Reptile & Amphibian Forums

And other large potentially dangerous constrictors...if so should there be requirements for pet stores to disclose size of animal and the proper cage required as an adult?

This is for good conversation only To keep it on topic what about boas for that matter.
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

No, and yes in my opinion. I personally feel that many of the "problem owners" bought from pet stores. Now, I say that with caution, because I know that there are many responsible breeders that own and operate reptile/exotic stores. I personally know breeders that have refused sale to people they did not feel were educated enough, experienced enough or mature enough to keep a large constrictor. I highly respect that. So, it is hard to completely say, "No, pet stores should not sell large constrictors".

If the "common" pet store sells large constrictors then I think that there should be some form of "registry". This "registery" doesn't need to be governmental. A form that clearly states the adult size of the animal, potential temperment, cage requirements (locks, size), etc. that must be signed may just deter that potentially irresponsible or naive buyers from purchasing. I don't know...I just wish that there was a way to prevent the people that aren't going to be able to properly keep the animal from buying the animal, then "dumping it" or it gets loose. Soooo frustrating.

Just my opinions. Thanks for posting. This, and the earlier post, have encouraged opinions of sensitive topics.
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Cheers,
Jessica Gibbs
Ball Pythons; Corn Snakes; Green Tree Python; Jungle Carpet Pythons; Bci; Bcl
3.0 Crazy Dogs and 2.0 cats
Some Tropical Fish
...........and growing!

"Most" have no business selling such animals, I understand your reluctance to agree or disagree
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

Depends on the reason for the "discussion". Is it to get another offering on the plate? Take away imports and make it illegal for them to be sold by petstores? That would be a mistake in my opinion. If you have that, then they simply make it a law that in order to sell reptiles legally in general, you must possess a petshop license. Neither or these things solve the problem. Some petshops shouldn't have snakes, and neither should some people. Same is true with any animal.

I agree about pet shops probably being the source of many
'Impulse' type sales.

To be completely honest I've seen many, many times more pet shops
with boas crammed into small aquariums and poorly cared for than
shops that are responsible.

My main concern is that boas do not get lumped in with those
giant pythons when that hammer hits the gavel...

Or could go the other way...like look they are so dangerous even pet shops wont/cant sell them.
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

To me thats like asking if gun stores should sell guns because they are dangerous. I'm big with the responsible ownership of snakes. To me, that includes walking around with snakes in public. In my opinion, it should'nt be done. Period. Why would a pet store be more or less culpable than any of us? There are many bad pet stores out there BUT, there are many many good ones as well. I have witnessed plenty of breeders selling retics and burms to KIDS at shows and I'm quite sure many people do not check the local laws when purchasing them through the internet. Its the same story here in NY. Burms and Retics have been illegal as of Jan 05 yet I still see IDIOTS walking around with them draped over their shoulders in April when its 65 degrees out. I gave up trying to school everyone of these dopes. I used to tell them that even if you dont care that some people are mortally afraid of snakes, 65 degrees is too damn cold out for the animal. Bring it inside and get it warmed up. But now, I mind my own business. Anyway, we have to be careful and not start pointing fingers at any group or groups. Just my opinion. Mike Panichi
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honesty is my only policy

I do feel that there are some pet shops that actually educate people before they purchase suuch an animal...but I know that most do not.

Even the good shops have people that work there that have never had hands on experience with an adult python.

I am going to attempt to "shoot holes" in your comparison in which you say that is like a gun store not selling guns....guns don't eat and guns certainly can not act alone.
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

I agree, guns dont eat and guns dont kill people, people kill people. My point is, responsible ownership. Whats happening with burms or any other animal that gets to large and/or dangerous is definately not the petstores fault. I believe we shouldnt even go there. Mike
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honesty is my only policy

sorry Mike just giving you a little ribbing It was done in good fun.

Yes bottom line is irresponsibility killed that child earlier this month, and you are 100% correct a pet store was not at fault....it was an idiot and you can't fix that affliction...well you can but the cure is currently illegal

That story is also proof that a permit and chipping system will only regulate the honest and will do nothing to prohibit the idiots!
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

In this society driven by what's politically correct we try to remove liability from ourselves when it comes to products we push that may pose a harmfull reaction. Maybe these stores should have there own surgeon general warning when it comes to the products they sale. Seems like everything these days does. Even a child car seat.

Like having the word HOT on my Mcdonalds coffee cup LOL...

