Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was thinking of how things were in this hobby a few years back. Now understand I am 42, and there's people who post on here who can go a lot farther back than I will but I just want to make one simple point.

The three words that wrecked the hobby are "It's just a...", then fill in the blank with your snake of choice. Initially I got all my snakes from a pet shop when I was a kid. The first breeder I met turned my thoughts of snakes inside out. Snakes I had never seen in person were offered and you simply saw pics of the parents in a photo album and had babies picked out for you by most.... but the thing I remember most was four other words that meant everything. "Picks of the litter"

Some guys were cool and thought whoever was first on the list was entitled to picks of the litter, the best of the best. Others charged a bit more for those babies and people were grateful for it, it was worth it. The thing that I wish was still applied to today's market was appreciation for details. I remember seeing a few Milks on one side of a table and the rest on the opposite and though they were clutch-mates or the same type of snake people would point on perfect banding without a scale bleeding one color into another, or no tipping and just really look at the animals as a work of art.

NOW, "Its just a this n that" mentality drives me nuts. I realize the hobby has exploded and there's a billion places to buy nice snakes but it is maddening to put years of patience into your animals waiting to produce babies and the average attitude is people are unimpressed. Its as if they think they're too cool to acknowledge the beauty of something they've seen before and even worse, too cool to get excited about something brand new. NOTHING seems to impress people very much anymore.

This does not stand as my opinion of EVERYONE, but it is how I feel about the majority of people I encounter in this hobby. Never mind the price.... I am talking about appreciation for the snakes. Some of my favorite people on here are the ones who enthusiastically post pics and seem to not have lost that spark that got them into snakes in the first place. I still feel fortunate that we actually have a hobby as enormous as it is, with shows to attend, web sites to post on and magazines to read. BUT, its a shame that you can put just about anything in front of someone these days and they yawn.

How I miss the days of Picks of the Litter,,,, when people went nuts over the nicest snakes found in the hobby. Just a little rant, over nothing...but man I love my snakes....
Tom Stevens

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TomsSnakes.com

That was very well put. I'm 22 and relatively new to the hobby but sometimes I feel like people treat me like a little kid in a candy shop because I still see the beauty in the normals. It doesn't take some amazing morph to spark my interest. I loved your post, you should post it on another forum I frequent.

We all want to produce or own something that makes other people (and ourselves) go "wow!". I think the biggest difference today is the amount of exposure all these different snakes get. There's no mystery left. There are a number of big reptile shows, and a whole bunch of smaller ones. There are internet forums and websites with tons of pictures.

And there are a lot of amazing snakes being produced in this hobby... things that look completely unnatural. If you're not producing something that looks extra-amazing, then its just background noise.

Personally I'm more of a specialist. There is some stuff that will never cause me to look twice just because of what it is, unless it is really off the wall. Most corn snake morphs are like that, just minute variations of the same stuff I've been seeing for years. Of course, I pay a lot more attention when its Florida kings, and can appreciate even subtle differences.

Some of my favorite people on here are the ones who enthusiastically post pics and seem to not have lost that spark that got them into snakes in the first place. I still feel fortunate that we actually have a hobby as enormous as it is, with shows to attend, web sites to post on and magazines to read. BUT, its a shame that you can put just about anything in front of someone these days and they yawn

You said a mouthful there.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Good thoughts Tom and I highly agree!!
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Genesis 1:1

Excellent e-mail. Biggest difference between now and the old days (to me) is that so few people have ever seen these great kingsnakes in their natural habitat. I am so grateful I had the opportunity years ago to actually snake hunt and collect a few wild snakes. I do not do it anymore (and have not for 25 years)because so many amazing snakes are readily (and inexpensively) available from all you breeders. Nonetheless, having collected a few specimens many years ago and learning where and how they live gives me an appreciation for what is available now.

I gotta agree with you on that. Too many people think the "natural habitat" for snakes is an 8 ounce deli cup. Individuals (and it's a lot of newer people in the hobby) who've never found snakes in the wild have less appreciation for them.

I also think some of the morphs actually take away the beauty of particular snakes - despite being new and time consuming to achieve. I've seen more and more grey, white and faded pink corn snakes these past few years than ever before. Take some of these are "new" morphs, put them alongside a nice, colorful high-contrast Okeetee - I know which snake will get the "wow" from me.

