Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I read the thread below and was somewhat dismayed at the element that equates keeping one or two protect animals to driving 1 or 2 miles over the speed limit! This is not the case with keeping animals and there are just too many horror stories around to take any chances.

What's more, when you start rationalizing keeping state protected animals you endanger everyone who might deal with you. Keep a couple of PA milks, breed them and transport the offspring across county lines and you've violated the Lacey Act which is a Federal law. What's more the poor unknowing sap how bought them from you is equally liable.

I don't like or agree with all the laws either but one ignores them at their peril. My advice is don't even think about it. With the hodge-podge of laws enforced by varying agencies, its easy enough to run afoul of some statute without doing so knowingly. I understand the point but saying its ok to break the law a little bit is bad advice.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Agreed. It is important for one to know the laws in his state, obtain appropriate permits, know what is protected and off limits, know what lands are off limits when it comes to collecting. I think the point Jeff was making below was that commercial snake collectors and breeders have really drawn a lot of attention.

Part of the issue is when people try to make a living selling snakes, whether collected or captive bred...it's a hobby, one that people should enjoy, learn from, and teach others about. There are way too many people I've talked to who take it much more serious than that, expecting to make their mortgage or feed their kids based on selling a product (snakes) that people don't "need". It brings about a certain pressure to move things and make money, people get desperate and do desperate things...

What happened to the old days when a group of buddies hunted snakes, bred snakes, released half the babies where the parents were found and traded the other half or gave them away to friends who they hunt with?

Thanks,
Michael

Pretty much but I don't think we're ever going back.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Please PM me where you and your buddies release - I have a mortgage to make, afterall...

Just KIDDING!!!

"What happened to the old days when a group of buddies hunted snakes, bred snakes, released half the babies where the parents were found and traded the other half or gave them away to friends who they hunt with? " by westernNC

That's illegal now...

Tony, my point was that everyone breaks the law every day. The degree and extent are where ETHICS come into play. This should not be a case of being "a little pregnant", and just as the law should...it leaves it up to individual officers judgement. There has to be something extreme for them(at least in my state) to do ANYTHING. I am sure that somewhere in my state AND yours that there is a species for sale in a pet shop that is protected. That violates alot more laws than what we're talking about. That is more aggregis than keeping a couple milks. The species involved is also important, its REAL hard for a judge to consider wasting the court's time with small, common, non-poisonous snakes. Endangered species, poisonous snakes, big exotics and PETA's small fuzzy animals get prefferred treatment.
Your hodge-podge of laws comment is completely accurate. Its our business to know the laws, but how many DNR guys that you know can ID anything besides a box turtle?? And what are they going to gain by "catching" someone?? Big fine? Not likely. JAIL? Never. Pot is legal in Mass, to posess a little. WHY? So the court wont be filled up with petty crimes. I dont smoke, but I have no problem with those that do. Milksnakes are NOT "gateway" animals, my buddy in charge of permitting for the state laughed at the idea of me needing a permit........he is so swamped with the DAILY applications for Monkeys, TIGERS, and dangerous animals.
What is the WORST that could happen?? A guy here in MA living next to a school was keeping COBRAS ilegally....one escaped and was found IN THE SCHOOL in the middle of a classroom full of KIDS!! He got like a $500 fine. For $500 I might take the chance and keep what I want and not sweat the small stuff. This is not the same as snubbing my nose at the law because I have ETHICS. All you need to do is be a jerk to the wrong LE person, and if you break other laws you raise your chances for sure. By the letter of the law we would all have HYBRIDS, you realize that right? There will always be guys "on the edge" trying to make a buck(It is AMERICA), if you charge too much $$ for your stuff and dont declare income on your taxes...the state doesnt get their cut. FYI to all, and Joe M should back me up, our chief of permitting for the snake knows of both his albino and my island project and when we REQUESTED permits we were told its not necessary. Not being a jerk, but that kinda tells you what HE thinks of the law right? Its not the law itself but the INTENT of the person and their individual ETHICS that will bring about a knock on the door. This is not 1930's Germany.

The point is moot. You don't knowingly keep protected animals, period.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