I like the way you think!
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

Surprisingly my local pet shop requires that you acquire a permit to also buy baby boas, monitors and other large reptiles. I have not asked or looked into it that much but they do have signs posted. I am not sure if they just have them posted for legal purposes but they do post them.

That is interesting I would like to research the information on this...thanks.
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

I live in southern California. The weird thing is that they have two shops and they both have permit signs posted on large reptiles. The other pet shops and actual reptile shops in my area don't have anything posted.

is it a city or town ordinance...maybe?
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

I'll start by saying that many pet shops shouldn't be in business for failing to practice or preach proper husbandry and safety guidelines for their animals, just as there are some private individuals who do the same.
I run a reptile shop on the side and I do sell Retics, Burms, Water Monitors and even Albino Atrox in my store. I am completely honest with my customers when they ask about these animals. They are not good first pets, they are expensive to keep, they take up a lot of space and some grow to sizes that are easily overpowering to a single person. I refuse service to anyone that doesn't seem fit to keep these animals because it isn't worth what negativity one of the few irresponsible keepers can do to our hobby. This hobby is great because these animals thrive better in captivity than they would in the wild, and kept responsibly, I believe we should be allowed to keep them. There are people that are capable and experienced enough to keep large constrictors. If they want a 20 ft snake and can care for it safely, then they should have that freedom. I may sell 4 Retics and 300 Ball Pythons a year but that's how it should be. I offer that in the event that a customer can't keep their pet anymore, I will buy it or at least take it for free if in good health. Should I not be allowed to sell these but private breeders can? I agree that people should put more thought into how or to who they sell their potentially dangerous animals but even now, serious injury or death is extremely uncommon, much less than the furry pets that aren't under fire.

i worked in pet shops from the age of 13 through my early twenties...the first shop I worked I was encouraged to keep the animals best interest in mind and I was supported by the owner if I felt I should refuse a sale...Great lady

I have also worked in shops that would have fired me for refusing a sale

I helped start a reptile based pet shop that was funded by an albino burm breeding program and the breeders were on display at the store....something the public had never seen.

I know the owner of this store to be a person of very high morals and I support his and others like him their right to sell these animals.

Just last week end at a small local show I witnessed a young man (18-20) with a very young family buying a baby burm and a 30 gallon "reptile" tank from a pet store vendor...on the same thought I saw many private people selling burms and retics as well.

here is the one that really rubs me wrong there were people selling American alligators.
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

Yes, Pet shops should sell large constrictors!

It is my opinion that we of the reptile industry play into the hands of the adversary. We all know that Large constrictors start out as small constrictors! Very ...Very Important!!

Once they ban something it is near impossible to get it back!

Now here in NY state we lost the Big Constrictors such as Burmese, Retics and Anacondas...they will be missed greatly...and although, I do think anything over 12 feet is un-handleable, but I just don't like people telling me what I can or can't have.

Large Boa Constrictors are Harmless...please share even just one confirmed death where a Redtail was the cause....I'm not saying it has never happened, I just would like to see documentaion...not hear-say.

Just my 2 cents here....

Think SMART!

Andy Federico

Reptile World!!
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I am glad you commented...please know this is not directed at responsible shop owners such as your self.

I personaly think that most pet shops should not sell thes large constrictors but I still defend their right to do so.
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

I agree Andy. I also think this entire thread should be removed. Sorry Joel, I do though. Mike Panichi
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honesty is my only policy

When I was younger (around 17 or 18) I worked for a local pet store that was very responsible. She wouldn't carry large constritors (burms, retics, anacondas, etc.), monitors, or even green iguanas in her store at all.

Now what she would do is order them for you if she thought you were responsible enough and educated enough to truly care for them.

What I hate is that most people buy animals on impulse or for gifts for there kids. By not having the animals in the store on display you take away the impulse part of the sale.

I think we as responsible keepers and breeders need to try and keep these animals out of irresponsible peoples hands.

I don't think a large boa would truly try and harm even a small child. The boas in personally collection will tag me during feeding but will let go immediately after doing so. I've been tagged by some large pythons (burm and retic)of the same size and they would try and eat my hand.

I think boas know they can't eat you but large pythons just have an instinct to eat large prey items. Now realize this is just my personal experience and belief and is in NO way scientific.

To stay on topic: I believe that anyone responsible should be able to keep large pythons but they should also be responsible for what the animal does.

A little off topic but I wanted to share. I keep large breeds of dogs and to do so and to keep my home owners insurance my insurance company made me have a minimum of a 5 foot tall fence. So I, as a responsible large dog breed owner agreed with them.
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Greg Bennett

Here are a few points to consider. I may be off base here some, but I felt the need to reply.