I mean is an albino Eastern King really all that different from an albino Cal King in looks? Isn't a whitewall Brooks King and whitewall whatever (insert any whitewall morph you like) pretty much the same looking snake?

I suppose there's "wow" factor for visual appearance and there's "wow" factor for the work needed to create something new. But when that new thing doesn't look all that much different form other snakes out there, it loses impact.

I also think there's so many "flavors" (morphs) out there, that it's hard for asingle morph to hold anyone's attention for very long.

Tim

Cal King I found in Gilroy a last year:

Third Eye

That's a beautiful Cal King, Tim.
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http://www.mikefoux.com
http://www.cafepress.com/shedz

1.2.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
1.0.0 San Diego Gopher, Poss. Het Applegate
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana

If you have some appreciation for the life histories of these snakes, keeping them is so much more fun. Your interest is maintained and you do not see them as "just a XXX". If you have ever spent hours in North Carolina road cruising for eastern kings (back in the day), actually finding one alive on a road next to a wetland is really a thrill. Earlier poster was right; show me a really nice "normal" cornsnake and I will go "wow". Show me some of these red-eyed albino varieties or washed out kingsnake morphs and I will select against them (just like mother nature). I appreciate the fact that breeders have to produce "new and exciting" color varieties to sell their babies, but I love to get the stuff that looks like the pictures in Conant's field guide! Really, is there be anything that looks better than a freshly shed eastern king from NC? Or red milk from southern IL?

Tom,

You've given me some food for thought. I hadn't really considered that before. I'm relatively new to this aspect of the hobby/culture. Although I've kept snakes all my life and hatched eggs from w/c females in the past, I just started collecting snakes for breeding about three and a half years ago. I "rediscovered" this website around the same time.
I agree with you. One of my favorite snakes, in fact, is a nice female tricolor hondo I got from you. She's "just a het", but her color is amazing and she sure grabs attention whenever I do a presentation or just take her out to show my friends. I've got a clutch from her cooking right now and hope that the babies look as good as she does.
Another on of my favorites is a sweet little gray banded king with a jet black head. He's from no specific locality, but he sure is cool to look at.
Anyway, good post. Maybe we should all take a step back and appreciate "Just a...." snakes.

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http://www.mikefoux.com
http://www.cafepress.com/shedz

1.2.0 Hondurans Het Amel
1.1.0 Hondurans Anery, Het Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo
0.1.0 Honduran Hypo, Het Anery
0.2.0 Pueblans
1.0.0 Pueblan Hypo
0.1.0 Corn Bloodred
0.0.1 GBK Blair's Phase
1.0.0 California King
0.1.0 California King Blue-eyed Blond
0.0.1 Speckled King WC
0.0.1 Jungle Carpet
0.1.0 Ball, Normal
1.0.0 San Diego Gopher, Poss. Het Applegate
0.0.1 Sulcata
0.1.0 Wife, Caucasius Mexicana

Tom I'm only 10 years older than you but have been involved with "exotics" for more than 40 years in one way or another. As a kid, I bugged a local animal importer/seller until he let me help him out by ceaning cages etc.
Talk about aWOW factor!! Each day my jaw would drop just seeing kinkajou, wooly, spider, and squirrell monkeys, macaques, gryson, harpy eagles, panthers, ocelots, margays, and just about anything else you (I) could imagine.
Snakes from all over the world that I had never seen....the first time I looked at and held an elephant trunk snake, I flipped.
Boas, ETB, and anacondas were regulars and never ceased to amaze me. Many many EDB, cobras, etc.
You can see many of those animals in a large zoo, but do you say "WOW"!?? Not much anymore I bet.
The info overload that has come with the times has much to do with it, I suspect, and we get instant gratification with just a click of a mouse or remote control. You can get numb and I thinks that's the problem.
Some of those animals I got to see in person are in big trouble these days and I'm lucky in a way to have seen them and touch them back then.
There weren't many (if any) known morphs and certainly no "man made" types either.
When I have lost the "awe" you speak of in the past, it seemed it was rekindled fairly easily by taking out a snake from a cage I keep it in and actually holding and really looking over the animal. Appreciating him as I did when I saw one for the first time many moons ago is easy when he's crawling through my hands or in the grass outside.Not in a box or cup or on TV.
Field herping can do that for me too.
You have to get back to basics..Be a kid again if you need to.
The little kid is still in there somewhere, you just have to clear all the clutter, put on that old baseball glove and pound your fist in it to let that dust fly!
You'll be there in a flash....
Wow! 'd you see that???"
COOOOOOOOL!

