Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Or is it just the principle of a ban? In reading the recent posts on a proposed ban on importation of Burmese pythons, would it really matter? Isn't there enough captive specimens to supply our hobby? Or are there still crazy morphs discovered in S.E. Asia to warrant importation so the breeders can produce them? This I dont know.
My only thing is, if we compromise our position and give an inch they will take a mile. I dont own a burmese, but I would always want the option to have one if I wanted.
What say you?
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

In my opinion as a reptile keeper and breeder, a ban on imports will do one great thing for the Burm community. It will make your animals more valuable when selling offspring. How cheap do you see import normals selling for at shows? They literally go for peanuts because they are readily available. If a ban is implemented, and I am sure it will be, the number of Burmese pythons coming into the country will be essentially zero. As a result, assuming demand is the same, production by priviate keepers is the only way to fill this. Given that Burms are not breed in massive numbers, the value of each individual, whether it be a normal or a morph, is likely to increase. Also, selling your captive bred stock will be easier, provided interstate sales are not banned, and I honestly cannot see that happening.

regarding new morphs coming in, ways are always found. Way that I do not agree with, but the rare morphs will continue to appear. Look at the carpet python morphs. Do you honestly beleive the albinos, for example, just happened to pop up in a captive collection. Personally I highly doubt that, and would be willing to genetically fingerprint albinos in the US and Europe and the original albino Darwin to prove relatedness. I do not agree with the means by which they enter the country, but there is no doubt that a rare new morph, despite a ban, will find its way in somehow.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

>>"assuming demand is the same"

I'm not saying you are wrong (and I really don't have much of an opinion on an import ban) since I really don't know that much about the Burmese python market. But imo, this is a big assumption. Basic law of demand dictates that demand decreases as price increases, especially for non-essential items like snakes.
Maybe the ban will *increase* demand... for other types of snakes to replace too-expensive Burms...

I also beleive demand will decrease slightly. With that said, I think demand will decrease in a good way. That way being the implusle purchases of a $25 burmese from a reptile show, flee market, or whatever. The people that are interested in owning a Burmese, and those, therefore that are more likely to care for such an animal, I am sure will be willing to pay extra for that animal.

Not being a Burm keeper or breeder, I do honestly believe that demand will still be there for quality captive bred animals, and those that produce should be able to sell without too much hassle for a reasonable price.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

Is this merely an import ban or would it also affect interstate shipment and sales?
Al Winstel

Dr,
Thank you for your input. If I was a Burmese breeder I would welcome your thoughts with a caveat. I cant imagine too many of us here thinking that a price increase would be such a bad thing. It (a) makes the hobby more profitable for those who choose to breed, and (b) it acts as another safeguard as people paying a higher price for their reptile would most likely be more informed on its husbandry. The deal breaker would be the interstate commerce ban.
Maybe its a little selfish of me but I dont think I would have much of a problem with a import ban on any snake. There are very few desirable specimens that cannot be obtained here on Kingsnake alone. If I am not mistaken Australia bans the export of Aspidites species. You can find those snakes for sale here, but they are pricey.
I am uneasy trusting the loons who craft legislation. Its one thing to compromise about an import ban. It's another to wake up and find that our hobby was outlawed.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

>>Or is it just the principle of a ban?

No. It is the fact interstate commerce will ALSO be banned. And also the breeding and also the sales and also the gifting.

If HR669 or some similar legislation the reptile breeding biz in it's entirety will be damaged so severely it may never recover.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

Yes, but HR669 and S373 are two different bills.

Not many legislators were crazy about HR669 as it was written. I think if S373 banned the IMPORT of Burms, then bills such as HR669 would lose some steam. I think some legislators would satisfied with that minimal effort...banning the importation of some threatening species into the US without affecting the interstate trade and business of their constituents.

I'll be the first to admit that I could possibly be reading too much into this, being too deeply concerned - however, please take note of what I think is an interesting statement by a USARK official, Dr. Booth, posted above.

"Not being a Burm keeper or breeder, I do honestly believe that demand will still be there for quality captive bred animals, and those that produce should be able to sell without too much hassle for a reasonable price."

Also, please note that my question in the "USARK??" thread pertaining to this has gone unanswered.

Take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Hey HH if you read my post at the bottom of this thread it isnt ment to be bad .... lol

Tom

So thats the difference between the h669 and s373? I remember h669 failing in committee because it was so broad and encompassed so many animals.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

In a broad nutshell...HR669 sought to ban the sale/import/trade/ownership of any nonnative species that the committee deemed harmful. S373 is a specific python ban that sought to do the same with python genera in the beginning, but it is being whittled down to target Burms only. The hope is that the wording it to will be aimed at the importation of WC Burms only and everyone will be happy.

HH, I know we see this differently and for different reasons. I don't breed Burms and probably never will in my lifetime. I'm happy to just be able to keep my one big fella. While I don't want to sound like I'm sacrificing the interest of my fellow herpers, I'd be happy with an import ban if USARK felt confident that it would stop there.

I also know that PETA isn't in on this one, so I don't fear that aspect either. They're working with the Guam representative to re-write HR669.

USARK was suppose to have a meeting with Sen. Bill Nelson last week to discuss the Burm import only aspect of the bill. I haven't heard any news from that meeting or if it ever happened, but I did get their email to send letters and emails to Nelson. I can only assume that it didn't go over very well since USARK isn't talking about it. Therefore you can forget about the burm import only ban. This bill as written will ban all pythons, period.

I hate the fact that USARK put this info out there and aren't updating anyone about it. I see too many people saying that it's burms only when it's not. We are sending an email to USARK today to find out what went on in the meeting or if it ever happened since the won't tell us. I suggest that everyone do the same. They can't put info out there and then leave us hanging.

