Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why now is it possible for me to count the number of Thayeri breeders in the nation on two hands?.......This may be an exaggeration, but it is certainly not like it used to be.

I remember when nearly every snake keeper had a breeding pair of thayeri just for the plain fact that they were variable....

Does anyone think this "bloodline" thing has turned off some keepers / breeders?

I hope not.....I do like to think that what we are working with are 'pure' thayeri.

I work with Dan Vermilya, Evan Stahl, Tim Gebhart and Louis Torres bloodlines.....
Is this sufficient to say that I am working with 'pure' thayeri or must one trace lineage back to a Blody, Sipperly, Applegate or Garstka and the such?

Or can we say we have David Weymouth, Maria Heidkamp, Michelle Rogers or Chris Garcia bloodlines?

There are definitely new / different 'eras' of snake breeders.

This is all kinda new to me since the whole "Bloodline" thing erupted while I was dormant from the hobby.

We as snake keepers / breeders used to know how to count scales, compare relic pics, look at head shapes/patterns and we could tell if something was a hybrid cross or not. I hope this art hasn't been lost.

I know for a fact that when someone hatches out a true albino thayeri there will be 75% or more non believers than those who actually believe the breeder.

These are just some thoughts I had to 'get off my chest'....

I will certainly only purchase thayeri from the 'known' breeders of 'pure' thayeri. I will also have to advertise my offspring as their stock because THIS IS THE NORM now....

Maybe someday there will be Jlassiter, Michelle Rogers, Chris Flowers, Aubrey Ross, Jonel Lopez, Shannon Brown, Todd Hughes and CSRAJim stock, but I guess for now it has to be stock from someone who did this way before we did.....

I would love to hear some views on this since I was absent when this erupted......Now I guess I have to find Forky's website and become a Bonafide Thayeri Breeder......Which is no problem for me as I know all my thayeri are "pure."
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

only the breeders that can trace their lines and have photo documentation of such will be considered "pure" line breeders, there are so many people working with these animals now, it is almost impossible to know what is what. look at the alterna fiasco last week. Joe has the eye on the mexicana now and has been involved in them from the inception, but to say these animals are pure is, well, questionable many times, How many posts have had, That one looks to have a little ruthie in it, or mex-mex, lots of questions. I have some line bred Vivids and some other animals that I consider "pure" but I have questionable animals as well, they aren't being bred, ever, they were something I bought then considered not good enough. Or were acquired in a trade, wonder why, lol! I hope to get on Joe's list by tuning the animals I buy from reputable breeders that can trace their stock. When Frank Retes said, back in the day when we were collecting the firsts, many were thrown together in the collecting bag, till they would get them back to camp. They didn't even know what some of them were, and breedings took place, or there were no locality matches and localities were mixed just to produce. These animals may or may not be pure, who knows? What I do know is that they are beautiful snakes, can be bred for specific traits, (pin band, low black, etc.) but can you really know? The lines are blurring as I hear reports from people studying all the mexicana that crosses occur naturally and they are in a quandary about it all. Alterna, mex-mex, ruthveni and thayeri, are they the same animal, just local variance? Thayeri and alterna are super close, just some ??? myself. Not to mention the purposeful hybrid breeders out to make a pretty snake, then stock gets sold, someone gets tired of the project and they enter back in to the gene pool. I believe there are some good people working with thayeri out there, and most are here, and it is good that people like Joe are watching out for the oddballs coming in. It sets me right when Joe took some my animals for himself, makes me feel like I did my homework the best I could and chose a breeder that exemplifies what we are about. You know me John, locality to a fault, except for the pretty morphs like the ww specks and a couple hypo floridana. Still, if I didn't catch it, or know who caught it, I won't consider it locality or pure. The Mexican animals fall into the other category, what else could they be? The Mexican bairdi are one of those kinds, I know what they are, I know who caught them, I know where the breeder got the stock from and they throw duplicates of the parents.
With all the inbreeding, it surprises me the albinos haven't surfaced yet.

-----
Todd Hughes

When you say that there are a lot of people breeding them now I have to dis agree....Compared to years ago there are less people breeding them now...

And...I agree with nearly everything you posted...Especially the part about the old breeders breeding Mexicana to Mexicana no matter what locale they were (Durange, Nuevo Leon, West Texas, Queratero, San Luis Potosi and Valle De Los Fantasmas)....

But there are still ways to know what you have are pure or not....Some of this art is lost since most folks just believe whatever the breeder tells them....