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

np

Totally couldn't have said it better Mark, Tom, you need a field trip!!! But more than that all the lurkers and herpers that haven't done it need to get out with someone who has and get back to the roots! Daytona was awesome, but I would not have enjoyed it as much if I hadn't gotten out there on my only chance in Florida and found this, from doing what I do!

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Todd Hughes

......LOL.......know how you feel.....it's getting old....
....you can't even give brooksi away around here for some reason....you wouldn't like the prices of anything...I mean , anything......

...aaahhh...the day I drove to a guy I didn't know's home and picked up an albino banded cal king....mmmm...$75...and he even held a female for me till I got a check the next week....!...
first cal (king at all) was a 5 foot banded creme and chocolate female....$125....back then...wow.....I loved them snakes....
now...I hatch double morph balls and all and after a minute they are old news.....LOL........first snake I bought, a 3 foot baby female burmese....grew an inch a week.....$125 imported from FL....pet shop......

.....someday it will be that fun again.....

....

......
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JY
Scales-N-Tails
reptiles ltd.

np

Tom,

I would have to agree with you, things have changed drastically over the yrs...I remember back in the early 80's when it was tabboo to talk about how you fed,bred or any husbandry practices with any snakes......Back then there weren't all these fancy morphs that are around now......As you said it was all about the natural beauty of the snakes, the crispness of the lines with no bleeding into each other, good coloration exc.....Them days are long gone now,it's all about the oddest mutation that people can come up with, kinda depressing really.....I have been breeding snakes 4 27 yrs and I still love seeing a snake egg with a little slice in it,knowing that that pip will soon be a wonderful little hatching....I breed cornsnakes now and let me say it is like x-mas with some of those clutches, you never know what you are going to get....lol....I have to say though that my favorite of all the corns is still the Abbott and Love line Okeetees, they may be a wild morph but they are still in my opinion the best looking of the lot....Just like a Cal.King they are hard to beat, just by the pure contrast alone, let alone if it is one with perfect non - bleeding rings, just stunning...

For those of us that remember back when things were a bit simpler and the snakes them selves were more appreciated instead of the "morph", I guess the only thing we can do is keep on keepin on, and try to help people remember what a wild "morph" with clean lines and natural coloring looks like.....

Well said, this 37 year old agrees wholeheartedly.
Personally I'll take a nice crisp looking "normal" anything anyday as a prime example of a species. Not to begrudge any of the morphs as some are interesting looking and the old "different strokes" kinda deal... My preference just lies with the "wild types".

What I find funny now is that I never got into breeding until after almost 20 years of keeping these animals. Why? Well I felt partly like I needed to know more, to have more experience, and sort of pay my dues to earn the right. It seems kinda silly now, but I wouldn't change the way I've done anything.

Oops hit enter too quickly... I meant to add that I wouldn't change anything & I still get excited seeing things like garters in the wild, just walking into the snake room, and even just seeing pictures people post. Stepping back to enjoy it at it's most basic gets me everytime.

I totally agree here. I thought to breed snakes you had to be well informed, "learned" and you had to pay your dues. I guess it was because I got involved in the early 90's under the guidance of a snake guy who had those qualities. Now you see newbies in their first year or two producing and selling. Things have changed, A LOT.

I appreciate all the replies.
I had a feeling this post would be looked at as something to show that normal snakes used to be worth so much more to people but it is not...not the point I was making at all.

The way I see it snakes are a more the merrier thing. So maybe some people who'd pay no attention to a black snake in their yard may be blown away by a neon morph. Regardless of a snake being a morph or not, the main thing is this.

Many of us take great pride in our animals, and the thing that really makes you proudest is when a snake HATER sees an animal in your collection and pays it a compliment. After looking through a bunch of your animals and making BS comments on how snakes suck and this and that they see something and are shocked by its appearance. This is a great moment for a morph guy, especially if it is something you produced yourself from hets! But this example does not have to be a morph, sometimes people that visit like my MBKs best of all ya know?

The thing is snakes are often looked at with unappreciative eyes. It's bad enough some people hate them but when people in our hobby, even some who are business act like NOTHING, normal or morph impresses them anymore...what the heck is that?!?!?!