position let me point out what should be obvious. Look in the classifieds, no look in your own collection, and figure out if you can PROVE every snake was legally obtained BEFORE it came to you. By your definition, if you have even 1 you cant prove, YOU have knowingly "broken the law".
My point is obvious to those who know me or follow my posts. There is no "1" standard, not with us, not with the law, and certainly not with the snakes. With the sheer number of reptiles on this site, if an agency had an agenda it wouldnt be hard to figure out who are the "bad guys", and breeders who keep a couple milks dont qualify. They would certainly start with bigger wholesalers, track specific types of animals(ones that are not "legal" anywhere) and PETA would be along checking the quarentining areas on imports....Its not done. WHY?
We are just coming off of 8 years with a republican in office in the middle of a recession/depression. Jobs are cut, and the few agents that still have their jobs are(and rightfully so)after bigger fish like black market Bear gall bladders, turtle exports to China, and other BIG MONEY/High profile operations. Sad but true, and I am NOT saying this to rationalize. I have biology degrees, if I were "caught" with illegal animals it could affect future employment. I dont consider myself to be "getting away with anything", my collection has been known to the states where I have lived for 20 years. While its a "good idea" to try and get permits(and I am mostly talking only about MY state so dont take this as gospel--like you would,LMAO!)for "grandfathering" status the truth is it may not be needed.
It sounds like I ruffled some feathers with my "brashness"(even Joe M,sorry dude), but again, if you know me its done for effect. The only wc animals I have are a couple anery milks, and my work with this single population is well documented. The Director doesnt consider CB babies part of ANY laws, and you have to know that the work going into producing morphs should lessen the demand on any future wc stock, right?? It has with corns, it has with boas and every other species that is commonly bred in captivity.
Basically, I think Mass. might be both good and lucky, we have a pregressive Director who knows how archaic wildlife laws can be. If you are an individual who is hiding what you do, what do you say when they come knocking? Like in the leucy hognose case, if they want to take both your legal and your illegal stuff there isnt much you can do about it. Remember that pet store in VA Beach?? When the cops found MY animals in the store(one of a kind and I had PROOF of it)they told me that if they siezed the animals they would be FROZEN and kept as evidence! The only way I could get them back alive was to PAY THE STORE FOR MY OWN ANIMALS! Yes, I know there are alot of bad LE guys out there, but in my experience if you are HONEST and a GOOD PERSON things usually work out in your favor.
Like everything the good has to out weigh the bad, the risk has to be worth the reward. To me, working with this specific line of animals has no equal. There is NO WAY I could buy something online or at a show that can give me the reward I feel for knowing that I am helping in the bigger picture. I have been both honest and consistent, and have explored the permit process more than once. Being forward, getting the pat on the back or the knowing wink per say from the guys in charge....combined with my biology background has me confident that I am doing the right thing. You can be a chicken little and shy away from keeping species, telling people about them or responding to this thread but in the end you and I are doing the same thing. We are keeping and breeding and domesticating snakes for sale in the hobby. If you think the state wants to know much more than this I would seriously doubt it. If you are a drug dealer selling milksnakes, you might get a little more attention, but remember Milks are not a gateway drug, not at all.

And you are right there have been several animals in my collection over the years that have been questionably legit. How about OBX kings, anything NJ or GA local, anything Australian, Hog Island Boas...... Christ the list goes on and on. In the end I don't think we're talking about the broader issues (though I brought up the Lacey Act as a complicating factor). The question was pretty much where can I get a legal eastern milk (with the assumption the person lived in PA). You insinuated that it was OK to just go ahead and get one. Though I understand the point, I simply think it a very bad idea to advise that minor infractions are OK whether for effect or not.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

A public forum is the place for such debate. My point was that NO ONE is 100% clean, everyone has broken the law when you dissect the fine print. But most of us hope that the eggs we break makes an omlette that will justify the "take". I think the longer you have done it, the more clear your individual message, the less "hassles" you have to deal with. Glass houses aside, my point was that even higher ups in LE dont believe in blanket enforcement of these laws...and you really have to be a "bad guy" to make it worth their while. So if its swapping locale animals, buying CB babies(especially MINE,LMAO!) or keeping a wc morph remember these are common animals. Be a hobbyish in the truest sense and be a contributing member of society and know what is ok and what isnt. If you dont know, pick up the phone and call your local or state LE and try to make a friend. It works!
From this there are some people who may think I am a "bad guy", but I'm not. Alot of you that read this will understand but not follow up out of fear, dont let your guilty catholic upbringing keep you in the closet! I am working on a scale I will post in another thread that I want as many people to respond honestly to....to demonstrate the ideals that I've talked about. When I post it PLEASE no knee jerk reactions to it, the longer you stay in the hobby the longer you realize this is a maturation process and there is no "right and wrong". Thanks

Didn't say you can't or shouldn't say I was just taking it as a point of discussion. Relax have a shot of grapa!
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

obsessed with drug dealers?
then what you said applied to drugs...

"they won't come after us little guys, hobbyists, with just a few snakes "

"cops always bust the BIG drug lords only, and never pay attention to the little guy on the street just buying drugs for their own personal use,because it won't hurt anybody else but themselves".....

...which is a true statement?........neither.....

.....
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

Quotation marks are for ACTUAL QUOTES, not sure who you were quoting in that last post. It certainly wasnt me. I made reference to "milksnake the gateway drug" as a JOKE, obvious enough or so I thought. The one thing about NA "milkheads", they are alot more like the NERDS in school than the druggies. I have met most of em, and even if they dont followup they likely will be entertained in reading this. And most arent swayed by someone posting of a bust like that NY fiasco. We are smart enough to talk our way around problems and not get involved with shady people. There arent any milkheads trying to make a buck, thats for sure,lol.

that was a different day? and I did quit....

quote this .....

...nerds...? ...ummm no...I was a head in my later years at school, a slacker by choice, ...but hey...I aced biology classes, genetics and all, go figure...and helped the real nerds try and at least pass....they could not remember bio stuff at all...weekly tests made them cry,,,but if you aced the course back then you could skip the finals....yep....how can they expect to remember the stuff for the finals if they couldn't remember the weekly stuff?....

you know how guys named Jeff can be....we do stuff just for dramatic affect...

ruffle ruffle....

