in a specific locale, but you cannot legally obtain that animal. The best you can legally hope to do, is to acquire someone's pre-ban wc (good luck), or offspring offered by a trustworthy breeder.

I believe the burden is on the buyer to research breeders before purchasing, and to request all the relevant information needed to reasonably assure that the animal is well represented.

Locality breeding imo, has two branches. One branch, would be one followed by purists, seeking to accurately depict the possible diversity in a given locale. The second branch, would be one where a locality "morph" would be a more accurate description. A visually desirable trait, or group of traits, is at the root of the breeding project, and the resulting offspring are labeled "locality" simply because of their pedigree. There are several examples of this, and I would suggest that if the locality is included in the description, it should be done in a manner such as; locality, developing breeder's name, morph characteristics (pin-stripe, speckled, patternless, etc.).

This is, largely a breeder issue, as I would imagine there is a large percentage of the potential customers who have little concern for locality purity over visual appeal. The locality information is just a label they associate with the animal ( " I have a pretty Black Gap" ), rather than feeling a real appreciation for the environment it evolved in, or the possible rarity of an animal from that locale. I will use my own Peruvian Red Tailed Boa as an example of this, I could care less for the locale, I love how it looks. When someone comments on the boa, I will say "Yes, it's Peruvian...", merely relaying information I was given, I could just as well say "It's a such and such morph...", and not care one way or the other. Appreciation of environment and scarcity are things that those of us who have collected (or attempted to) can appreciate, and the reason why locale purity is important to me, personally.

I don't think a registry fixes all of the problems, but it could be a tool, developed with guidelines established by a panel, that begins to get the individuals who are interested in locality breeding to adhere to guidelines, could be used to distinguish locality examples from locality "morphs", and could set locality classification levels based on radius measurements.

I know this post has jumped around a bit, just trying to hit on some of the questions posed.

"Locality breeding imo, has two branches. One branch, would be one followed by purists, seeking to accurately depict the possible diversity in a given locale. The second branch, would be one where a locality "morph" would be a more accurate description. A visually desirable trait, or group of traits, is at the root of the breeding project, and the resulting offspring are labeled "locality" simply because of their pedigree. There are several examples of this, and I would suggest that if the locality is included in the description, it should be done in a manner such as; locality, developing breeder's name, morph characteristics (pin-stripe, speckled, patternless, etc.).
"

Awesome!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

...because I know very little about locality breeding and breeding snakes at all.

However, I think I understand the locality thing from a genetic point of view. Example: In NW MO there is a locality where an albino red milk snake was once found. Now the importance of keeping true locality animals from this particular "spot" (=a row of hills where genes can be exchanged, but where the albino gene probably still remains) reaches into a realm beyond just the superifically aestethic. We MUST keep these animals pure to the locality if we want to increase the odds of producing amel offspring.

In the same sense, I would prefer to keep or breed alterna from the same locality just in case there's a wild type morphological variation...

Just my .02$...

Maybe, but there is a large constituent here that isn't interested in morphs beyond the simple alterna/blair morph. I just think it's really cool (very unscientific) that I can trace one of my snakes to a particular hill in Texas (Pepper's), or to a road, like Boy Scout Road. To think that these relatives are displaced and separated by the march of time, and are distinctly variable, it is just terribly interesting. But that's the history allure, not what's new, or albino, pied, striped. On it's own merit, not a fad, the GBK is the most interesting snake in the world. I pray to God they do not commercially become a fad, morphed to hell, etc. I like them as they are, the coolest damn snakes on the planet...

Richard

They are the coolest snakes on the planet. No doubt about that.
I am not a big fan of Albinos and frappuccino phases and all that mess. I like the straight up regular GBKs. I dont care if it is dark or lite. Lots of orange or very little. Most folks will say "I dont think Steve has ever seen a GBK that he doesnt like".

My collecting buddy Lance thinks it would be neat to get an Albino. I guess it would be ok... Think I would rather observer a black and orange/red Xmas or BG.

Take Care,

StevenX

The only exception to my rule would be a leucistic - that would be a damn fine GBK.