So OK, many of us our spoiled....what I dont think we see enough of is people trying to recruit those who never had any interest to discover reptiles.NEWBIES. Want to see the reaction you hope for when showing off some animals? Show someone who is not familiar with this site and other places to see things like the snakes we too often take for granted. These new people, especially young people will get totally excited over the chance to see your collections.

When a type of Python took over our hobby many people got into it for the wrong reasons. I believe many of those types are gone done and out of the hobby. Many reptiles are more realistically priced for pets....much saner these days. I have sold snakes to guys who were relatively new to this and have seen them grow more enthusiastic by the day. My buddy Jon in TN is a great example...he bought some snakes and we stayed in touch and a short year later he has his first clutches on the ground. His snake of choice happened to be Corns. To him "it's just a Corn.." is like "what are you nuts? Look at this thing!"...

There's only a billion more people out there who do not enjoy reptiles out there yet, I know there's people who discover snakes all the time. It's refreshing to speak to them too with their more appreciative and even respectful way they view the snakes.

For me it started in the field, a garbage dump to be exact haha! I'd go catch Eastern Milks, Garter and Brown snakes. I can not tell you how many times I got grounded for coming home with Garter crap all over me. I would tell my parents when I grow up I am gonna have all the snakes I want! Look at me now HAHA!
ANYHOW.....ALL SNAKES RULE RIGHT?
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom,

I reckon there's a lot of ways your initial post could be interpreted. But I think what I'm seeing from the replies is a case of "morph burnout." A number of people suggested that they get "wow factor" from "wild types" (and sometimes snakes seen in the wild), but did anyone say they were "wowed" by a particular morph?

Over the past few years the word "screaming" has been overused as a adjective for so much stuff being advertised that it's become trite.

There is no snake that is neon (a rare, colorless, and inert chemical element) - despite it being used to describe various types.

Or how about Ultra Corns? What's so "ultra" about them? Yes, they're cleaner than "normal" corns and have a refined look. But that does not equate to "ultra" which means "excessive."

And then there's the whole "super" adjective. Is a Super Pastel Ball Python really "super?"

I realize that these are manufactured trade names, but I think breeders as a whole got caught up in their own hype and competition among themselves, while new potential buyers just don't care and can't see much of a difference between one morph or another.

Tim

I understand your statements about morphs...but the thing is I produce tons of hets. I work with the MBKs and in a year or two het nothing Southern Pines. The thing is I still hear exactly what I said in my post.
Morph. Wild Type. Whatever
The reply is too often "It's just a"... fill in the blank....

I didn't want people to say what they liked better. That is not what I was getting at.
I think these days there's always going to be a few people who will make a fuss over a snake... but so many treat these animals like they're simply too freakin cool to acknowledge it as something special and that angers me.

In other words you just cant win. People who have seen it all are bored with EVERYTHING. This is why you [well really me... and other breeders, snake people in general] should not really pay too much attention to the super cool folks who wanna put down everything. There's a billion new people out there who could breathe life back into this hobby. Locale purists, morph makers, hybrid likers...whatever.... but I seem to attract like minded people to myself and what I have to offer, and many of these people also stand their ground and stick to their guns.

What bothers me is if so many seem to be so unimpressed with everything why do they participate in the hobby? Why is it wrong to have your hobby turn into a business? Why cant you like what you want to like without taking a bunch of criticism for it from people who share the same or similar interests? Especially when others would love to see this hobby shut down...

One of my buddies would come over for some cold ones and to mess with snakes. We'd start with the high end morphs but regardless of that we'd still look at every normal corn too. As far as appreciating the beauty, or personalities of every snake...I can tell you to us they were all same, because we felt all snakes rule ya know?
Tom Stevens

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TomsSnakes.com

Totally agree here Tom. Getting involved just prior to the breeder explosion especially with ball python morphs it was definitely a different attitude. "Breeding?" the reaction went when just the mere presence of the animals was enough to fascinate for hours. Times have changed both for good and bad, but I do remember wanting to have one of everything the "postage stamp collection" mode of thinking seems to have died off.
Then again there have been LOTS of people who got in for the totally wrong reasons, especially in the ball python world. Mortgaging their homes on their breeding colonies or even just one or two animals. More power to the ones who it's paid off for, and the fact is making money rocks.
However, the attitude of "it's just a corn" or "it's just a king, milk, pit, etc." is the very attitude that ball python breeders ended up hearing about their own animals until the morph explosion happened. Not appreciating the snakes for what they are is like dismissing a classic movie or album just because it's old then you actually give it a view or a listen and you're amazed at it all over again.