Even if you had guidelines to go by when purchasing a large constrictor, like this guy in florida had, How can a seller actually prove a bad keeper from a responsible keeper? I'm talking iron clad proof that it is going into the right hands when sold?

I know that you can refuse a sale to a minor if you choose to. I think there should be a release signed and notorized by a parent with proof of i.d. if they feel like their little Billy or Janey can deal with it with their help and guidance.

How can breeders/sellers, or sellers help to regulate who gets what?

Pricing reflects that. A high priced animal is less likely to fall into the wrong hands, but the market has been flooded with many morphs and everyone knows the price goes down...not to mention the economy sucks right now. On the same hand though why should someone who would be a responsible keeper yet can not afford a higher priced morph get one? Payment plans are a good start, but what if they are seriously income challenged and it was the only thing they wanted? How long do payment plans run for from keeper to keeper? Is there a maximum time limit?

Is the a breeders association? If there is not, why not? I think that would be one step in the right direction. I'm not talking about a group to fight for our rights such as USARK. I'm talking about a regulatory type group made up of breeders and sellers to work together on the presale guidelines to kind of level out the guidelines for sales in general. I'm not talking about driving or keeping the prices out of the range of the little guy. How many of you keep records of who was sold what? I know I know, it's more work, but would it help?

Pet stores are a harder thing to wrangle, but I think it could be done. There would be some hard cases that were all about the money, but that would have to change. I've seen private businesses that were good and bad, and I have some chain stores that were as well. A lot depends on the people who own or work there. Petsmart does not carry larger snakes. Petco carries nothing larger than a Columbian boa...at least here anyways. Privately owned stores carry what makes money for them. It just depends on what kind of motives drive the store and what kind of morals the owners/workers have. It's a long hard road to get everyone to march to the same drum beat, and there will always be someone who wants to be different.

I guess I am done rambling. It probably only sounded good to me anyway. LOL! Thanks for reading anyways.

Daniel
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1.0 100% het columbian
0.1 pastel columbian
0.1 hypo columbian
0.1 guyana
0.1 surinam
0.2 jcp
1.0 irian jaya
1.1.1 normal balls
1.0 granite al burm
0.1 granite het al burm
0.1 albino burm
1.0 sunfire retic
0.2 tiger retics

I guess I am just trying to say that it is really hard to regulate this matter all together. I guess that's why we have USARK fighting for us. Maybe in a perfect world if they would tighten up on the law breakers and rule benders like they should things would go smoother. If you look at the list of animals in the collection listed below that my wife and I co-own, you see a large variety. It makes me sad to think that I may have to give up on trying to keep these animals and turn them over to the authorities or something because of bad publicity from elsewhere and rotten politicians who want to speak for everyone, but don't really speak for anyone but themselves. I don't need big brother to tell me what to do. My wife doesn't either. That's what makes it so hard to swallow.
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1.0 100% het albino columbian
0.1 pastel columbian
0.1 hypo columbian
0.1 guyana
0.1 surinam
0.2 jcp
1.0 irian jaya
1.1.1 normal balls
1.0 granite al burm
0.1 granite het al burm
0.1 albino burm
1.0 sunfire retic
0.2 tiger retics

most pet stores in my area are pretty responsible usually dont carry retics,burms.I find more impulse buying and shading dealers at reptile shows,some will sell to young teens with no knowledge.Just what i've seen and have been keeping and breeding for 20 years.Take care all

I have been an avid herper for 40 years now, I have owned a retail pet store and I did sell a few large constrictors out of my store. I have always had a policy both out of my store and off my farm that if one can no longer properly care for an animal they purchase from me they may turn it back over to me. I have had most of the large constrictors(potential to be over 10 feet)that I sold come back to me when they reach the 8 to 10 foot range. I personally have decided not to stock or advertise the very large type snakes such as the Burmese, Retic and Rock pythons. However, I would hate to see a ban on pet stores selling these or any non-venomous species. I do acknowledge that some pet stores are motivated by the quick buck from the quick sale but I believe most are more responsible and look toward long term success. As soon as we start micro managing what we can and can't have buy or sell it gets to be a matter of the most responsible people will abide by the laws and will not have it but the irresponsible people will ignore the rules and want it all the more. Now we have an increase in problems due to more of these animals in the hands of those that should not have them. It is the responsibility of the herp community to first be responsible keepers and second to educate and supervise the up and coming herp enthusiasts.