.......
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

There arent any milkheads trying to make a buck, thats for sure,lol...

this comin from a guy who tried selling MONSTER E.milks at 2K a pop, and not only MONSTER but ANERY as well!

roflmao

sad, funny and ironic, insightful and very telling but ultimately very very very sad.
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, tell the truth. It was for 3(!!) animals, it IS a morph(how do you like your crow cooked?)in case you missed the pics, and its still less than half price of the white sided morph in the classifieds. I dont see you chastising TT here. Everyone knows the high price was to keep people from breeding this line into mainland milks....just as people keep Outer Banks "pure", they charge more for em. To me the sad thing is that you still cant get over misidentifying a red milk from 10 years ago,LMMFAO!! Funny how you remember only half of every story huh? PS, milkheads can key out milks without relying on color....

"Everyone knows the high price was to keep people from breeding this line into mainland milks...."

THAT is a crock jeff if only becasue you're trying to asert control that is not possible.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, that is the truth. How can I be hung out to dry offering 3 snakes for 2k($600ea) when there is a whitesided milk online for $4k?? To me, the anerys look better too!
FYI- it HAS worked, no one has bred them into mainland milks. THAT was my goal, ok announcing a first offering with a bang helps too.

Note I never hung you to dry on this, I just think its a crock to try and keep others from outcrossing by keeping prices up. You can not asert that level of control. The only reason that this line hasn't been crossed yet (assuming it hasn't) is because its still in its infancy. You've really yet to prove anything. As I understand it this will be the season.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

??? how far actually is Nantucket from the "mainland"....

I thought milks could swim?.....

.....and yea...a whiteside is not the same as an "anery".....

......man....I really wish someone would post pics of some western hillsides and lizards and stuff...even a man with a cigar would be nice for a change....!!!!

LOL
.
.
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

and its still less than half price of the white sided morph in the classifieds. I dont see you chastising TT here...

wow i dont know how to say this but i will try, THERE IS NO COMPARISON in your wannabe morph and that ws. NONE,nada,zip,zilch its like comparing a bicycle w/training wheels to a full blown harley, get a grip! i beleive tt has over 20years in that project. no comparison! what you have 5yrs in and still havnt proven anything!, but im pulling for you this is THE year right???

now...

red milksnakes are RED if an individual is collected in an area where LTT is found and it is not red the honest consensus is its LTT or perhaps intergraded with LTT, you chose not do this and misrepresent to a newbie, good on you. in the same way you are/do with these anery wannabe monster milks, now if i read that right you publicly stated they were procured illegally and that you dont care, hmmmmm thats sad. also explain the "monster" thing again 4ft.? what qualifies a monster? we all no what qualifies an anerythristic which you have NOT yet proven yours to be. yet you market them as anery monsters???
ethics
ethics
ethics
no crow to eat here.
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

wow i dont know how to say this but i will try, THERE IS NO COMPARISON in your wannabe morph and that ws. NONE,nada,zip,zilch its like comparing a bicycle w/training wheels to a full blown harley, get a grip! i beleive tt has over 20years in that project. no comparison! what you have 5yrs in and still havnt proven anything!, but im pulling for you this is THE year right???

Thomas, its not a wannabe morph, enough pics and opinions have been accumulated to not need yours,lmao! Maybe I ONLY have 18 YEARS into the project, but thats hardly a deciding factor for anyone is it? And while Anerythrism isnt as sexy as the albino....to me its a heck of alot better than the WS gene. With WS's, its difficult to even determine the SPECIES never mind the subspecies. WS Black rats were HOT because we havent seen em before, WS brooks were popular and higher priced for a while, WS speckleds(though I think they are nicer looking)suffer from both being a speckled to begin with AND that its not signifcantly different. The WS eastern milk you cant even tell its a milk! It is cool, and the story behind it is awesome work by TT, but its going to be even less popular than the speckled WS because it is now the 4th different WS available. Further, combining the WS trait with another, the WS gene dominates so much the other gene isnt noticable(ex-anery WS brooks). Anerys can be the ugly ducklings of the morph world, but they are important in cleaning up albinosZ(look how clean the pattern is on these!) and turning em into snows. etc. To add the size AND a gene at the same time?? The GREEN that exists in anerys will make SMOKIN SNOWS!Let me put it as simple as possible....Carl Bartlett has been working with me on this project. You may know his name from his work with BOTH Hypo coastal plains AND striped coastal plains morphs. A couple years ago he was at the bottom of his "roller coaster" and was downsizing. He gave me all his coastals, some rubber boas, and I helped him move some other stuff. What did he keep? His cb baby ANERY Monster island milk! He just had a anery female lay too, so there is duplicity(what I was originally looking for in the line).
Now if I know you, you will engratiate HIS milks and dump on mine. You are simple like that.

now...

red milksnakes are RED if an individual is collected in an area where LTT is found and it is not red the honest consensus is its LTT or perhaps intergraded with LTT, you chose not do this and misrepresent to a newbie, good on you. in the same way you are/do with these anery wannabe monster milks, now if i read that right you publicly stated they were procured illegally and that you dont care, hmmmmm thats sad. also explain the "monster" thing again 4ft.? what qualifies a monster? we all no what qualifies an anerythristic which you have NOT yet proven yours to be. yet you market them as anery monsters???
ethics
ethics
ethics
no crow to eat here.
,,,,,,,thomas davis