This is what got me into snakes and has kept in this hobby so long........
ocuments and SettingsOwnerMy DocumentsMy PicturesOUR CORN SNAKES AND BOAS100_4433.jpg" alt="Image">

np

>>>ALL SNAKES RULE RIGHT?

i think so i love them all! and i recruit newbies everyday. i have found they are more fun and have ALOT more apprecieation than many "seasoned" herpers.
all snakes DO RULE
even these...




thomas"my calkings should be hatchin anyday"davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

YES! I agree completely! I appreciate all snakes! I have a variable king and two kenyan sand boas, and you know what I can still see a normal everyday garter snake at the store and be interested, it doesn't matter to me, what morph or species I like them all! of course I have my favorites, kingsnakes being the favorite but they still all interest me. I also think this applies to snakes in general right? like I heard some couple with their little kid at a reptile show once, and the little kid was so excited by this little corn snake, and I liked that little corn snake too he was healthy, alert looking and he was pushing his nose to try to get out, not in panicked state just the usual snake trying to escape, and I could see he was pushing really hard so he looked really healthy and strong if I got a corn that day he'd have been it, and then I hear one of the parents say something like "oh that's just a little weak snake, come on lets go look at the REAL snakes (boas/pythons)" and to me that sounded so IGNORANT. I mean really!? So what if it's just a corn snake, it's still a snake damn it, since when were the only snakes that qualified as interesting or "REAL" snakes had to be "big and cool". It's a shame I say! All snakes rock! =]
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Tom I am the same age and will see your opinion and raise you the PRICE LISTS of the late 80s and early 90s. To me, it was a great thing to FIND a new breeder or wholesaler and PAY them to mail you lists every month! "Normal" snakes....thats pretty much all you got.Anything "new" was a complete crapshoot, morphs were unknown. "Pics"-hardly ever, you had to be super-interested and make FRIENDS with the breeder to convince them to take and send you pics(it cost $10 to develop and sell em!)....to convince them you werent "just a pic collector". As a milksnake nut, there were lots of late night conversations(no such thing as cell phones or unlimited long distance)with other snake nuts around the country. If you wanted to know what the parents look like...you would look at pg 98 on one of the 7 decent reptile books available! Locale became a way to describe a snake without seeing the exact parents. Most people WANTED "normal" snakes...representative samples of the few pics we grew up drooling over.
Kingsnake.com ended all that. Everyone INSISTS on pics(I think I was the last holdout...attempting to sell on reputation alone), and its funny insisting on selling on reputation TURNED and hurt your reputation. Strange. With the internet everyone gets to see everything all the time, no need to keep one of these and one of those. And we all want to be different, and we all LOVE being RIGHT. New morphs, new breeding techniques, new NAMES etc, it takes alot of work to know all these things. But it also leveled the playing field, any 15 yr old kid can breed snakes and get a screenname and rip a fellow breeder because.....most dont need a reason. They are bored.
The once a year local shows dont exist anymore, now its 2-4 times a year and everyone has pretty much the same ball pythons and leopard geckos. You get to see FADS work their way through the hobby, kick the tires of guys you have seen on their websites. You know that for most people this is a phase that lasts 2-3 years, but for some of us its deeper than that. For us, we each do something different to keep our interest UP. We care for other guys snakes when they get a new girlfriend or wife who "doesnt like snakes"...and we return them when the girl leaves,lol.
I still think it strange that opinions and reputations arent more important than the snakes we work with. They dont have new ideas, they dont try new techniques, and they still are pieces of living art. As "older" breeders, we no longer get the respect from the 15-25 year old crowd that I know WE gave the older breeders when we were their age. Some of us have bristled to this more than once, I know I have been looking for anyone younger with the passion for NA milks that I have. Most of the guys I used to deal with, 90-95% are completely gone from the hobby, many have died. I know if there were other guys with the same interests I certainly would revert back to swapping babies rather than dealing with the crowds and idiots--oops, know it alls I meant. I have no problem sharing everything with everyone but its impossible to find other like-minded hobbyists even online. Its competitive, and one man's unique snake is anothers lottery ticket. Remember there are PEOPLE behind these snakes, and their stories are usually alot more interesting than the art they produce.

