Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, I need a little advice on breeding an 09 male this coming season. He's already over 200 grams and eats like a cow. Ive read in vpi's book that some breeders condition them by putting them with breeder females before the actual season. Any input is greatly appreciated.
Thanks

I can only share my personal opinion: I have a male that is feeding well and is about the same size, but he is valuable to me so I am going to have him skip a season. I've read of males going off feed and losing up to 200 grams for mating. I wouldn't want to risk him.
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3.4 ball pythons
1.1 kingsnakes
0.1 crazy cat
?!.?! ASFs
1.0 husband

In my opinion,
Breeding young males is a matter of selecting the male with the best odds of "Doing a Good Job"...and the keeper's task of "Close Management".
By selecting the correct male, I mean to say that, there are some males who may be of the same age...but just did not grow...no matter how you have tried to "push" them.

I would rather not push any animal to grow...but instead, select the male which stands out above the crowd. Anyone, with a decent sized collection, can see the animal that WANTS to grow.
These animals will be the ones with an explosive appetite...and it's not only their appetite that stands out...They will also amaze you with their rapid metabolism and of course, their growth.
Selection is an individual thing. Pick the animal that really shines when it comes to the above criteria.
Rather than actual selection on the keeper's part....it is more like, the animal will show himself to be "THE ONE" who has the best odds of doing what YOU hope for.

The second part is "Close Management". If someone says that they bred a male too early...and it killed the male...

Well, I see that differently. I say it was poor management on that breeder's part. They were not paying attention to the right details. The act of copulation will not cause death in a young male! (Believe me!) But, an overzealous keeper who is not keeping track of the important details can easily spell disaster!
A keeper should have a good eye for the correct body weight (in relation to the snake's size.)
If you are not gifted with this ability (like most of us) then utilize an accurate digital scale. Weigh the animal prior to introduction to the female. Keep weighing that male at regular intervals....weekly seems to be good for me. It is just as important to keep track of your male's weight gain/loss as it is to monitor your female's weight changes.

(Keep in mind that you are talking about a small animal...so in relation to size...that small weight loss can be more critical for the small animal... than it might be for a larger one.)

Keep an eye on that boy. If he is showing no interest in breeding, remove him...or switch to another female.
Selecting the correct female is no less important.
(I am not talking about which color/pattern morphs to breed)
But I am saying that you need to put your male with a girl who has nice follicular development. You need to palpate (I like to feel large grape sized follicles) Or use an ultrasound.
Putting that young male with a female who is not ready...is wasting valuable time for everyone involved (snakes and keepers).

Above all, you do not want to risk over exposure to stress for that young male. Breeding ALWAYS involves some stress....for both males and females. In larger animals, the stresses of breeding are less profound. In smaller animals it really needs your close management.
Keep an eye on the snake's behavior and its weight.

If you remove the male from a female's presence...how long does he take to resume feeding normally?
This is important to understand; as it will allow you to give your male a break from breeding and a chance to replenish the spent energy. It allows the keeper to manage the weight and health correctly.

If you are running into signs of stress...then you should give them a break and possibly discontinue dwelling on YOUR own eager drive to see him breed early. If in doubt...it never hurts to wait for a late season breeding...or even the next season.

The price you paid for the animal should have NO BEARING on your decision about breeding/stress/health management.
We are talking about live animals here. Regardless of the monetary value that YOU place on the animal, YOU have the responsibility to correctly manage and monitor the health and well being of these animals.

I have allowed breeding of some young males with great results. I have also had males that needed to wait a another season. It is a matter of sound judgment and close management on the breeder's part.
Remember: We do not breed snakes. They do the breeding!
We just like to watch. lol.
Some males need another season just to figure it all out.
Others...are READY....we manage that activity for their well being.

Your friend,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
970-255-9255

"The act of copulation will not cause death in a young male!"