Kinda surprised anyone would sign their name to that post. Red milksnakes are a SUBSPECIES not a description. Species ID isnt done by CONSENSUS, its done by using a key(Williams,1988).
If that isnt enough for you how about a pic?
Oh ya, and if thats not enough for you how about a EXACT LOCALE? Still not enough? How about the name of the famous milkman I got it from?
How about the very knowledgable student who actually CAUGHT the animal in question?
STILL NOT ENOUGH, huh? Well, how about I send you a FREE replacement?
You dont like that one either??
Well, all I can say is that I TRIED, and I cant think of a thing I could have done differently other than not deal with the guy in the beginning.
A MONSTER ISLAND is a locale of these very strange milks that I dont want published(for obvious reasons). The largest milk in the COUNTRY was found there, adults regularly reach 4-4+'! And as stated previous, my actions and intents are and have been known to the state for the whole 18 years I have been working on em. Hardly illegal if you get the blessing to both raise and SELL from the director is it? Dont believe me? Again, Joe got the same story....so all E.milk morphs sold out of Mass simply wont have any permit problems! Cool huh? A little jealous, I know, sorry about that,lmao! And for dessert? I hear HUMBLE PIE goes well with crow!

"Anerys can be the ugly ducklings of the morph world, but they are important in cleaning up albinosZ(look how clean the pattern is on these!) and turning em into snows. etc."

Crossing traits? You mean there are island albinos and hypos? How in the world did I miss that news flash or, are you talking about crossing to "mainland" albinos and hypos? Seems like locality is taking a back seat to morph production there buddy! Now if I could only remember who has always ridden who's a_s over this very same thing.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Morphs are morphs, manmade animals that I have no problem mixing/matching even within ssp. Locality is locality, what I had a problem with is mixing localities....because somewhere down the line someone, somewhere was going to misrepresent them. So before you throw another log on the fire realize that one wasnt me.

You weren't near as bad as the other girls were but you took your shots.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I had a problem with the idea of "building a better coastal" by interbreeding locales. I did have a small problem with bringing the hypo morph into the NC line....but this was primarily because of mutts you produce to get there. I sincerely doubt everyone getting a non-locale coastal from you could keep that tag on. If they pass through 1-2 sets of hands now "they are what they look like", not one or the other. And because you are one of the most successful coastal breeders....your offspring dominate the culture, the locality snakes are that much more difficult to find.

I disagree about my animals dominating the culture. Only about one in four inquires I get are actually interested in a generic hypo. Most are looking for either non-hypos (a price thing I believe) or locality animals.

I also did not set out to "build a better coastal". Who's quote is that supposed to be anyway? Certainly not mine! It was always my first intent to reverse a pretty severe fecundity issue that I reasonably believe was the result of line locality breeding in the first place. The secondary goal was to migrate the hypo gene into what I saw as three distinct coastal pattern types. Classic types as typified by southern MD populations, northern types as typified by NJ stock and southern types as typified by NC stock. Note that even these types are imaginings that stem from our expectations of captive-bred animals. In nature the populations are much more variable.

As for worrying about the "mutts" I create again I say how hypocritical of you! If you truly worry about the consequences of what I do you wouldn't be creating brooks X goini animals yourself and you wouldn't have asserted that there is an inherent value in your green monsters because of the potential to outcross into other morphs from the mainland!

All of my coastal go into the hobby as generics. Background locality information of the stocks I utilized is only provided to help communicate the suite of characteristics they are capable of passing on. Now to the real point, locality projects aren't "contaminated" because of the existence of generics. They are contaminated because locality breeders can be just as tempted buy a pretty snake for a below market price as the next guy! Want to keep stock pure; then do the friggin homework!! A few well-placed questions go a long way to identifying potential "purity" issues with stocks. You want to say you have 100% pure locality stock you don't add animals to your collection if there is ANY doubt even if the animal is smoking hot and offered at an unbelievable price.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, I put ""around that to islolate it, to decribe what I thought you were trying to do. I'm pretty accurate. "Mutt" coastals are alot more difficult to ID than kingsnake crosses, and the relative scarcity(higher $$)could sway less scrupulous snake people. My criticizm I think is more pointed to the types of coastal people I KNOW(or used to know), and that there seem to be less coastal breeders than ever.
Your reference to goini x brooksi that I am working with isnt a fair comparison. The ONLY reason for these is morphs, and they are cheap enough for people to not bother to misrepresent em. Crossing Monster milks to mainland to make SNOWs is a legitimate cross to create a new multi morph. Pretty much every multimorph you see has completely lost its locality status right? And while different, I am not yet saying Monsters are a different ssp.. I have spent long enough establishing this line without having to wait on a albino to pop out of it to create something different. To me, its these different things,morphs, that keep my interest longer.

FL and Goini getula types go for 275 - 300, they start easier and have larger clutches so if monetary incentive is the motive there is more in your project. I charge 400 for hypos and clutch sizes are usually not more than 6.

And lest you forget my coastal project is and always has been a morph project so if that's a qualifying factor for being OK then no shots should ever have been taken. On top of that when I create an F2 cross 1 in 4 is the desired phenotype. When you take your monsters and cross them to produce multi morphs only 1 in 16 will be the desired phenotype. That's five time the opportunity for animals to be misrepresented based on the expressed phenotype.

