Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Due to having a couple of snakes that will not take F/T and just the overall cost of feeders I am looking at starting a colony.
There are a few things I need to find out.

1)how long from conception till being able to re-breed the does? I am looking for reasonable time not power breeding.

2)how do most cull litters to get the assorted sizes for different sized snakes?

3)what is the approximate time line....
pinkies - newborn, fuzzies - about a week, etc...

4)ratio of males to females (I am looking to keep each female in their own enclosure and move the male(s) from one to the next)

Hi,

I just went through what you are contemplating. I definitely am glad I am doing it in many ways. The best reason and thing I have discovered is NO MORE FROZEN RATS AND NO FROZEN RAT COMPANIES....C YA FROZEN RAT COMPANIES. Anyway I have many posts in this forum that asks all your questions and more. You should check them out. There are some awesome breeders that have helped me immensely. It takes 23 to 28 days to get a litter. You will get between 8 to 10 pups per rat mom. They will have more each litter. Up to 15 so I have heard. I would count on 10 for your numbers on average. The weigh about 8 grams as new borns and gain about 10 grams a week. In two weeks their eyes open and they weigh about 20 to 25 grams and by week three they weight between 45 grams for females and males weigh about 60 gram. Count on about 10 to 15 grams of weight gain a week. I my self have 15 balls to feed. I need about 60 rats a month. So I am breeding 1.2 groups every 7 days. So every week I have two litters born. That is 20 rats a week. That gets me 80 rats a month. I feed off the females to my smaller snakes and I am growing the males for my female adult snakes. I am feeding my 500 to 800 gram snakes small rats. I am feeding my 2000 gram and higher snakes 150 gram rats. That is it. It will take you probably 2 or so months to build up your stock all the way up the weight chain. Right now my numbers have been lower than planned but I think they will catch up as my numbers increase. I only need about 20 medium Rats a month. The rest of my snakes can eat around 100 grams. Anyway I hope this helps and let me know if I can give you any advice down the road. It is really fun and my kids love doing it with me. By the way I am selling pet rats on the side and I am selling more than I thought so I am going to increase my breeding to keep the rattery going on the side. I am making 10.00 bucks a rat and they are selling great. I am actually making money on the rats and feeding my snakes now for free. My rats are extremely healthy and well fed. No more frozen lab rats and rats that are covered in toxic chemicals to keep the mites off. I know most people think the frozen companies are good, but I thought they were difficult to deal with on many levels and their prices where killing me. I was paying about 1.00 a rat. That is like 60.00 dollars a month and over 700.00 dollars a year. The other thing is that the meat would suffer a lot of protein loss in the freezer every month. All I can say is that it is like everything else we all go through in this great hobby of ours. We can't just start out with everything at once. We all start out with aquariums and heat lamps. Than we switch to racks and heat tape. We all have frozen rats and mice, and then we learn how to breed our own. It is a beautiful thing and I love to watch others learn with us along the way.

Good luck,
Mark
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STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

Hi,

I forgot to mention the time between pregnancy. You can power breed if you want. That is where you never take out your males and your females are always pregnant. It is definitely in my opinion a inhumane way to breed and not the way I am going to treat my rats. I have no less respect for anyone that does it because it is a personal choice. I do not point fingers and I would never tell anyone how to live their lives. Just do not come into my yard and tell me how to live mine. Tons of big breeders breed this way. If you go that route you will have females with babies nursing on her and you have babies living in her. She will be undernourished and she will always be being drained by her young in her and under her. I am pretty sure rats breed this in the wild but I have not heard that being fact. I am going this direction: It definitely keeps the numbers down and is definitely more expensive. I breed and than let mom have her babies and when I wean 3 to 4 weeks later I than put her back in the pregnancy mode. I am just as new at this as you so I am trying this first. It definitely sucks doing it this way because you are feeding the females for weeks while they are not producing babies. We are probably talking about 3 to 5 dollars a month but that does add up. The money is not near the issue for me as it is the fact that I know what I am feeding my snakes now. I have talked with many breeders that breed this way and they feel the way I do. They want to feel that they are doing everything possible to keep their rats in the best shape possible. That being said, it is kind of funny how you can breed out 40 rats and they are all eaten 2 weeks after you weaned them. It is definitely a funny cycle. All that work and it is all eaten in a puff of smoke and you just keep repeating the cycle every 4 to 8 weeks. Anyway, I hope you find this post helpful. Remember I am not a professional rat breeder, I just play one on TV.