They are generic, but here is your wish...

Like the leucistics that Bauble has?

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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

WOW! Bathe it and bring it to me, muah ha ha ha!!!

Breeding true to locality would be the most effective means of revealing hidden morphs but I'm not sure that morph production is what its about for most breeders. At its best locality breeding is a way to avoid unintentional hybridization by crossing populations that in the wild might otherwise be reproductively isolated.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Thanks for your response Tony.

I used an amel example, but the same can be said of regular but screamer snakes. Keep the genetics isolated by breeding locality snakes and any screamers you get are purely representitive from that locality. Locality breeding isolates the location and so the likelihood of producing prototype screamers from each locality (=representitive) goes up. Or maybe not, but at least when the screamers do pop up they can be selectively bred to produce nice animals (obviously).

I think the fact that I used amels in my example was a distraction, the main point is to isolate the potential outcomes such as color variations and screamer individuals. Better?

Yes I agree completely.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

"I'm not against locality breeding, I'm just not sure what the long term goal is. And when locality becomes so important that people question each other's veracity, I really start to wonder what the value to captive alterna population or alterna breeders really is."

My sentiments exactly! For me locality of an animal only tells me what phenotype I might expect from it or its offspring. I can determin that from locality crosses as much as locality pures.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

For some, the enjoyment of herpetology/herpetoculture begins in the bottom of a deli-cup... for others it happens in the great expanse of wilderness. In my experience, those in the latter category find more appreciation for locality data because it ties a given suite of phenotypical characters to a geography and time in history that offer as much exhilaration as the animals.

For some, the enjoyment of herpetology / herpetoculture begins in the bottom of a deli-cup... for others it happens in the great expanse of wilderness.

I think its fair to say that these two sentiments are not mutually exclusive

In my experience, those in the latter category find more appreciation for locality data because it ties a given suite of phenotypical characters to a geography and time in history that offer as much exhilaration as the animals.

Agreed! If I were to come down to the southwest and collect a pair of alterna with you, Craig and the rest of the group I'd cherish those animals for the rest of my days not because I knew the exact locality of their capture but because of the fond memories of time, place and friends associated with them. I just don't see how that level of appreciation conveys to the next owners when the first generation of captive-bred offspring is produced and sold.

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

It goes without saying that alterna are incredibly variable in color and pattern. The parameters for color and pattern shift from place to place with each location possessing a different suite of characters (sometimes drastically different) that very often allow some animals to be distinguished from nearby localities by phenotype alone. When the geography plays such a large role in determining the phenotypes of the animals, and nature has applied pressure to drive variation to the extremes, it's a real shame to not preserve the uniqueness of each locality in captivity (unless you're just intrigued by "pretty".

You could breed NC triangulum with NJ triangulum and still technically have "costal plains", but considering their differences, wouldn't you rather be working with a pair of each? Thousands of years of adaptation went into making them look the way they look. I like trying to maintain the differences.

"I just don't see how that level of appreciation conveys to the next owners when the first generation of captive-bred offspring is produced and sold."

Maybe it doesn't. Either they're appreciators of the effort or their not. If they're not, the history dies. If they are, it lives on. I keep the information because it enriches my experience with the animals... not because it makes progeny marketable.

but that history certainly doesn't hurt the market value. Picture this, anyone sitting at their computer comes across a picture of any gbk for the first time, the snake first captures the attention, then, the person delves a bit into the history, most likely coming out of it with a bit of the Old West feel, a true taste of Texas, related by great storytellers from the area, or frequent visitors to the area, truly romanticizing the snake, because what that person who has never been to Texas is left with, is a story, some history, like some great western novel, an adventure to be had, something longed for deep in the soul. What if that person actually goes on that adventure? Part of him is lost forever out there, either never to leave or forever returning. Well, it HAS happened!
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Todd Hughes

I can’t speak to alterna populations with any authority but some time back I was visiting here and a breeder was enduring the character bashing that goes hand in hand with the drilling down process. During this I asked a simple question, how fixed are these phenotypes to the associated habitats? Though an interesting conversation ensued I never got a straight answer, I think in part because it can sometimes be not very! This illustrates part of Chris’s original question, is all this attention to locality “so important that people question each other's veracity”? From my observations sometimes people are caught misrepresenting animals, which is good, but at other times the bashing is senseless and hurtful. IMHO, as practiced here, the process of drilling down causes enough damage to negate any good.