Jeff,

That is so true, I really miss the days when we all would get together and talk about our snake breedings, finds,trades, and problems"more problems than anything"...lol...The best part was the trading, do I miss a good old fashion get together trade session..lol.....You get 30 grown men with 20-50 snakes to trade and you never know what you are going to come home with....LOL

Also by going to these meeting with friends and other avid snake enthusists you would find yourself in areas that you normally wouldn't be and be able to possibly find snakes that you haven't ever seen...Many a trek across the U.S. has gifted me with some of the most beautiful snake finds that any one could ever ask 4..

The sad part is now adays it's hard to find anyone that even wants to go out and look 4 snakes,so many are to caught up in the "high end breeding" and they don't care to go and find the "normal" snakes......This is what got me in to snakes and to this day I go out an look 4 snakes,even by myself with my snake stick and snake bag in hand....

Well things change as life goes on and for me becoming a father changed a lot of things. I just dont have time to road cruise or go field herping, I used to fish a lot and dont much anymore and I spent many weeks on the road with bands as a musician. All of that comes after family, and we are kind of a busy family.
I live in Texas, before I moved here I spent about 2 years in Florida. Herpers paradise. Still....I just never found the time.

Now I intend to get out there and do some of those thinga again since my kid is not so little anymore, but other things came into play for me too.
I can tell you this. If I told my wife I was going out road cruising when gas was 4 bucks a gallon she'd tell me I was nuts and to go clean my snake room and mess with the hundreds of snakes we have right here at home haha!

I know theres a huge difference between being in the field and seeing snakes in cages but it was my dream to have tons of snakes at home when I was a kid and now that dream is a reality. So I dont dare complain....so I dont have time to do a lot of things. But I wanted snakes to be a big part of my life and they are. Good enough for me.

One thing I have to mention is something I have seen for myself and have heard plenty of stories about. Even back in 92 I was driving from NJ to CA and hittin random spots that looked good for herping on the way. More than once on that trip I'd find rocks flipped and not put back and places torn apart. Herpers beat me to it. You guessed it. not a snake to be found. Cleaned out. I know guys here in TX who take people to their hunting grounds to look around and when they return...their spots are turned inside out and no snakes to be found. Too many people still seem to think they can take snakes from the wild and though this is debateable...I am just not into it. Herpers who photograph and release, now that is cool. But guys who collect and keep snakes to sell? No way, I hate the thought of it. There's legendary scum here in Texas. Guys who'd keep EVERY reptile they came across thinking if it was not worth cash as a pet they could be sold as feeders. That kinda stuff keeps me in the captive born spirit....once in a blue moon I'd like to go herping...but for the most part I am happy enough with the snakes I have in my home.
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

I agree with what you are saying, but if its important you make the time,period. If its not important to you it wont be important to your kids, and is that the message you want them to have?
As a locality guy, I know that new blood is a MUST in any collection. Captive bred beyond F2 cant really be considered locality any more, and injecting new blood into an individual's collection offspring can then be sold as a benefitting factor. Do I recommend everyone to do it? Certainly not. But it does have its place.
You dont have to keep the snakes you find, most times its enough to find em, take some pics and let me go. To me its going to the gym and a grown up easter egg hunt in one! There will never be the sense of appreciation of a snake in a deli cup compared to one in the field. I know I cant put into words what this means so I suggest everyone make some time and find your favorite spot. Manage it, keep it, dont tell anyone else about it. Go see your wild snakes on a regular basis and see how they change through the seasons, through the years. It hurts when spots get developed, but its better therapy than you can buy in any pill.