Face it here dude you're stance is completely lacking credibility. If a cross benefits you it's rationalized as being ok. If someone does a cross that you feel threatens something you do or would like to do you take shots at it.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Face it here dude you're stance is completely lacking credibility. If a cross benefits you it's rationalized as being ok. If someone does a cross that you feel threatens something you do or would like to do you take shots at it.

amen to that tony
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tony, we have gotten off subject. While some of the first goini x's are $$, most are no more $$ than a regular morph. Its the variability(that I loved in coastals)that I like, and the orange/red holding through morphs accentuates this. Until there are more coastal breeders coastals will be worth more and hold their value better..you know this.
Now, MATH. You are shooting for a SINGLE morph through cross breeding--75% of what you produce are generic looking coastals. IF I breed the albino into the monster anery line it would be for a DOUBLE MORPH. 7/16 of them would be morphs! Only about 56% would be generic easterns. Now, the truth is I could easily take any het tags off and distribute em cheap and not many would be any wiser, baby easterns are common enough. Baby coastals are NOT, there isnt anywhere to sell em where locality isnt asked at some level(resale). Coastals may be the rarest Triangulum in the country right?
Taking shots? I have stated my position now and in the past, as have you. Nothing has changed. I suggest that Monster Island milks may supplant Coastals as the rarest Triangulum, and I think its you that are threatened. I dont rationalize, I think things out very logically. You dont have to agree with my end results but you cant really question the methods. I defend what I do because I am the only one here doing the defending. I have done the homework to know what I am talking about here, unlike some of the followers. Time and generations(CB)changes everything. What is $$ and rare today will be cheap and common tomorrow, so keep what you want. To make something $$ is simply saying its rare, these are. To make something cheap is to say they are common, they arent. I dont see any rationalization in that!

oh its true
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Why dont you back up your statements instead of making a fool of yourself?

IF I breed the albino into the monster anery line it would be for a DOUBLE MORPH. 7/16 of them would be morphs! Only about 56% would be generic easterns. Now, the truth is I could easily take any het tags off and distribute em cheap and not many would be any wiser, baby easterns are common enough.

no sorry jeff if you breed your anery monsters to an albino you will get all normal double hets IF your anery is indeed anery.
lotta IF'S now those dbl.hets would have a 1 in 4 chance of producing a snow. proving the anery is SO EASY to do, sad it hasnt been done yet.
56% 7/16 would be morphs?!?!?and your a bioligist? please explain how you come up with that guestimation.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

In the F2 generation 1 in 4 would be amel, 1 in 4 would be green. Of the group however only 1 in 16 would be identifiable as the non local morph. The others could pass as anything some unscrupulous breeder would choose.

For my project this criticism allies to 75% of offspring

For Jeff's proposed project it applies to ~94%

And what happens when that albino possible het for snake animal turns out to be a non-het. Now its more valuable as a locality albino. It goes on and on.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

Tony, you got more brains than this. F1=double hets, they arent going anywhere. F2=7/16 morphs(1 snow/3 albino/3 anery/ 9 normal poss dbl het). 75% of your coastals FAR outweighs 56% of undiscernable eastern milks.
My point is MINE is hypothetical, yours, you actually did. Who is the hypocrite?

You are. I'm not taking shots. I'm just pointing out that you've undone your own arguments.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

>>lotta IF'S now those dbl.hets would have a 1 in 4 chance of producing a snow.

Double het x Double het = 25% double homo?? I could be wrong, but I believe you only have a 1/16 chance of producing a double homo animal by breeding double hets.

het amel het anery x het amel het anery =

3/16 amel
3/16 anery
1/16 snow
9/16 normal 66% het amel, 66% het anery

This would be 7/16 chance of producing a visible morph.
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Joe

Wait for it........wait for it......YUP, I AM RIGHT!

Maybe I ONLY have 18 YEARS into the project, but thats hardly a deciding factor for anyone is it?

roflmao 18yrs, is enough of a deciding factor for me. good luck you need all you can get.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Its only days now til I get to hear "you are right" from you. I mean, the stand-up type of guy you are you will admit being wrong for years right?? ROFLMFAO!

hmmmmm that snake doesnt look 4 and a half ft. must be a small monster, or is it het.monster?
is that what you are calling anery? or het?
wheres the father? grandfather,sibs etc?
pics pics pics
18yrs and this is what ya got????????
lame.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

That is a anery monster, monster is the locale and it has not been mixed with any mainland blood. They arent all 4 ', thats max size, this is obviously her first breeding. Yes, 18 years is a long time, think of that in terms of the internet and digital cameras and that should shut you up a while. What have YOU contributed besides apprehension and skepticism? Where is your project?? Thats what I thought.

4 foot eastern....caught a pair this year, same RR tie ....not monster, just able to not get run over and able to eat alot...and good genetics...ask TT...true 4 footers....

....anery......the post below says proving out....I didn';t want to reply to it...but I thought you were going to have a pic in the post of a snow or sumpin' from them?...hurry up......

are they anery?....maybe....so....like said....at least 3 types of anery in corns and alot more than we need in balls...and all kinds of hypos in everything....we can and cannot see...

...and as for emails...NO, I am not Joe Hughes, don't know who it is.....??? you really like old women Jeffrey?

and I am not in Cali.....so knock on my door in PA ...closer...saves on gas and number of snakes run over in the process......haven't you been paying attention yet?

.....ruffle ruffle....?.........

.....

..........
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

The liking old women comment has me guessing...thats SO not me,lol. I'm not apologizing for what the adult anerys look like....nothing I can do about it, but no snows yet. Joe's male is still around, hoping to supply him with females next year(fingers crossed!) You found 4' easterns?? How about some PICS? Every year someone says they have one, but no one I have seen is bigger than the one in this pic....