Regards,
Mark
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STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

Basically from conception it is about 8 to 10 weeks till breeding again. 20 to 30 for birth and about 4 weeks till weaned.
What about culling? Does everyone just take an estimate of the pinkies, fuzzies, etc they think they will need from each litter or do they do a percentage???
I am trying to figure how many breeders I need to achieve a constant food source with some room to spare.

Thanks for the help so far!

>>Basically from conception it is about 8 to 10 weeks till breeding again. 20 to 30 for birth and about 4 weeks till weaned.
>>What about culling? Does everyone just take an estimate of the pinkies, fuzzies, etc they think they will need from each litter or do they do a percentage???
>> I am trying to figure how many breeders I need to achieve a constant food source with some room to spare.
>>
>>Thanks for the help so far!

How many animals are you feeding what sizes to.

Guestimate to me after getting zen and cutting back.....four boa taking large mediums to larges, a blood doing the same, ratsnakes eating about a dozen smalls or mice, childrens eating pinks, fuzzies or mice, hogs, candoia and oddballs another dozen say of small stuff and mice....I have 7 rat groups and 7 mice groups.Groups range from 1.4 to 1.7 I feed all my own and sell off extras enough to get bedding and the rodent food. Break even or then some.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Numbers are real easy....figure out how many feeders your snakes consume a week. Does not matter what size. Once your colony gets up to the "correct" size, you simply need to replace the number of animals yu take out each week (ish) So, for example, you have 4 baby snakes eating weekly, 6 subadults eating once every two weeks and another 8 adults also eating every other week that's 4 plus 6/2 plus 8/2 or 10 feeders on average each week. So, with that you need to produce one litter each week to maintain the colony. If numbers are over or under 10/litter you can have an adjust week now and then where you one more or one less female to tweak the colony size.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

>>>If you go that route you will have females with babies nursing on her and you have babies living in her. She will be undernourished and she will always be being drained by her young in her and under her. I am pretty sure rats breed this in the wild but I have not heard that being fact. I am going this direction: It definitely keeps the numbers down and is definitely more expensive. I breed and than let mom have her babies and when I wean 3 to 4 weeks later I than put her back in the pregnancy mode. I am just as new at this as you so I am trying this first. It definitely sucks doing it this way because you are feeding the females for weeks while they are not producing babies. We are probably talking about 3 to 5 dollars a month but that does add up. The money is not near the issue for me as it is the fact that I know what I am feeding my snakes now. I have talked with many breeders that breed this way and they feel the way I do. They want to feel that they are doing everything possible to keep their rats in the best shape >>>possible.

I first want to say that I respect your thoughts but after thirty mumble mumble years of doing this I am gonna add some of mine.

You girls are gonna go infertile about 6 or 7 months down the road and have half as many litters with all that sitting around getting fat and watching tv. Justy ratty facts. Are your raising feeders or pets?

Do I believe they have any opinion about their being bred constantly or not?.....no. They are rats, not people.

If you are feeding correctly you will have healthy well conditioned breeders regardless. I cull off my breeders as Jumbos...they are monsters, not boney thin worn out shells.

Rats, like most of the earth's creatures, will reproduce to whatever extent their resources allow. Lemmings, think lemmings, and check out their life cycles. Why do they overpopulate? Resources . You are supplying your beasties food and water....it is always nirvana for them so of course they are gonna breed constantly. If they were undernourished they will reabsorb or eat pups.....change your diet, something is wrong with it.