Sure I understand but when locality animals have a demand suddenly extra herpers are there, many only there for a few days or a week...desperate for that new blood and wrecking habitat during thier quest.
Sure, you want to teach people to be careful about that. We hope to teach newbies a lot about what not to do as we know from experience and from those who were into this before us...
I intend to show my kid herps in the wild but after all I am in Texas and she just turned 7. Insects around here can land you in the ER. Snakes can kill you. She did catch her first fish this summer....snakes will come in due time.
If things are a bit backwards these days, and kids see snakes in deli cups before seeing them in the wild...hey, that doesn't mean they wont become field herpers or herpetologists for that matter.
I will say this........seeing an dirty muddy King in a cage is not gonna thrill me, but finding one under a board is freakin awesome haha!
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

You do realize that that dirty, muddy kingsnake selectively bred a couple generations later is now the prize of your collection right? Findy a dirty, muddy king beats buying the best looking one in a cup.Period.
And there are proper ways to hunt. The one I like to teach is knowing where the center of a population is...and hunting the outskirts without disturbing it. Example, a pile of debris. You could go right through it and likely find a few snakes down at the bottom....but you will ruin the habitat. Or you can take a few of the pieces, lay them out strategically so snakes are more likely to use them and treat your area like a farmer. Key being sustainable yield.

Agreed about rampant collecting and selling anything. I actually have seen classifieds for Brahminy blind snakes. These snakes are about the size of spaghetti and eat termite larvae! Saw an add recently for mud snakes (doubtless wild caught). Notoriously difficult to feed unless you haapen to have a freezer full of amphiumas!

Still, there was a time when it was really difficult to buy snakes; they just were not readily available. If we wanted to keep them, we collected them. I seriously doubt that this type of collecting did anything to impact natural populations. There just were not enough people keeping snakes to deplete most populations, with a few unfortunate exceptions (e.g. blotched kingsnakes, black pine snakes).

Today its the best of times and the worst of times for anyone who really digs these neat creatures. It is the best of times because you breeders make it possible for hobbyists like me to buy beautiful kingsnakes via a computer and have them delivered to my front door! I don't even have to drive to the airport anymore! How cool is that? It is the worst of times because I fear some really wonderful species will be extinct as sustaining natural populations in my lifetime. In particular, the future of many southeastern US pine flatwoods species is pretty grim.

Well, here's to you passionate breeders of kings, pines, milks, and corns. You produce some really fantastic snakes. Just don't forget to breed a few "wild type" non-morph, non-albinos. I will gladly take them off your hands.

I didnt purchase much last year but I sold a few Hondurans to make room for a trio of het for nothing Southern Pines. I have morphs too of course haha! However one pair of these will make plain old Pines and I am going to make het Axanthics with the other female. I dont have much room these days and morphs will dominate here, but I will have my eye out for some cool normal projects too. I think making any effort to preserve in captivity ANY reptiles that are on their way to becoming endangered is a great cause that lots of people would want to participate in. I actually looked into a project for captive breeding of Brazos Water snakes.... talk about a snake that wont be nothin but a hassle! It was a good thought but too late as theyre protected. ALways wanted LA Pines but cant have those in Texas either. Some nice Southerns will keep me entertained, and het nothing Southerns are very hard to come by,
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Taken one step further, see the milk forum and my embarrassing rant. So many people are worried about the legal aspect that they rationalize that the snakes are the same. What is important is not only WHAT you are doing but WHY. The pet store/snake show mentality certainly wont make any great biologists, and doesnt the knowledge of biology outweigh everything else?

That is one of the reason I go out "snake hunting"...I want to see how many hatchlings,yearlings and older snakes I find....Or the coolest part is finding a snake that I caught the year or 2 befor and seeing just how well it is doing...

I have to mention this, I have caught this certain Foxsnake" I call her mickey" becouse she has 8 mikey mouse ears on her body...I have caught her since she was a yearling and it is so nice to see her every year and seeing just how big she is getting and how well she is doing 4 her self....She is now 5 yrs old....

none the less the snakes around here seem to be fairing pretty well.......

As a newbie to the hobby, all I have to say is that I'm EXTREMELY thankful that this forum exists. Here I get as close as I can to a senior/mentor to glean wisdom from, though I do wish my location was more conducive to befriending you greats in the hobby. I do take reputation into account, and I have passed up a few good looking snakes in the classified because I didn't know the name or it was being sold by a 'distributor' (which really bothers me). Thanks for voicing all of your opinions and knowledge by experience on this forum!
BTW: I'm a girl, having a hard time with a boyfriend who doesn't want to take care of the snake! LOL!

Snakes ARE for the opinionated! 99% of people here are guys, so let me be the first to apologize for my locker room etiquette. Up here in Mass we got ourselves a strange sarcastic humor, but like conversations, you CAN have arguements with your friends! In the same room none of us would have a problem with anyone, but here where the challenge to be different takes on a different meaning so take what you can. Here a newbie can have a unique idea and a "expert" can blather on and on because he is drunk! Welcome! And tell us more about that beautiful snake!