Regards,
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

well, there are tons of underground breeders out there, when you said nearly everyone had at least a pair, you weren't kidding, what has changed? Only the fact that most people don't advertise the fact. All those snakes went somewhere or have since died, but where are all these babies going? Surely the ten of us don't have them all!!! Hoarders! Show your hidden thayeri, dammit! LOL!
Yep, if you know who you're dealing with and do your homework you can come up with some great leads.
-----
Todd Hughes

I remember when Don Shores, Mike Price, Frank Retes, David Weymouth, Don Soderberg, Kim Caldwell, Bob Clark, Kathy Love, Dan Vermilya, Jim Sargent and many others had at least one pair of thayeri they bred for simple fact of not knowing what would hatch out of every clutch....Kinda like the morph craze that is going on now...They've since moved onto their desired projects.....

And when I mentioned "ten" above I did state I was exaggerating....Maybe it's 20 now....LOL

Regards,
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

reviewing the classifieds all over reveals a lot of hidden breeders, as you well know, I was talking about the people who don't advertise, they are word of mouth, and plentiful.
-----
Todd Hughes

I hoard thayeri...lol...
Its a very bad addiction, I need help
-----
Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

haha, Michelle, you can lean on us for "support" in y(our) current dilemma!
-----
Todd Hughes

Thank you Todd, I am weak and I need all the support I can get...lol...Lime green thayeri are right now my weakness and lots of alternates can't be passed up...lol...Lets not forget the black mex mex either!
HELP!!!!
-----
Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

>>Thank you Todd, I am weak and I need all the support I can get...lol...Lime green thayeri are right now my weakness and lots of alternates can't be passed up...lol...Lets not forget the black mex mex either!
>>HELP!!!!

Too Funny.....That's exactly what I like right now.....LOL
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

>>I hoard thayeri...lol...
>>Its a very bad addiction, I need help

You know Michelle the first step of the 12 step program is to admit you have a problem........Hehe

I think we all have addictive personalities here....Good thing the only thing this harms is our pocketbooks.....LOL

If you need the help we are here for ya....Box them up and quit cold turkey......You have my address.....HA!
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

****Maybe someday there will be Jlassiter, Michelle Rogers, Chris Flowers, Aubrey Ross, Jonel Lopez, Shannon Brown, Todd Hughes and CSRAJim stock, but I guess for now it has to be stock from someone who did this way before we did..... ****

HORRAY I SEE MY NAME I'M A FREAKN CELEBRITY!!!








MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

>>****Maybe someday there will be Jlassiter, Michelle Rogers, Chris Flowers, Aubrey Ross, Jonel Lopez, Shannon Brown, Todd Hughes and CSRAJim stock, but I guess for now it has to be stock from someone who did this way before we did..... ****
>>
>>
>>
>>HORRAY I SEE MY NAME I'M A FREAKN CELEBRITY!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>MIDWESTERN MONSTERS
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Sheese John..who knew you were such a deep thinker?...LOL

My thoughts as a "newbie" to the hobby but not to business, is this, it's all marketing..the people you mentioned are breeders/sellers that "get their names out there"..on the forums, posting pics, going to shows, advertising, etc. Selling their wares and gaining reputations, earning trust..it's hard work and they deserve the credit.

As you and others may know , Chris Flowers and I have become friends via this hobby..I've seen his animals and I covet most of them..we've dealt in trades/sales and I got a great deal on a few of his animals {so he tells me.. LOL}.. {still hurts to sit at times}.. but i digress..LOL. We were talking a while back and I told him that if I produce anything down the line with them, I'd call them the "flowers line" from evansexoticenterprise..not the "vivid" or "bauble" or whatever line he said they were from. I don't know any of those guys. Their names mean squat to me..never dealt with them. Probably never will...but I have with Chris, and a few other names that are "known" today. So when he asked if I'd call them the "midwestern monster" line, I understood what he was meaning..it's his business name and he's marketing his animals for a business, not as his hobby anymore, but as a business, a business that he loves and is putting a great effort into it's building.

Little did he know that I was just covering my bases down the line , so if some "purist" who should happen to buy from me, asks about the lineage of my animals, that all I have to do is tell them "midwestmonster line" and to contact them about it. He can field the 4 a.m. phone calls from somebody in China about his line..LOL.