..older women...you said something about someone's mother...? I assumed you were dating?...LOL

...4 foot...a pair.....actually a male coiled...pet down wood....looking at snake...looked down and saw dots moving in hole in wood...picked up same wood and there was a female sneaking under it, while three guys stood right at it...my feet were on either side of her.....so people...don't be afraid to look under good wood more than one time if you are roaming an area chasing snakes around....and yes...4 footers...male was dull brown , almost like brown anery-ish and female was faded brick red ...all the milks that day were all actually the same color ...yet all to a different degree of fading....the sun does this....I'd bet on it....
(had a male here for 10 years from '89 to '99 and due to no sun he never dulled totally...and in 10 years (he was like 13) he never did reach 4 foot....stayed the 3 , 3 1/2..)...

anyways.......you posted a pic ....an anery milk with a normal , reduced pattern and brightened up to boot....the normal brightened up one...well...it reminds me of like ,oh, let's say...hypo-ish....???....hypo...missing or reduced pigment...and you do know there are at least 3 layers of pigment on a snakes' skin?...right...so that's why different types of hypo look and act differently......

....having fun yet?............

.....
-----
JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

....having fun yet?............

OK, so I guess thats a NO on the pics,lol. Its always convenient that people DONT have pics when they claim to have caught one, you know you would be taking me to task. Pattern doesnt dull from the sun, these are underground animals. The fact is we FIND them most often in blue because thats when they come to the surface to collect energy to shed. A big old snake will be dull from the amount of TRAVEL on their scales, in captivity you will see reduction of black pigment from generation to generation in Pyros. There are many types of genetic anomolies, about 15 years ago I saw a few PIEBALD milks out on monster island...but havent seen any since.

thats 4ft. huh? roflmao ... my guess is that snake isnt even 36 inches. thats a monster?!?!?!? anery to?!? LMFAO pyros?wtf? now monster island has piebald easterns as well as anery monsters. what a joke.
lame.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

The albino chain king in the pic is an adult, and the milk is a good deal bigger than the king. No, its not a anery, but sure is a monster, she TRIPLE clutched for me last year! Now that I am better with pics its only a matter of time til I find another pie bald milk. Laugh all you want, hope your hungry....you'll be eaten more crow soon!

ok jeff since you have a camera now howsa bout a tape measure or ruler next to that monster milk for referance. i still say its not even 36 inches, 3 clutches? really? 3clutches and no pics?hmmmmm ok????? albino chainking roflmfao
lame.
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I am doin all the postin of pics, the proving out, you are only criticizing! Time for you to ante up! I want to see some NA milks that you have bred, raised up, maybe a f2?? Bring your expertise to the table or just be quiet already!

well i dont have NA milks anymore. i have in the past though? no biggie same as any other NA colubrid.
roflmfao i knew you wouldnt post a pic with a ruler or tape measure hahahaha come'on already i wanna see a 4and a half foot e.milk from monster island and anery to boot! im sure EVERYONE does!
im waitin...
got 3 clutches from 1 female e.milk in one season, i dont beleive that for one minute wheres the proof? as in baby pics,laying pics,hatching pics ANY PICS! etc.etc. see without PROOF anyone can SAY anything. that doesnt make it so.
still waiting...
LAME.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

So you dont keep NA milks, but you are an expert huh? Maybe you could say you are an astronaut because you looked at the moon once, but I would call BULL on that too,lol. I cant put a ruler to that snake as she was lost soon after her 3rd clutch...which I was obviously not expecting. But I have posted pics of BIG milks here, no one else has....why dont you ask them?? Why is it up to me? I mean, do your own homework, go to the Museum of Comparitive Anatomy in Harvard and SEE the record specimen and LOOK AT THE LOCALE ON THE BOTTLE! Or go out in the field and FIND a bigger one and take the pics you want me to show you! Too many dam lazy people here wanting me to do their homework for em! If you think you have seen or can prove you have bigger milks by all means..have at it. My milks are likely bigger than your kings,LMAO!

ok jeff i will break down

>So you dont keep NA milks, but you are an expert huh?

>>>i dont keep any now, i have over my 25 years and i certainly NEVER claimed to be an expert!,wrong person maybe?

>Maybe you could say you are an astronaut because you looked at the moon once, but I would call BULL on that too,lol.

>>>whatever...

>I cant put a ruler to that snake as she was lost soon after her 3rd clutch...which I was obviously not expecting.

>>>aint that ALWAYS the case when cornered?its lost,and of course there are no pics of clutches being laid or babies pipping, whos the astronaut?...

>But I have posted pics of BIG milks here, no one else has....

>>>perhaps because noone cares about 4ft. e.milks which are fairly common throughout their vast range.

>why dont you ask them??

>>> ask who, what and why?

>Why is it up to me?

>>>what is up to you?

>I mean, do your own homework, go to the Museum of Comparitive Anatomy in Harvard and SEE the record specimen and LOOK AT THE LOCALE ON THE BOTTLE! Or go out in the field and FIND a bigger one and take the pics you want me to show you! Too many dam lazy people here wanting me to do their homework for em! If you think you have seen or can prove you have bigger milks by all means..have at it. My milks are likely bigger than your kings,LMAO!

