Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
Maybe you guys can help me…!? Since I have a big homepage about bearded dragons (mostly in Swedish, but in English as well http://www.morion.com/teo/) I get a lot of emails from people wondering about stuff. I get the question “what substrate shall I use?” a lot.

I use bran myself and I recommend that, or papertowels for babies. I would like to make a page about different substrates – the advantages and disadvantages with each substrate. Maybe that can help the people that are wondering. And I am a bit sick and tired to get into the argument “why can’t I use sand / calci sand?!” – I just don’t have the best arguments – so I need your help.

Does anyone know about a site that brings up different kinds of substrates?

Any site that brings up “why not use sand / calci sand”?

Do *you* have some information about some substrates that *you* want to share? (If so – am I allowed to show your input at my homepage?)

Your input will help a lot of Swedish dragon owners (I will translate it into Swedish) – there really aren’t many pages about BD’s in Swedish, so I get most of the hits. That is why I want my page to be as informative as possible.

Thanks in advance!
/Gunilla

Ps. If you know any "horror stories" (or links to pages that tells a story) about any kind of substrate - please tell me them as well. I would like people to know how dangerous sand (for example) CAN be.
Thanks!

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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

Hi Gunilla.

I've been trying to find those horror stories concerning substrates and impaction, or death from ingestion, myself. Especially concerning walnut shell.

So far all I've found are anecdotal, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th hand accounts along the lines of "I've heard..blah blah" or "somebody told me..blah blah blah".

Very little detail or first-hand knowledge, and even fewer instances where a necropsy was done to acertain exactly what killed the animal.

So, folks... I'm with Gunilla on this one; Ya got good sources of info on substrates, then please...let's have 'em.

D.A.

What substrate do you use?
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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

You're welcome.

We have our two smaller ones that are housed together on play sand, and our larger one on ground walnut shell litter.
We've gone back and forth with the larger one between play sand and the litter, but the litter just works out better for her.

D.A.

Hm... but I have heard that crushed walnutshells is the worst to use... Are you sure it is safe?

>>You're welcome.
>>
>>We have our two smaller ones that are housed together on play sand, and our larger one on ground walnut shell litter.
>>We've gone back and forth with the larger one between play sand and the litter, but the litter just works out better for her.
>>
>>D.A.
>>
>>
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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

Well, crushed walnut shell.... NO. It's not safe. It's generally very large-grained, and has most of the characteristics of broken glass. ( Very hard, very sharp, and indigestable. )
The ground stuff on the other hand is small-grained, much smoother, and passes through the dragons ( and iguanas ) without any ill effect.

As I've said before, I'm fairly sure that walnut has gotten a bad reputation because of people using the crushed stuff, or using it for birds.

Birds have a crop or gizzard, and swallow small stones to grind their food in that crop. Alligators and crocodiles are the only lizards I know of that also have a crop and ingest "crop stones".

I can only imagine the damage crushed walnut or some other sharp-edged substrate would do to a bird's insides.

D.A.

I thought you were talking about the "Desert Blend". I didn't know there was different kinds of "walnut bedding". I live in Sweden and we don't have that many different kind of substrates. Even SAND is expensive - so I am trying to learn more about different kind of substrates. And what’s dangerous and what’s not. It is difficult - everyone is using different stuff and has very different opinions about it!

/Gunilla

>>Well, crushed walnut shell.... NO. It's not safe. It's generally very large-grained, and has most of the characteristics of broken glass. ( Very hard, very sharp, and indigestable. )
>>The ground stuff on the other hand is small-grained, much smoother, and passes through the dragons ( and iguanas ) without any ill effect.
>>
>>As I've said before, I'm fairly sure that walnut has gotten a bad reputation because of people using the crushed stuff, or using it for birds.
>>
>>Birds have a crop or gizzard, and swallow small stones to grind their food in that crop. Alligators and crocodiles are the only lizards I know of that also have a crop and ingest "crop stones".
>>
>>I can only imagine the damage crushed walnut or some other sharp-edged substrate would do to a bird's insides.
>>
>>
>>D.A.
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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

Um... I was talking about litters like ESU's "Desert blend". It's what I have here now, and it's ground not crushed.

I first used it several years back with my iguanas, and am using it now. No problems to report so far.

The "Bad walnut shell", I'm quite sure, is usually marketed for people that reload their own rifle and pistol cartridges, and is supposed to be used in tumblers to clean brass cases. It's large, sharp, and CHEAP. I suspect some herpers tried that for their reptiles early on, and got a bad lesson.

Not sure though, and am still trying to find info to either confirm or deny this.

Sorry for the confusion.

D.A.