So in a nutshell..yes..call them yours.."Lassiter Line"..has a nice ring to it..take care
-----
Richard Evans

no not THAT one

>>My thoughts as a "newbie" to the hobby but not to business, is this, it's all marketing..the people you mentioned are breeders/sellers that "get their names out there"..on the forums, posting pics, going to shows, advertising, etc. Selling their wares and gaining reputations, earning trust..it's hard work and they deserve the credit.

I've done all this around the time this site started in the mid 90s till 2005....

>>As you and others may know , Chris Flowers and I have become friends via this hobby..I've seen his animals and I covet most of them..we've dealt in trades/sales and I got a great deal on a few of his animals {so he tells me.. LOL}.. {still hurts to sit at times}.. but i digress..LOL. We were talking a while back and I told him that if I produce anything down the line with them, I'd call them the "flowers line" from evansexoticenterprise..not the "vivid" or "bauble" or whatever line he said they were from. I don't know any of those guys. Their names mean squat to me..never dealt with them. Probably never will...but I have with Chris, and a few other names that are "known" today. So when he asked if I'd call them the "midwestern monster" line, I understood what he was meaning..it's his business name and he's marketing his animals for a business, not as his hobby anymore, but as a business, a business that he loves and is putting a great effort into it's building.

I was never intending this post towards Chris Flowers...I know of all his bloodlines and have posted in some threads about his Midwestern Monster line and agreed that if we buy from 'pure' bloodlines that we should be able to call them our line...Since most of us are outcrossing 'pure' bloodlines (Vivid X Vermilya and such)....

>> So in a nutshell..yes..call them yours.."Lassiter Line"..has a nice ring to it..take care

I've always called mine Lassiter Line thayeri.....And always answered questions toward their lineage....
Some of you guys don't know about what I used to breed...I was absent for 3 or 4 years and just want to be on the Up and Up....

Regards,
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

***I was never intending this post towards Chris Flowers...I know of all his bloodlines and have posted in some threads about his Midwestern Monster line and agreed that if we buy from 'pure' bloodlines that we should be able to call them our line...Since most of us are outcrossing 'pure' bloodlines (Vivid X Vermilya and such)....***

ITS COOL JOHN I DONT MIND LOL

MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

John..please don't take umbrage to my post.. I meant no disrespect to you, hell, I see one of your animals every time I log onto the kingsnake forums..talk about "marketing"...LOL.

I am probably one of the oldest newbies here..but I guess I can call you "old timer"..right? I'm just getting to know the crowd also..and having fun doing so.( pssst watch out for that Todd/gazelle guy..bad news if ya ask me.)

Again, I am sorry if I offended you, unless I took your reply wrong..in that case, I'm sorry I made the mistake.(damn, this is hard on the knees)..I should learn to keep my mouth shut. take care
-----
Richard Evans

no not THAT one

>>John..please don't take umbrage to my post.. I meant no disrespect to you, hell, I see one of your animals every time I log onto the kingsnake forums..talk about "marketing"...LOL.

That's funny.....When I returned to Kingsnake recently I was amazed that picture was still there....

>> I am probably one of the oldest newbies here..but I guess I can call you "old timer"..right? I'm just getting to know the crowd also..and having fun doing so.( pssst watch out for that Todd/gazelle guy..bad news if ya ask me.)

Now now.....I'm not that old....LOL
And Todd....He's okay...just addicted..Good thing these snakes aren't crack...Hehe (Gazelle....ROFLMAO!!!!) He's more like a Pronghorn....LOL

>> Again, I am sorry if I offended you, unless I took your reply wrong..in that case, I'm sorry I made the mistake.(damn, this is hard on the knees)..I should learn to keep my mouth shut. take care

Not offended at all....It is hard to come across correctly while typing / reading....I take it all in stride.....And...I think keeping your mouth shut is the WRONG thing to do on this forum...I / we enjoy hearing everyone's views....

Just remember there are many people breeding snakes.....We only see a Tiny snapshot of them on these forums....

Regards,
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

yes pronghorn, exactly. I took the moniker from Boy Scouts Wood badge course many years ago, loud 'n' proud, lol! Even though antelopes are s'posed to be quiet, lol!
-----
Todd Hughes

that's gazellephant to you Richard!
-----
Todd Hughes

**** I am probably one of the oldest newbies here..but I guess I can call you "old timer"..right? I'm just getting to know the crowd also..and having fun doing so.( pssst watch out for that Todd/gazelle guy..bad news if ya ask me.) ***

HE IS A OLD TIMER LOL!!!! TODD DONT LET THE OLD MAN LABEL YOU, HES LOSSING HIS MARBLES, HE IS DUBBING HIS UP AND COMING MBK LINE THE "BLACK WIDOW LINE" BECAUSE HE FED HIS MALE TO HIS FEMALE?!?!?