>>>i am not the one marketing genetic giants from an insular race that you are claiming not only to be GIANT but ANERY too! i just wanna see them! all ive seen are normal e.milks. the fact is 4ft.e.milks are fairly common throughout their range i dont NEED to prove that, least of all to you.

now heres some BIG milks and kings

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

look 6 foot to me........

.........
-----
JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

Smart guy, you respond to my posts questioning my ID skills...not once, not twice but 5-6 times like a child. I would HOPE you are some kind of expert to refute me(I AM A ID EXPERT, witness in several court cases attests to the fact). From now on I will copy and paste your response to your followups. You waste my and the forums time and space. I am not defensive, but I can put your offense on the bench without balking. I cant forsee you asking for pics YEARS before the advent of digital cameras. More than that, you dont bring anything to the table worth arguing about. Your BIG kings are 5', big hondos maybe 6'.
Again, I told you WHERE you could find the largest specimen of NA milk in the COUNTRY, and where it came from. I took pics of the milks I've had when I had a camera(use serpwidgets measuring stick you lazy bastard). And I am NOT marketing them, I am responding to --unfounded accusations---huge difference. If you dont see these as anery...go back to sleep, we will wake you when the ride is over.

new day same sheet

if it is anery...who cares...who wants milks that take 18 years to get babies from????

and snows....white snakes all look alike...for a hundred or so bucks they can get a snow hondo....???......want smaller?....take an anery corn and breed it to an amel milk then take F1 and back breed them...you got snows....wait...it isn't done in the real world of morph makings.....cough....

...go fishing.....please.....
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

With these GREEN anerys its my contention they will make GREEN SNOWS, greener than any snow corn! The 18 years were discovering the population, getting both sexes, establishing them, recovering when my whole collection was stolen, and doing everything all over again...and 2 generations CB. Again, thanks for the support.

......snow's a snow

......without these rants and raves and fights, noone would know you...

....right?

...example....name the morph I was the first to buy?, the morph I was the first to reproduce and offer for sale?, the morph I was the first to have hatch/create?, the morph I helped to establish?, or more than one?......you don't even know my name....!...or the state I live in?.....

see...I didn't fight with anyone about them all....so you don't know any of the answers.........

........as for milks...it's easy with me....most are from the same 2 guys stock.......yet I still need(LOL)/want more ssp of milks....*(WHY?)....,,,,,......hmmmm...I still need a hypo/amel red/temp..........(to go with 4 locales reds and 3 temp so far)

.....
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

You are right, I dont know your name because you choose to be anonymous on the forum where I put my full and last name.
I responded to this post as it was a followup to where eastern milks can be had legally, you call it marketing, I call it integrity.
So far, I have had my legal status questioned, the work with this locale questioned, the morph questioned, and even the SIZE of the milk in the pics questioned.
I know Tony, and I consider my "arguements" with him intelligent conversation.
Thomas has FINALLY admitted to not knowing NA milks so well, its taken me about 5-6 years to get that out of him, LMAO! It was TOTALLY worth it!
You havent brought anything to the table. You cant refute ANY of my claims and you cant back up any you make yourself. I have friends reading this emailing me that THIS is the reason why they dont post here. Maybe I am a bit gullible and can be coaxed into an arguement, but I wont sit idle while my locale is being trashed. If you dont like what I have to offer, fine, but there is no reason to question endlessly my integrity, it is intact and hasnt changed.

my name is on every post

people named Jeff are dumbasses

4 foot easterns live anywhere

anery ....keep going...
.
emails....all I got was 2 from you....duh.

western milk people don't even read this crap if they are as smart as I think most of them are...

.....I don't need to back myself up to you....I go to shows...people know me....lots and lots of people...big time people......I been around since snake shows started....

damn...am I as old as you?....that suxx.....

....2 weeks...come on down to Hamburg show.....you won't believe it.....bring money.....(***milks...not alot usually....but all other crap)...

...have fun....take a boat ride....the water is warm this weekend by the island.....
-----
JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

Jeff Barringer runs the site. Dont bastion Jeffs blantantly. Your name isnt on a single post. I am SO DONE with this thread.

hahahahaHAHAHA roflmfao,,,,,

Thomas has FINALLY admitted to not knowing NA milks so well, its taken me about 5-6 years to get that out of him, LMAO! It was TOTALLY worth it!

this is a BLATANT lie, and actually shows your integrity jeff.
LAME
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"red milksnakes are RED if an individual is collected in an area where LTT is found and it is not red the honest consensus is its LTT or perhaps intergraded with LTT, you chose not do this and misrepresent to a newbie, good on you. in the same way you are/do with these anery wannabe monster milks."

Well, here is your first quote, cant tell you what this does for YOUR integrity.

"i dont keep any now, i have over my 25 years and i certainly NEVER claimed to be an expert!,wrong person maybe? "

Classic followup, couldnt put it together better if I tried. THnaks, Jeff

you weren't done

your name is on your posts

if you look at the same spot on my posts, you will see my name...?.....hey look , it's right up there....and I go by JY anyways....but if you go to the BOI and look up JY it is another guy who used the same JY later....but anyways...I been JY and Scales -N -Tails for 20 years.....

Jeff's are all dumbasses.....and you used a Texan as an example?....I will not comment any further ....LOL........

uummmm....hey...here's a hint......
MY name is Jeffrey Yohe.....wow...how hard was that........