Temporalis I can speak to with some authority. Coastals are highly variable throughout their range and within populations. The phenotypic difference between the extremes you mentioned (NJ and NC populations) is primarily explained through natural integration with the eastern milk in NJ and what they are now calling “historic hybridization” with scarlet kings in NC. Even so these population in the wild are much more variable than the captive populations imply. Most captive NJ stock is now only representative of a small group of founders from Ocean County that started the striped line. Nearly all captive NC stock stem from a mere two specimens that, according to the collectors, were "atypical". Even the classic coastals from southern MD with their high contrast dark maroon-red coloration are difficult to find as bright high color line-bred types prevail. This too goes to Chris’s question about what is the end goal of locality breeding because in this case it certainly isn’t preserving wild phenotypes! Its still about how pretty that snake looks in its cage and how well the offspring present in the deli cup.

In another post in this thread I said that, “At its best locality breeding is a way to avoid unintentional hybridization by crossing populations that in the wild might otherwise be reproductively isolated.” I still think this is main legitimate thrust of locality breeding. Granted anything that adds to an individual's experience in keeping these amazing animals is legitimate but it's also a simple personal preference that lack any tangible merit. My favorite color is blue yours might be green. Neither color is superior outside of our own experience. The implication that because one is not into locality they don’t have an appreciation of the “great expanse of wilderness” is bull. I love to keep and breed captive snakes for fun and profit but I thrill at wild populations that exist in that expanse and I "try" to keep the two endeavors separate. If anything for me the tie between the two is an increasingly hard time reconciling keeping snakes captive at all! Its sometimes hard reconciling my professed love for snakes and my practice of keeping them in plastic boxes not matter how roomy or "well designed" I think they are.

Lastly, the enduring natural history of any species is not contingent on what happens to individuals removed from the wild, it is reliant on preserving sufficient habitat to maintain viable wild populations.

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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

The hand of nature is much more profound than the profit driven nature of man in his quest to better it.

I've been going to west Texas for 23 years. In that time I've had experiences which have allowed me insight and developed an appreciation for the changes in geology, ecology, and habitat that contribute to the shifting parameters for phenotypic variation in alterna. The differing parameters make the populations of alterna from their respective localities different from one another. Some morphologies occur in more than one locality but the parameters in each location shift. I like maintaining that in my captive population. My main purpose in keeping alterna is not motivated by profit and I really don't consider how well something I find intriguing might "present in a deli-cup".

In another post in this thread I said that, “At its best locality breeding is a way to avoid unintentional hybridization by crossing populations that in the wild might otherwise be reproductively isolated.” I still think this is main legitimate thrust of locality breeding.

Most alterna localities are not reproductively isolated. Over a large range the phenotypes shift... it's the preservation of the variation present in each location that's important for me.

The implication that because one is not into locality they don’t have an appreciation of the “great expanse of wilderness” is bull.

There was no intended implication... just an inference on your part.

Lastly, the enduring natural history of any species is not contingent on what happens to individuals removed from the wild, it is reliant on preserving sufficient habitat to maintain viable wild populations.

I made no claims of contributing to the "enduring natural history of the species"... just that by preserving locality data I might have a bit more interest in it.

There was no intended implication...

Fair enough but too often I believe the implication is intended. I value locality stock just not for the same reasons and was only intending to answer Chris's question. Didn't mean to get dwawn into an over done debate but felt that my veiw was being portrayed as something base. Glad to hear that it was not.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

If you want locality animals or want to deal with locality animals, then just do it for your own reasons. If not and you want to deal with generics or hybrids... or what ever, then by all means, there are no "alterna police". All that is asked is that is you call it what it is so the differing interest do not tangle up.
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___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world