It only feels like it for a minute
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

In my experience, I have always gotten a yearling male to at least 600-700 grams before attempting to have him breed. But even at that size, it appears that the brain is often just not mature enough to be in "breeding mode". I have rarely had a young male actually perform copulation successfully. They seem to "not have a clue" to why they are in this cage with this other snake! I now wait until at least two years of age to attempt breeding a male.

no post

my "laugh out loud" was directed at Brad's comment.
Yep! Feels like you are going to heaven for a minute!
Take care dude.
Harlin

Wow,

That is really great advice. You really have a gift for these snakes.

Bill
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0.1 Het Albino
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1.0 Albino
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2.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
0.1 Het Pied
1.0 Pied 50 percent
0.1 Clown
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1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Chocolate Lab

Could not have said it better. By following similar principle, I have a nice clutch incubating from a 500 gram male Fire.
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....

this is some stellar advise :bows:
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Chris & Alliey
www.bloodyleopard.com
E-mail Us

Hey,

I am not sure where all the info comes in from but when I started to get into breeding everyone told me a 400 to 600 gram male can breed a female. I have not yet had this happen. I have not had any copulations. The same thing you have seen is what I get. I put my male in with the female and he lays on her or she lays on him and he looks confused on why he is with this other snake that is huge and keeps on coiling up around him. I have made many friends in the ball breeding hobby and the thing I hear mostly is that it is really not weight. It is definitely maturity. A friend of mine spent three years trying to get a clutch and he got nothing. He bought many snakes his first year and was getting very restless when in his third year he still was getting nothing...Everyone said he would get a clutch in year one or year two. But no results for his efforts. Than in year 4 everything hit. Every group copulated, he had more clutches than he knew what to do with. And every year after has been bountiful. So he definitely thinks that maturity is king when it comes to breeding. I guess is what I am saying is that you really need to let your males mature if you are looking for some good breeding action.

Good luck,
Bill
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0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Spider Het Albino
1.0 Albino
0.1 Spinner
2.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
0.1 Het Pied
1.0 Pied 50 percent
0.1 Clown
1.1 Het Lavenders
1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Chocolate Lab

"But I am saying that you need to put your male with a girl who has nice follicular development. You need to palpate (I like to feel large grape sized follicles) Or use an ultrasound.
Putting that young male with a female who is not ready...is wasting valuable time for everyone involved (snakes and keepers)."

i have never bred any kind of snakes befor so sorry if this sounds like a dumb question. i have 3 female and 2 male ball pythons that should be ready to breed this season. how often do the females produce fallicles, is it only once a year when you cycle them to breed? and i have never palpated a snake so if i have trouble feeling the fallicles is there another way to know when to introduce the male/males? btw my males are not young they are both well over 2 years of age and have good weight on them. oh and the smallest female was alittle over 1600 grams last time she was weighed.

Hey,

Yes, they do redevelop their follicles more than once a year. I felt nice size follicles in February and they were absorbed and now in June and July she has nice sized follicles again. I have put my male in with her each time and I get nothing. And believe me I have the VPI book, I have talked with atleast 10 breeders and they all have told me I have been flawless in my setups. I am certain my male is just not ready. He is an 07 and he now weighs 900 grams. If he does not breed this winter than I got a total dud male. I am very confident that I will have eggs this winter with him. By the way I put at the bottom of my reply the link to Ralph Davis showing how to palpate. I watched it and then checked myself and felt the follicles no problem. The only thing I would tell you is this. You do not have to squeeze the snake hard. If the follicles are large enough you will feel them with just medium pressure on the snake. If you have to squeeze really hard than they are really small or not there.

Good Luck,
Bill R.

RDR Showing how to palpate

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0.1 Het Albino
0.1 Spider Het Albino
1.0 Albino
0.1 Spinner
2.1 Super Pastel
0.1 Jungle Pastel
0.1 Het Pied
1.0 Pied 50 percent
0.1 Clown
1.1 Het Lavenders
1.1 Het Caramel Albino
0.3 Normal
1.1 Kids
0.1 Spouse
1.0 Chocolate Lab