............oh, Google or Yahoo it...there are like 7 in PA alone.....imagine that.....

....have fun........

....

-----
JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

integrity ok well thanks mine is just fine.
and i guess you didnt get it ive kept & bred snakes for 25years including eastern milks. does that make me an expert? NO, did i ever claim i was an expert? NO, has it taken me 18yrs to TRY and proove an anery trait in e.milks? NO.
GIANTS lets see one????
4ft. is/was fairly average. i also had green ones they were from Ky. maybe they were anery...who cares... easterns are the butt of the milkworld, sad but true.
weak &
lame as always.
good luck with your snow project, 18yrs and still havnt proven the anery HA your gonna need it with the snow roflmfao
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

is that they have not pulled this child like chatter. If I didn't know your ages I wouldn't believe it. You guys make this forum a joke when you post this sort of crap.

-----
Randy Whittington

thanks randy
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>is that they have not pulled this child like chatter. If I didn't know your ages I wouldn't believe it. You guys make this forum a joke when you post this sort of crap.
>>Randy Whittington

I've also thought no matter who's "right" in this thread, the conversation degenerated to an unfortunate level. Each of the participants has contributed meaningfully in the past, and i liked that better.

yea....that's what I hewld in my hand...2 milks...at 4 foot each.....and years ago a guy had one running around his home....male, just as dull,,,,

..they fade due to wear from underground traveling?...

...like...the more I wipe my ars with a towel, the more faded it will be?.....and not due to the detergent ....????

////.....sun....sun light....

....get a baby monster and put one in a tank with alot of dirt and one with a light.....

piebald?....got a pic?...guess not...I find it convenient to not have a pic...blah blah...same as you to us....guess I gotta drive up and find a pied.....

like my brother's father -in law saw a white snake in his front yard every once in awhile a garter....for years...but noone else saw it.......yet....I believed him.....yet my brother never found or saw it.....

....didn't carry a camera...didn't use one for yearsss....I really do need to work one or two .....then go find some 4 1/2 foot easterns.....

.....Cosalas milks are monsters too......I saw one of them once......
.
.
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

I have posted pics over the last few years to shut you up. What have you done to refute my claims? I stated I found a piebald 10-15 years ago, before kingsnake.com and the internet, sorry. The difference is when I have pics I post. You.....not so much. Go ahead and TRY.

call Ted and shutup...he probably isn't dumb enough to be reading this crap right now anyways....so I haven't fogged his mind with stuff...he will tell you...just ask "how big were the pair JY pulled out from same tie?"....

....have fun....he'll be pleased you called....

...
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

Clearly, you are not the one to be giving advice on proper grammar.....

>>
>>
>>FYI to all, and Joe M should back me up, our chief of permitting for the snake knows of both his albino and my island project and when we REQUESTED permits we were told its not necessary.
>>

While my personal beliefs may differ from those mentioned, I understand where Jeff is coming from. The above statement is true. I approached the chief in charge of permitting for the state with my albino and my intentions of reproduction with inquiries on what permits I could and/or needed to obtain. After a very interesting conversation I was told that permits were not necessary for my situation and "good luck with your project". Had I been told differently, I obviously would have obtained any permits necessary.
-----
Joe

Having worked for regulatory agencies I can tell you that such determinations can change. Best to get anything like this documented. In VA for instance there is a specific exemption for albino snakes. One can only work with corns, eastern kings and mole kings. These are the only ones you can get a permit for. Any native albino however is not subject to the law and may be bred without a permit. The problem comes in when defining albino because it never was. Albino has been taken to include all pigment deficient morphs but this has never been codified as it should be.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

if I told you on a forum huh? You of all people know me, my sarcastic nature. I dont want to be ostricized for being "out", but my brashness is for effect as you know. My intent is honorable. Hey, how big is that nice little boy gettin?? Have I got a girl for him!!

....Thanxx...you get it....I know alot of the "learned" milkheads won't touch this type of thread...and alot won't even want to read them.....also...you and I won't get through to the "on the edge" of illegal people (edge,a thin line of ones' own making to suit ones own needs)......so I quit....2 people already admitted to being illegal and a third I forget........
.
.
........OK Johnny...tell them what they've won.....!!!

.
.
.
...........
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

Coming from a state where teachers and healcare workers are being laid off because the budget needs to be cut, I would have to call my congressman if I found out that funding was being spent to conduct an 18 month investigation (or any investigation for that matter) of a 12 year old boy with a snake he collected in his yard.

I would like to add that I live in a state that has very reasonable laws when it comes to collecting and keeping snakes and knowledgeable people making those laws. There are other states (TN or GA for example) that are just way over the top. I know the laws for my state. If I have a question or if I'm interested in something that is protected in my state, I can call the NCWRC and speak to someone about what I would need to do in order to legally obtain such an animal. If I am unable to do so because I'm not affiated with a university or whatnot, then I can go out and legally purchase a subspecies that is similar to the one I want but non-native to my state and therfore legal. Happened to me in 2004. I wanted to purchase a pair of N. Pines, but they are protected in NC. Called the NCWRC and they told me that I could apply but would likely be denied. I went out and purchased Southern Pines and Black Pines, which are ok in my state, and everybody was happy and everything was legal.

Thanks,
Michael