BUT HE DOES HAVE SOME NICE THAYERI, HERES SOME OF HIS.


I JUST HOPE THIS DOESNT TURN INTO A "BLACK WIDOW LINE"
MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

LMAO..indeed!!..I can always count on you for a good laugh Todd, thanks..BTW, talked to Chris today..heard your order is going out soon & he said I could send a couple items with it..just close your eyes and reach into the box when it arrives...

Trust me...(evil grin)
-----
Richard Evans

no not THAT one

Richard, you know that's not funny, I already have one partial missing digit, and I just got back in town, my email was loaded with what's in the box? Lol, Do I need my tongs? Yikes!
-----
Todd Hughes

I think a lot of people have stepped away from breeding thayeri and went on to new projects, The variability is attractive but since there really isn't much new blood out there they have decided to change focus.
I admit I personally think no collection is complete with out a pair of thayeri or more!
But this isn't how everyone feels, Corns have a lot of variability as do amazon tree boas and now look what's happened with ball pythons.
I believe some people got out due to thayeri not marketing very well. Who knows. I am just glad there are still behind the scenes breeders and people still breeding them.
I really don't think it is the "pure bloodline thing" though, I think we have always looked out for pure animals. But I do think the hybrid craze and the fact that there are hybrid animals being advertised as pure is what sparked Joe's breeder page and is what sparked the "pure bloodline thing". Not everyone knows how to count scales and not all new comers will know what to look for so I believe knowing who is who out there is a good thing. John you and I pass hyrbid post through emails all the time, but think about all the people who are buying them that don't know they are hybrids and when they post, "hey look at my new thayeri or mex mex or greeri" and some one post you are mistaken that's not a pure animal and then tells them it is a hybrid, that person is really bummed.
This is one reason I lay it all out on what's in my animals, so that the buyer knows what he or she is getting. Its not a "blood line thing" so much as it is a way to distinguish pure lines from hybrid lines,
I have always been a scale counter and compared head patterns. I still do, I compare every animal no matter who its from, just to look for possible locality differences, I guess its out of habit and something I enjoy, or because I am a stickler for detail.
I am not worried about a Michelle Rogers thayeri I believe just being the breeder of pure thayeri is enough for me.
For the final word, I will admit there are some people out there that honestly represent their hybrid animals as well as their pure lines. These are not the people I am talking about so please no one take offense.
But this is just my 2 cents.
-----
Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

I will say that I fell in love with Thayeri 3-4years ago when Chris Gracia posted a thread of pics called "ugly thayeri" or something like that. I was amazed how you could take a animal that had saddles and a msp and get?!?!? God knows what!!!
Shortly after that I emailed him and ended up buying a trio of adults from him. One of those girls was Ester my baby. I have sold her once to Charlie and bought her back once... man that's kinda like me and my wife we were married 5 years got divorced for two then got remarried... LOL anyways

95% of my ADULT stock came from good deals I got from CHARLIE, and he did his very best giving me all the background on them he got.

I will continue to market them as best as I know background wise but to me a NICE THAYERI IS JUST THAT A NICE THAYERI no matter whos blood they have in them.

Heres the trio I got from Chris Garica, I still have Ester but I believe Charlie has the other two still.

MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

There are many animals in this hobby now with a "name" attached to a bloodline. Some of these names are coveted, regardless of what the animal looks like. To a person who does this just as a hobby (though an expensive one) like myself there is another problem if you don't buy from "known" lines.

I don't make any money from the snakes I breed, I've gotten lucky from time to time with some higher end animals, but it doesn't compare to what I've spent on equipment, food, other animals, etc.. over the years. I do this solely for the enjoyment/challenge of keeping and especially breeding the animals.

Now the problem, when you breed you have to be able to find homes for the offspring. That can be a challenge. I hatch out a few albino ball pythons and bam, they are sold. Now try to sell a normal looking het or poss het sibling. Good luck. I love the few hondurans I have, but I don't breed them now, nearly impossible to get rid of the young. Certain animals are just nearly impossible to sell.