I talked to a Mazuri supplier/salesman once....said I found on their foods my rats tended to cannabalize. He said feed more cat kibble mixed in. HELLO! Why am I buying your food then? Now this was years ago and things change. But I still feed by feel and tweak diets for each enclosure. Dog kibble, cat kibble, sunflower seed, stale breakfast cereal...Just how it works for me.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Hi,

We are breeding for pets and feeders. Are you serious about them going infertile? That would suck. I definitely was hoping to get more that 7 months of babies out of our breeding females. I appreciate the info on that. No one told me this. Many breeders have told me to kill off all my breeding females every 6 months just so I do not have to deal the infertility issues. Do you really think by waiting until they wean off their young they will all be infertile in 6 months? So are you saying that I need to get mom pregnant the same day she has her babies? Thanks for the help...

Mark
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STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

>>Hi,
>>
>>We are breeding for pets and feeders. Are you serious about them going infertile? That would suck. I definitely was hoping to get more that 7 months of babies out of our breeding females. I appreciate the info on that. No one told me this. Many breeders have told me to kill off all my breeding females every 6 months just so I do not have to deal the infertility issues. Do you really think by waiting until they wean off their young they will all be infertile in 6 months? So are you saying that I need to get mom pregnant the same day she has her babies? Thanks for the help...
>>
>>Mark
>>-----
>>STRENGTH IN NUMBERS
>>
>>
>>

So I am gonna comment on your email here too. So if you wonder what I am talking about.....it is just me.

Good for you to have that kind of market for your rats. Here I can't get that for dumbo hairless , let alone just colors. Rats are rats here. Which is fine as I can sell as many as I want and more than break even. I used to breed the dumbo line, hairless line, badgers, hoods (of course) and everything in between. I even had a tailess line for a year. (but don't go there for anything but trouble...like manx cats with spine and neuro problems)

Were you talking separating mice or rats in grow outs? I tend not to do either 'cause then I can resupply my own breeders with those that catch early and are often very good breeders. With rats it is whether you care if you sell possibly pregnant girls. With mice it is that but also if you put all the male mice in thick population they start tearing each other to death...bloody rumps, torn off tails toes and ears. Male mice are evil to each other. Here I sell or feed off mice so quickly it isn't an issue usually of who is pregnant. And I tend to feed down the boys first.

Trouble with breeding and selling PET rats is you often get zealots that are like rabid vegans with their opinions on breeding. I have set some off when they get into irresponsible breeding and I remind them that I have been in rats siince there were only a couple colors and patterns (hoods were all the cool stuff) and GEE rats lived to be 6 or 8 years old and died of old age...not two and die of mycoplasmosis or cancer. Been there, done that.

I should breed more mice but I really don't need them except as feeders for baby snakes. Next year it will be an issue again but this year all I have is a clutch of eastern milks from a WC female that laid them in my place of business under the frig (in a boarding kennel) They will be on mouse tails for a while and then tiny pinks if I am lucky. Next year I will probably breed my old stand bys of Childrens, yellow and everglades ratsnakes, western hogs and boas. So I will need to up my mice for pinky feeders. Mice are just so smelly and touchy I have cut back some.

As to your above questions...many rats will be infertile hitting the 6 or 8 month old mark. I have found that waiting between litters does not keep this from happening and you end up with two or three litters from a doe instead of 6 . Pet rat people love to argue this point that they don't get infertile girls...but most of them only breed a doe once or twice. So there is really nothing to compare to.