Thanks for the welcome! Unfortunately I was dazzled by his looks.. Haha! I think it's more on the milksnake forum that hybrids are so abhorred, but he's the only snake I have as of yet. I got my boyfriend a greybanded for his birthday, but he left the tank open on the last day of fall before it hit way below zero up here in Montana, so she's gone...
I posted his pic up in the hybrid forum, but I can't figure out how to get it off of my posts, lol! But he's obviously part thayeri, but also albino nelsoni, which is the hybrid 'clown king', but he didn't get that yellow from those guys. I believe a clown king was bred to an apricot pueblan milk and this came out. Gorgeous boy, but not natural!
I'd love to get into herping and breeding, but as a 'starving college student' I don't have a lot of resources, so I resort to hobbying vicariously through this forum, haha!

That's a cool moniker, Jazmanian Devil! LOL, I like it! Cool looking snake too!
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Todd Hughes

Yeah.. a college friend came up with it when I got tired of people calling me Jazz, lol.

Tom, Im only a few years older than you, but didn't get into the hobby seriously until I met you! I was a field herper always, I had some snakes, turtles, and lizards as a kid but never bred them. i was just thinking on my way home from the Valley today, I wish I had started this 10 years ago, no 20 years ago, wonder where I'd be now, lol!
When I saw your collection, I was BLOWN AWAY!!! I came to see a little snake called an MBK, and when you showed me Big Momma, I was BLOWN AWAY!!!! I had to have one of YOUR MBKs, no, not one, not two but a trio, then when the WW specks came in, I was F-ING BLOWN AWAY, AGAIN!!! The WW's are astounding, but the hets were/are by far the most visually stunning "normal" specks I have ever had the pleasure of owning. These specks sent me off on a crusade to find the most southern Texas specks for my own line, the Calhouns, and they are yellow screamers in their own rights! But they pale in comparison. I like wild caught snakes, just my bag, but of all the snakes I own and have ever seen, these two subs of kings I have from you are the prizes in my king collection, they started me off on my own road to ruination, lol!
You have helped me so much with advice, but mainly I watched you over the years, developing the website, freaking out sometimes over some issues, then saw you come to your own realization about what YOU were going to do with YOUR part of this hobby, then sticking to your guns and riding them out. What I witnessed was your maturity showing through these trails, well, as much maturity as a Daytonite can show, lmao! Through you, I met some of the smartest, funniest,conscientious, and talented breeders in the business and the hardest partiers ever to grace the halls of Daytona:
Randy W., ratsnake hoarder and all around guru of species, rainer, the current King of kings and cool shirt guy, lmao!, jason Nelson, pit afficianado and Milf licker!, and sooo many others.
Dude, breed what you love and love what you breed, you have an awesome job, and I personally gave up trying to please everyone some time back. You are a great breeder, an awesome friend and an animal that should be caged, lol!!! Seriously, dude you rock, if anyone looks at any of your snakes and doesn't say something good, look at them the same way, bored with them and the time they are taking away from you. Your pics over the net are awesome, your site rocks, (it's about time for another article from you) and your collection is one of a kind. Screw those people, they aren't worth the worry, there are plenty of people who own little pieces of Tomssnakes!!!

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Todd Hughes

That Daytona party was something else huh? haha!
I will keep on keeping on ya know?

The thing not enough people seem to realize is though this forum rocks and is very popular it still represents only a tiny fraction of herpers young and old. We cant just live by the opinions of posters on here right?
Hell I never did anyway...and there were some GREAT FIGHTS! HAHA!

Still, I value this forum and the privilege to be part of it. Kingsnake.com has been very good to me.
Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate all you said brother!
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com
twitter.com/TomsSnakes

Well, I got off topic a little but Randy does have a lot of snakes, too many for his own good so he's unloading a couple my way soon! and Jason, get crackin' with those pits, son! You milfy sob! Heh, I can see both sides of the rack on this issue, I love to herp and I love what you guys and gals are breeding! I wouldn't trade my Calhoun county trio of holbrooki for any morphs, but I also will hold on to the pair of WW specks till the cows come home!

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Todd Hughes