I see people on this forum, and usually just from posts, I have a certain trust in them. The problem falls later, let's say I buy a pair of thayeri from someone on here who isn't "known" (hate that word big time but...) I can guarantee later if I breed them, someone will say, "what bloodline is that?" If my answer isn't Vivid, Applegate, etc.. that would be the end of a lot of transactions. Not because I don't have great animals, but because of vagueness.

I've spent probably too much money now getting some spectacular thayeri from Vivid the last few years, including a nice F1, and green earthtone animals. They are not necessarily any better than what anyone else produces, but I can prove where they came from, and in the end, when I breed them for my own pleasure, I hope it lets me find a home for the offspring.

It's been a hard lesson learned for a small breeder like myself, but when you basically have to start asking people if they want animals for free, or else not breed at all, it's tough. Try to sell a normal cornsnake and see how well it goes.

I'd really like to hear everyone's thoughts on this. I truly have reduced what I even think to breed these days because of how hard it can be to get rid of young, oh, and it's not really possible for me to go to shows and so on, so I really rely on the internet. That leads to other problems I know, but my collection is broad, but what I breed is somewhat dictated by what I know I can find a home for (GTP, Greybands, albino balls and next year, thayeri and rare asian ratsnakes)

Brian

exactly so, I myself work with only locality southwestern animals, the thayeri are the only ones I can't trace back to the original breeders. That doesn't worry me much because there may not be any "pure" lines. They are pure thayeri (maybe) but not locality. Even on a large ranch, one hill might have a population entirely unique, etc. but they are (probably) all thayeri, lol. I have a few eastern type kings, but they are for fun. Alterna, thayeri, splendida, some holbrooki, and southwestern type rat snakes for me. I wanted a niche that I would love to work with and not feel completely overwhelmed. Today's prize more often than not is tomorrows trash, fads in the morph biz fade rather quickly and animals don't hold their value long. A great looking thayeri is hard to beat, as well as mex-mex, I think ruthveni has been overdone but they are very pretty. I love these animals and I can get rid of my surplus, my problem will always be which ones and how many am I going to let go, lol?!!

-----
Todd Hughes

Brian, I believe we need to label these animals as far back as we can trace them. If they came from Vivid and Dan Vermiliya. And thats as far back as we can go , then we need to label them as such. This is good enough for me. These are well respected Thayeri breeders. A few stated above that they would label them by the name of whatever breeder they came from whoever it is. I think that is foolish. The label will change as every generation is sold. When a breeder sells thayeri, he should have some idea and should have a very good idea of where all his animals came from. If a breeder can't give me information on an animal I want to buy, no matter how nice looking, I'm going to pass. In this day and age, if anyone is buying animals from breeders who don't have a decent history on their animals, then how in the world are you going to sell your babies?. First question your going to get, like Brian stated is what is their history. There are some lines of thayeri that can be traced back to original wc parents by the way. And there are many breeders that keep a good history on where their stock came from. The history of an animal may not be able to be traced all the way back to it's original wc relatives , but can be traced to very responsible thayeri breeders who cares and want as pure a line of animals as they can reasonably get. This will have to suffice these days. But the notion of renaming animals every time they change hands and are bred is silly.....Mike Bodner

****A few stated above that they would label them by the name of whatever breeder they came from whoever it is. I think that is foolish. The label will change as every generation is sold When a breeder sells thayeri, he should have some idea and should have a very good idea of where all his animals came from. If a breeder can't give me information on an animal I want to buy, no matter how nice looking, I'm going to pass. In this day and age, if anyone is buying animals from breeders who don't have a decent history on their animals, then how in the world are you going to sell your babies?****

I have and will continue to label them as best I know, heck outta all the babies I sold this year 4 had one of your animals as the mother and that was good enough for the buyers. Since
I have 3 breeder animals that came from "your stock" and were sold to me as "your stock"... what are you saying that you don't want me to tell people the are "Bodner" animals? Below is the 3. This doesnt make much since to me, I see people say all the time, this is a "blank" stock and this is a "blank" stock... So is this goin to turn into the GBK market where if you dont know what hwy in what county of what state its great great great granddad came from, your goin to have to sell it as a "generic"

I took these three animals because they are awesome animals, and they came from good people who in some way or another got them from you... maybe you can give the history on these three so I may better label the babies produced by them. So hold back the testosterone boys and lets play nice this is a good post, with lots of good info.

1st is Ester which was sold to me as a 04 Bodner F1
I got her from Chris Garica

2nd is another female that is a 05 Bodner that originally came from you? then to Adam then to Charlie, then to me...