You don't have to rebreed her constantly. Do what you feel is right. You could rest her and let the pups get to two weeks or whatever. I am just saying, don't be surprised if you have moms that won't breed back. Kinda like bunnies....wait too long and she won't take a rebreeding. Whether they just get fat or just stop cycling....just going on my experience.
One thing I often do is not breed initially til the doe is a good 8 to 12 weeks (depending on the line and size of her) so, basically saying I don't leave girls in with their dads or other mature males for their first breeding. I often take out young females, grown them a month past weaning, then put them in a group with a mature male...not one of her sibs as they are often not ready, but a male a couple 3 months older. That will let her get her growth in before taxing her with pregnancy. After that she is always in a group with a male.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Getting the feeder colomy to the right size is different for each breeder. But simply put, you over breed ntil you have all the feeders you need at all the sizes you need. Remember, you will be culling smaller and female animals each week for feeders until you only have males left in the grow-out tubs for your largest feeders. If you don't have enough of the larger feeders, you need to increase the colony size. If you have too many, decrease.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I cycle breed all my females and have a constant supply of all sizes of feeders. I find my decline in offspring occurs at around 6 - 8 litters (ish). Don't have detailed records on me but at 4 weeks preggo and 4 weeks until weaned that's 13 months (56 weeks) of production at 7 average litters each. Actually is less than that as over half of my feeders are consumed prior to weaning. So even at 1/2 consumed as pinks, that's still 28 weeks of being preggo and another 14 weeks raising up babies or 42 weeks (almost 10 months) of active production from a female.

I do agree that properly fed rodents will produce at an astounding rate. I cycle breed only to closely control my production rates to eliminate bubbles and gaps in my supply. Yeah, 'm likely large enough now to just tub breed but old dawg / new trick

BTW, I'm not at 30 sumpin years of producing rodents, only 20

>>I first want to say that I respect your thoughts but after thirty mumble mumble years of doing this I am gonna add some of mine.
>>
>>You girls are gonna go infertile about 6 or 7 months down the road and have half as many litters with all that sitting around getting fat and watching tv. Justy ratty facts. Are your raising feeders or pets?
>>
>>Do I believe they have any opinion about their being bred constantly or not?.....no. They are rats, not people.
>>
>>If you are feeding correctly you will have healthy well conditioned breeders regardless. I cull off my breeders as Jumbos...they are monsters, not boney thin worn out shells.
>>
>>Rats, like most of the earth's creatures, will reproduce to whatever extent their resources allow. Lemmings, think lemmings, and check out their life cycles. Why do they overpopulate? Resources . You are supplying your beasties food and water....it is always nirvana for them so of course they are gonna breed constantly. If they were undernourished they will reabsorb or eat pups.....change your diet, something is wrong with it.
>>
>>I talked to a Mazuri supplier/salesman once....said I found on their foods my rats tended to cannabalize. He said feed more cat kibble mixed in. HELLO! Why am I buying your food then? Now this was years ago and things change. But I still feed by feel and tweak diets for each enclosure. Dog kibble, cat kibble, sunflower seed, stale breakfast cereal...Just how it works for me.
>>-----
>>Sonya
>>
>>I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
>>Happy Bunny
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (05/26/2009):
36.51 BRB
29.42 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Cool that that works for you and I will say I have had lines that reproduced into the one year mark. My major point was that it doesn't have to be hard on the girls to continuous breed. It isn't mean. Another point is that you are still getting about half a dozen litters from any given doe.
I am lazy and rather feed prekilled. But I can and do freeze off some and have a supply there. So I don't worry about constant supply of anything. I have ADD and that is too much like work for me. to figure out anyway.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

>>1)how long from conception till being able to re-breed the does? I am looking for reasonable time not power breeding.
>>

I have found over the last thirty years that whatever way you do it you will get about 6 litters from a doe before she is worthless. "Power" breeding isn't gonna shorten or lessen her productivity. If you want to space litters you may find that you get fewer litters due to her going infertile in the middle of your plans. Either way. Rebreeding can occur within 24hrs of birthing. Some wait two weeks, some wean the litter. Depends on you....do you need pinkies, fuzzys, hoppers??? you are gonna pull them as you want them. That kinda answers your number 2. I have rodents and pull what I need as I need it. Til I get to my bigger snakes then I pull worthless breeders or use a grow out tub for anyone past 4 weeks old.

>>2)how do most cull litters to get the assorted sizes for different sized snakes?
>>
>>3)what is the approximate time line....
>>pinkies - newborn, fuzzies - about a week, etc...