I'm not blasting on you Laura, since Warren Booth (USARK) is part of this thread I thought it would be a good place to bring this up. Hopefully USARK will reply here or better yet start a thread on this topic and send out emails about it.
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

There is nothing to update anyone on yet because there hasn't been a meeting yet. We have been promised a meeting, but it does not look like it will happen till early Aug.

The ONLY thing that has been discussed with Nelsons office is removing ALL other pythons from S373, and limiting the scope of the bill to the IMPORT of Burmese Pythons ONLY.

Right now the bill would BAN the IMPORT, EXPORT and INTERSTATE TRANSPORT of the entire genus python. There is no guarantee that USARK will be successful in getting Nelson to amend S373. As it stands it is a BAN on ALL pythons.

ONLY if we are successful will the damage be limited to the IMPORT of Burmese Pythons ONLY.

There is much sympathy in the Senate for this bill. Barbara Boxer is behind it, and she is the Chair of the EPW Committee where it now sits. Anyone that doesn't think that some form of this bill is going to pass is in DENIAL. The question is "Can we have an impact on what is ultimately passed?"
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Andrew Wyatt
President USARK

Andrew,

Thanks for clearing that up. We look forward to getting more news after your meeting. Having gone through the hoops of getting a meeting with my congressman, I can certainly understand how difficult it can be to pin these guys/gals down. Best of luck in your meeting.

Thanks again.
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Randy and Michelle
Art In Scales
(719) 439-4199
info@artinscales.com

I doubt that it would target Burms only. I know how the feds work when they classify animals. They will target one and ban others based on "similarity of appearance". Everyone here knows the difference between the python species but the average wildlife officer unbelievably does not. Now that ball pythons may be in the crosshairs, I wonder how long it will take them to act. They have the most to lose with any kind of ban.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

"HH, I know we see this differently and for different reasons. I don't breed Burms and probably never will in my lifetime. I'm happy to just be able to keep my one big fella. While I don't want to sound like I'm sacrificing the interest of my fellow herpers, I'd be happy with an import ban if USARK felt confident that it would stop there."

Actually, I don't think our views are very different. I wouldn't say I'd be "happy" with an import ban, but I do think it's something that we can all live with - as long as it DOES stop there.

I'm pretty sure that you don't mean that you would be joyful if they banned the import of Burmese pythons, just that you'd be happy if that's all they did. I can understand that and pretty much agree.

To try to keep this thread from getting too far off topic, let me state my position on the original question:
"Would an import ban really matter? Or is it just the principle of a ban?"

From my viewpoint I don't think a ban on the importation of Burmese pythons will be much of a deal. Please keep in mind that I am talking about just a ban on Burmese python imports & no other regulations, restrictions, etc.

I don't believe it would affect the overall market one way or another. Dr. Booth has a valid point though about it possibly doing away with the low cost wild-caught or captive-hatched imports that make it easier & more enticing for a fool to be a fool. (Not exactly his words.)

Personally, I can live such a ban. However, if someone in the import trade can present a reasonable arguement as to why they shouldn't be banned, I may alter my stance on it. Since I'm not an importer I don't want to just up & jump on any bandwagon that could be headed down the wrong trail.

Sorry folks, but I've got to say it. I am 95% certain that any ban stemming from S373 will have other, detrimental restrictions, regulations. Mark my words. Gee, I hope I'm wrong.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Yes, thanks for interpreting my post for me. I've noticed that my posts have taken a sharp or hasty edge to them lately...it must be stress.

I did mean that I would be satisfied with an import ban if it would end there...not jumping with joy. Now, I'm not in the Burm business, but I think the ban sounds like a principle thing for both sides. I also think Nelson may lean toward an import ban of all python genera.

i am a rescue and a 1 owner of a burmese python personaly i love the burmese pythons mine is 11 ft she is my 2nd burm i have owned in 15 years and was a survivor of hurricane ike in galveston texas i live in virginia , the ban is just another way to control our hobby we have , i think the problem that has caused all this mess in florida is pet stores are not educating people who want these snakes and that is why the govt is trying to ban these beutifule snakes , i could see inforcing the microchipping and permits for owning them but not a ban on the burms but thats the govt and local govt in each state , i myself have to have a liability insurance policy in where i live and a exotic pet permit in this city there is no microchip law which i would like to see to keep the animal control from killing these snakes , no i say no to the ban on burms or any other snake period , just my two cents worth .
virginia python rescue
m.hicks
www.virginiapythonrescue.com

I know alot of people have responeded to this but being that I live in Florida where we are being over run by Burms that are taking out the populations of some of the native wildlife I have the atitude kill them all. Now let me clarify on that comment I am not talking about the Burms that are kept by responsable owners. The ones that I am speaking of are the ones that are in the Everglades as well as the population that is taking up in Venice Fl. In recent weeks there was the albino burm in central Florida with the most irresponsable owner I have personally seen and the one that was found here in Pinellas county not far from where I live. I also think that the pit of Burms in South Carolina is a joke if you take an animal and put them in a pit and give them what they need to live they will survive.

remember this is just my opinion. But with all the morphs of burms that are out there we don't need to be importing them anyway. My last thought on this remember that the ban includes interstate transport and this will kill the small breeders and the person that has to go out of state to secure a burm for a pet.

Some of you may not like the comment I made killem all but as a resident of the state of Florida and as I see the populations of released Burms growing and the amount of inexperienced keepers that think a Burm is a good starter snake.

It Is What It Is

Tom