Next is 07 "Bodner" that came originally from you? to Bill Corwin, to Charlie, then to me.

AND NO I AM NOT TAKING JABS AT YOU MIKE!!! I have spoke with you many times before, and I'm pretty sure you gave me more info on these animals. But My laptop has crashed 4 times in the past 2 yrs therefore I anymore info than I stated is lost.
So as I said before in my posts "I WILL CONTINUE TO LABEL THEM TO BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE" How would you want me to label my babies that came from parents of your stock?

MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

Like I said in my email.. I dug around and found some more background on one of the three animals that came from you.
The orange one was produced by you from Orange CheeK (vivid) and another Vivid animal.

So that laeves 2 more...Ester and that sweet grey w/ the hollow saddles I posted that i posted above.
Now I remember that we had a post about Ester befoe on here but I cant find it anymore.... Any info you have on these reamining 2 females would be awesome.

And again sorry if my post above sounded like I was taking a shot at ya. I just want to represent my Thayeri as best as I can.
Just ask Charlie how much i care about backgrounds hes still prolly has 1000 text messeges (from the past year) from me asking about background info. On ALL the animal I have gotten from him.

And again I think this whole thread is great even if we dont all see eye to eye.
Thanks

Chris, I'm just saying that when people say they have Mike Bodner stock I get a little uncomfortable. When I sell an animal I give the buyer a complete history as far back as I can of the parents and photos of parents. Whether they be Vivid , Applegate, Vermiliya etc. But those people have that info. Most of my breeders weren't born at my place. A few are but I can trace them back to someone. So I wish people would keep that info and info I gave them including clutch number for future reference. Putting my name on it (which there is nothing wrong with it) kind of loses the previous history of a particular animal........just my opinion of course.....mike

thats cool mike i see what your sayn. But can u give me more back ground on the other two animals that came from you please?

Sorry that last pic with the grey animal with the hollow saddles I asked Mike about is a MALE not a female....
Just thought Id let you all know...
Thanks

"Breeding line specific" and "Generic" should be our new terms.
Although many "lines" are now outcrossed they should still be 'labelled.'

I think in two years I should have an neonate from pairing up an Evan Stahl/Dan Vermilya X Louis Torres/Tim Gebhart.....

Do you think Tim and Dan ever used each others thayeri for pairings? Wasn't there a "Darkmoon" project years back between the two?
I think Joe Forks knows what I am speaking of...

So...I wonder if SOME VR strain offspring have some Dan Vermilya in them? And Vice Versa....

All I'm getting at is what we have is as pure as can be until we can go back to their ranges and collect some new blood.

And Mike is correct in stating that we must be able to truthfully be able to trace thayeri back to a responsible breeder and label them as that.....If you can sell them just by stating they came from Mike Bodner then that is great....Mike has made it a point to produce pure thayeri from reputable breeders of the past.....But you still must let them know what 'bloodlines' beyond that they come from.....at least as far back as you think is possible....

You see....I would stop at Vermilya or Gebhart...Some around here take it a few steps further....I can tell if a thayeri is a hybrid/cross...."Newbies" probably cannot....I think this is one of the purposes of this forum....

Maybe in the not so distant future our era will be the reputable breeders with bloodlines from reputable breeders....LOL
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

****I think in two years I should have an neonate from pairing up an Evan Stahl/Dan Vermilya X Louis Torres/Tim Gebhart****

Goodluck labeling that one lol
MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

>>****I think in two years I should have an neonate from pairing up an Evan Stahl/Dan Vermilya X Louis Torres/Tim Gebhart****
>>
>>Goodluck labeling that one lol
>>MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

That's the point I was trying to make......
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

>>****I think in two years I should have an neonate from pairing up an Evan Stahl/Dan Vermilya X Louis Torres/Tim Gebhart****
>>

What if I bred those offspring to a Sipperly/Hammack X Blody/Lemke offspring....

Would I really have to call them:

Stahl/Vermilya/Torres/Gebhart X Sipperly/Hammack/Blody/Lemke?

And so on and so on.....LOL

I think we should just do our best to tell buyers what bloodlines the offpsring are that they want to purchase....

"They come from pure lines of thayeri bred by so and so."

Maybe one day WE will be the REPUTABLE/RESPONSIBLE breeder with the line....Cause once the lines are outcrossed so many times they are a Selective Propagation of the keeper's choice.....