Depends on your definitions...for me. Newborn is first couple days. Then you get pinks, then peach fuzz, then fuzzy, then fuzzy hopper, then hopper then weanling, then small, medium large...You get the idea. I used to weigh prey and have numbers but it varies with rat lines and I am getting too old for nonesense.
>>
>>4)ratio of males to females (I am looking to keep each female in their own enclosure and move the male(s) from one to the next)

Will depend on how often you want to rebreed. I would leave him in one place 5 or 6 days. I also wouldn't bother with one girl per enclosure as rats really do fine in groups, raising litters that might otherwise be too much for one mom. That and they learn to be good moms so keeping them in small groups helps. I have mine in 1.3 to 1.5 and switch up the males every couple litters to keep their mind on business.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

First thanks for all the info! It did answer most of my questions, though I might have not asked the questions I was looking for an answer to!!

Hello,
Was your question you didn't ask was if we could breed rats for you....? LOL...Good luck breeding is a lot of fun at least for me. I enjoy making the litters and the different colors are cool. Hey Sonya....The mice are new for me and I have been told the males are a pain the azz. If I just have a grow out where I keep the males and females together and kill off the males first I will be OK? And if the females get prego just feed them off or just let the babies get eaten by the grow out group? Thanks for the help.

Regards,
Mark
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STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

>>Hello,
>>Was your question you didn't ask was if we could breed rats for you....? LOL...Good luck breeding is a lot of fun at least for me. I enjoy making the litters and the different colors are cool. Hey Sonya....The mice are new for me and I have been told the males are a pain the azz. If I just have a grow out where I keep the males and females together and kill off the males first I will be OK? And if the females get prego just feed them off or just let the babies get eaten by the grow out group? Thanks for the help.
>>
>>Regards,
>>Mark
>>-----
>>STRENGTH IN NUMBERS
>>
>>
>>

Yeah, mice are a pain. Males will kill each other just 'cuz. I usually feed off the males first so they don't get hashed and useless. Prego females are handy for frozen pinks or pinks for the stores to buy or just feeding off.
Mice are beast that you set up a group and leave them alone. The working verb is "LEAVE THEM ALONE" Mice kill first litters, mice eat litters if stressed. Mice eat each other if stressed. Stress is anything from being handled too much to adding new mice after the group gets set (usually resulting in a cannabal barbacue with the new addition as the main course). Once settled and breeding it is easier. But many folks get pissed off with mice and feed them off before the good happens.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny

Hey,

Thanks again for the mice tips Sonya. Will they definitely eat their first litters? Or it just happens sometimes. We don't touch the mice. They are gross. We set up a 1.6 colony with two igloo hides and a wheel and water bottle. I won't even check the hides for babies. I am just going to clean the bedding once a week. When I see babies eating the block I will pull them in put them in a communal grow out. That is it. Let me know if that sounds like a good plan?

Thanks,
Mark
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STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

>>Hey,
>>
>>Thanks again for the mice tips Sonya. Will they definitely eat their first litters? Or it just happens sometimes. We don't touch the mice. They are gross. We set up a 1.6 colony with two igloo hides and a wheel and water bottle. I won't even check the hides for babies. I am just going to clean the bedding once a week. When I see babies eating the block I will pull them in put them in a communal grow out. That is it. Let me know if that sounds like a good plan?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Mark
>>-----
>>STRENGTH IN NUMBERS
>>
>>
>>

They don't ALWAYS eat litters but they stress more at first. Once they are used to the routine they settle down and are generally fine. My routine with mice is set them up and wait. Whether they have pups or not they get changed totally when they need to be. I pull all adults (obsessively counting to be SURE their is a male and X females) I note the date and number on the card, I toss them in a bucket, I pull babies by sizes...hopper go in the bucket with their folks, fuzzys and pinks get a separate container during cleaning (usually an ice cream bucket)Count and note them on the card too. So I can tell if their numbers are changing without my help. Clean the tub....put everything back including the obligatory junk box (tissue, cereal, mac and cheese....box for the babies. Dump the pinks and fuzzys into said box and put it back....last dump in the adults. Seems to work for me. I have seen adults cannabalize pups DURING cleaning if they have access to them. Hence the separation.
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Sonya

I'm not mean. You're just a sissy.
Happy Bunny