On another hand if we just breed Vermilya to Vermilya there would be no problem......But we would then have to find out about where the great, great grandparents of these were collected.....

We definitely cannot play the locality game (as with GBKs) with our thayeri.....We are playing the "BREEDING/BLOOD LINE SPECIFIC" or "GENERIC" game already........
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

dang, I guess I shot myself in the foot then, according to that set of philosophies John! I never intended to line breed my thayeri such as VividXVivid, because there are only so many animals going out with this detailed info available at any given time. And, I want to stay away from the possible genetic failures of spinal kinks and deformities as well as tiny babies.So I had in mind to mix great lines to great lines, generic, I would guess so, but if anyone could claim to have 100% locality animals and I would believe it, I could count them all on, you guessed it, my right hand! I know great husbandry makes for great snakes, but last years fiasco with other animals that were so far line bred (Mexican bairdi) because there aren't any other animals out there got me thinking it may well have been genetic, especially after the second clutch incubated at lower temps came out with deformities. I am not talking about my thayeri here, but I did get some awfully tiny babies from one clutch. This year was going to tell me more but I struck out with slugs and no eggs, go figure. I guess I'm gonna have to put Walt in the freezer this year, but Fred has been here acclimated since '03 and his first time out he knocked a grand slam out of the park. I'm confused, lol, nothing new!

-----
Todd Hughes

Mike, I respect you and love the work you do, haha, I have some of the animals you produced! And I agree that buying from trusted dealers is the way to go, with the buyer doing their homework to get what they need/want for their colonies, but like you said, there are a very few lines that can be traced back to originalm w.c. parents, and they are as good as it gets. But until someone legally is allowed to go back and field collect new blood, or acquires them legally like the Laredo line animals, there just isn't enough new blood or new animals entering in. How many VividXVivid, etc. animals can we produce until they are genetically nearly the same? I am not saying there is anything wrong with any of those animals, and like you, I fear there are many other crossed animals lurking in the wood shed. It takes a very careful eye, like Michelle stated, counting scales, studying head patterns, etc. and even then, some who are back crossing animals for their amusement or money are putting these animals back in. It is a sad thing that there are people out there that do this for the malicious fun of it, but it is a crazy world. Buyer beware! Mike, I'd buy animals from you all day long!!! Don't lower your prices! (Except for me!)
-----
Todd Hughes

Thanks for the kind words Todd...Mike

It's more a matter of honesty. When I was building my collection of thayeri, noone cared what bloodline it was from because it was considered a "trash snake" and they were all between 45 and 65 bucks.

I bred them all together to see if I could get brighter colors...that was the endgame, not biological purity or to further some breeder's name.

This "name" stuff is only valid if you maintain the names. If not, then you are obligated to call them your own, or you have lied and misrepresented them. No ego involved...anyone can toss two colubrids together and get a clutch. It ain't rocket science

-----
Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

Boy am I glad I threw my thought out there, what a great post this turned into.

Well, the way I look at it, Mike's thoughts really reflected mine. Why would we ever change the names if we can trace back a line. I want no credit, even if 20 years from now, I'm breeding these animals, they will still be Vivid, Applegate, etc..

I think the best way to do it, is to label them as far back as you know, but also have as much info on hand as you can. For now, all my animals except one come from Vivid directly, mainly because when I started my interest in Thayeri, I didn't know a lot of reputable breeders, and from years of experience with other snakes, I knew it was better to pay a little more for trustworthy stock.

So, if I produce animals, I'll call them Vivid line. If the one I didn't get directly from Vivid is a parent I will say to a potential buyer, "This is a Vivid line animal that I got from XXXXX." In other words, if I had one of Mike's animals, I'd say, "this is Vivid line that came from Mike Bodner." That way people know the line, and they know that it came from a trustworthy source. That's why it's still important, I wouldn't say Bodner line, but I'd sure include his name in it.

I think that is basically what Mike meant also when he said he wasn't comfortable when people say "Bodner line". It's not necessarily his line, but his work produced the animal.

Brian, That is exactly what I was saying. It is reasonable and reflects all the history we know on the animal. Mike Bodner

What if you have a male and a female adult pair that breeds but you dont know what line they came from (because they have been past through many different hands)

What do you call the babies?
Heres my examaple
I have a Male That came from Jeff Schofield, who got it from Tony D, But Tony doesnt remember where it came from.
Here he is...

And here is a female I got from Charlie but he doesnt remember where he got her from... here she is....

So what shall I label these babies as? I call them the Midwestern Monsters Line....why because I have no more background then I just told you. I picked the male, I picked the female, and I produced the babies. But all my customers have and will be informed with all the info I have on the parents like I stated above the pics.

But I have breed that male to a few other females like a Vivid female, So I have labeled those Midwestern Monsters X Vivid... because I used the male thats unknown and out crossed it to a Vivid. So not everyone may agree with how I am labeling those but thats the best I can do with the info I was provided. Unless someone has a better idea.
And thanks for that background info on those 3 females Mike.
Thanks everyone
MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

Did Charlie get the female from Shannon Brown?
What year is she?
-----
Michelle
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.

Im not sure what year she is we thought around 03?
But Charlie doesnt remeber what year she is.
Thanks Michelle

I want to throw out there again, that I am new to Thayeri, but do have experience with other snakes where lineage can be a factor. So I claim to have nowhere NEAR the experience and knowledge some others do.

I think you have a good example and you are handling exactly right. If you have 2 animals of unknown heritage, and you are breeding them, and you call them a name of your choosing, then that is fine. The reason it is fine is because you are HONEST about it. You say, I have 2 adults and can't be sure where they are from. If I asked you, "can you tell me where your animals originated?" You answer exactly what is in your post, so you have educated the buyer to the best of your ability and honestly, you can't do better than that. And, if you breed it to a Vivid animal, you also say exactly what you said. You can't claim it Vivid line only, and you still answer any questions honestly.

I believe a lot of responsibility falls on the buyer, if you answer honestly, then it's up to them. However, I would say don't be offended if they say they are looking for something more concrete. Trust does come in to play here, but in the end it's up to the person paying out the money.

I guess maybe the grey area here is the word "line". Can you really have a new "line" without new blood coming into the hobby? I don't know. But, that doesn't mean that you can't have breeders working with awesome snakes, and producing awesome snakes. So, you can say,"this animal came from Breeder X", but can that really be considered a "line"

Wow, that's almost chicken or the egg kind of stuff.

Thanks Brain
Thats what I have always tried to do is be HONEST.
I never get offend unless you talk about my Mama lol

I love all the comments on this post John started.. heck if we all continue to post in it we may have the record for longest KS post then maybe some of the other people will venture over here and see that Thayeri Rule and Brooksi drool.... LOL

I'm sure that statement would go over well with the "other" forum.

But then again I'm honest!
Thanks

MIDWESTERN MONSTERS

>>I love all the comments on this post John started.. heck if we all continue to post in it we may have the record for longest KS post then maybe some of the other people will venture over here and see that Thayeri Rule and Brooksi drool.... LOL
>>
>>I'm sure that statement would go over well with the "other"

I don't know....Some of those Frank Retes threads were the longest I have ever seen and I have been on these forums since the late 90s......

I used to go over to the other forum when Eastern Chain Kings were popular and post pics of colorful thayeri....I always started out with statements like..."No black and white stuff here" or "Why do you need hets and morphs? Thayeri are more variable naturally....." Hehehe

Yep...They rule!
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Playing Devil's Advocate here because I know a few other guys who feel the same way............how do you know the thayeri you have are "Pure"? I think it best to say you believe that the thayeri you are working with came from reputable guys that perhaps didn't believe or practice in crossing thayeri w/ other king complexes to enhnace the looks of a snake.

I always believe/d like you that the thayeri I was working with for 11 or so years were/are pure but then I had a smart guy who I respect alot point out to me just what I stated up top.

Something to think about and I do appreciate your post and point of view. They are a tremendously cool snake....still my favorite.

Russ Bates

Russ you are absolutely correct in my opinion.
Notice every time I type the work 'pure' I put it in quotations....
I don't believe all the thayeri we are working with are 'pure' but at least we got lines from reputable breeders and not from just anyone with no data on them....

Glad you still like thayeri Russ....When you gonna produce some more?

I got out of the hobby for 4 years and couldn't stand seeing all the hatchling pics around this time of the year.....
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

When I sold my thayeri collection I kept back one trio and have been raising them very slowly (so slow in fact they have developed brooksi attitudes...they fly out of the box to eat). It will most likley be one or two more years before I produce thayeri again. I've got a little job to do in the middle east in 2010 so my snakes will be out of the picture.

Russ

I for one will be waiting anxiously! Any picks of the up and coming?
-----
Todd Hughes

thanks Todd. I'll get you some pictures soon. They are neat but nothing real special.
Russ