Hm.... from what I have heard that is not good to use - it can cause impaction. But - I don't know where I read that. That is one of the reasons I try to gather information about substrates. To find out what people think. It is SO difficult to choose a good substrate. None seems to be totally safe...

>>Um... I was talking about litters like ESU's "Desert blend". It's what I have here now, and it's ground not crushed.
>>
>>I first used it several years back with my iguanas, and am using it now. No problems to report so far.
>>
>>The "Bad walnut shell", I'm quite sure, is usually marketed for people that reload their own rifle and pistol cartridges, and is supposed to be used in tumblers to clean brass cases. It's large, sharp, and CHEAP. I suspect some herpers tried that for their reptiles early on, and got a bad lesson.
>>
>>Not sure though, and am still trying to find info to either confirm or deny this.
>>
>>
>>Sorry for the confusion.
>>
>>
>>D.A.
>>
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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

Yes, I'm afraid you're correct and that there's no such thing as a "perfect" substrate.
I keep my dragons one way, and they're fine. You might do the same and have a complete disaster. Or vise versa.

One example of that is people keeping their dragons on paper towels.

We tried it with our two little ones for about a week. They wouldn't come down off their basking area except to eat, and then only briefly. They moved very little, and seemed to sulk all the time.

We put them back on sand and they immediately went back to running the tank, chasing crickets, etc.

I guess it just goes to show that when it comes right down to it, it's all up to the dragons and what they like or don't like.

D.A.

its for parrots, but the same applies.. there are some accounts of death from substate at the bottom also

substrates

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reiko
photos

my girl Kinta that came to us may of last year, she became impacted, we treated her and she passed "sani chips" (a wood chip type bedding) ultimatly the subsrate caused internal injury and she passed away in june. i would not risk my dragons to any sort of substrate that i feel could be risky if ingested. it was terrible to watch her die, i dont know why anyone would take the chance with anything of the sort, stones, wood chips or shavings of any kind or aquarium rock. lessening the risk by feeding the dragons in a different enclosure is great, but why risk it at all.

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reiko
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Oh yes... I remember Kinta - poor little girl.
I felt so sorry for you and her last year. You were trying so hard to save her. Can I translate your story and put it at my homepage. Is that ok? So it can save other little dragons...

/Gunilla

>>my girl Kinta that came to us may of last year, she became impacted, we treated her and she passed "sani chips" (a wood chip type bedding) ultimatly the subsrate caused internal injury and she passed away in june. i would not risk my dragons to any sort of substrate that i feel could be risky if ingested. it was terrible to watch her die, i dont know why anyone would take the chance with anything of the sort, stones, wood chips or shavings of any kind or aquarium rock. lessening the risk by feeding the dragons in a different enclosure is great, but why risk it at all.
>>
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>>reiko
>> photos
>>
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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

sure that would be fine Gunilla. It was sad to loose her, she fought but we couldnt do anything to save her, even though she passed the chips she was hurt internally and this caused her death.
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reiko
photos

...at least you are preventing other people from doing the same by telling the story about Kinta! That's what I do about Hexxen - the baby that got killed by Cicero (he thought she was food... I think it has helped that I tell the tragic story online. At least I have got a lot of emails from people that thanked me. They say they had no idea that it was so dangerous. So hopefully little Hexxen's death wasn't in vain...

/Gunilla
In memory of Hexxen

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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

sand can cause impaction in 1600 pound animals, and they arent eating mouthfulls, this is sand taken in during daily eating and nibbling around, sand colic in horses is not uncommon for those kept primarily on sand, we do what we can to keep their food up and off the sand but we still have to take precautions, we put down rubber mats around the feeding areas, we treat them with Psyllium to help pick up and remove the sand from their systems, like in dragons the sand builds up in horses and causes blockage, it doesnt happen overnight. just another veiw, and i feel a good example that applies to our dragons.
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reiko
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that dragon live food on the sani (wood) chips?

happened before i had her, she had already ingested the chips and went downhill quickly shortly after i got her. When she passed them she got a little better, ate some, but then a day later she got worse then before.
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reiko
photos

>>its for parrots, but the same applies.. there are some accounts of death from substate at the bottom also
>>
>>
>>substrates
>>
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>>reiko
>> photos
>>
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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

Thanks Reiko.

But I have to say, I think some substrates that would be safe for dragons and other lizards would be deadly for birds.

As I said in my reply to Gunilla, a bird's crop is a bad place for walnut shell, wood chips, corn cob etc.

D.A.

i think a dragons tummy is also a bad place for any of those substrates. hookbills do not use grit or anything of the sort to digest their foods, the problems are occuring past the crop of the bird and down lower in the digestive tract

"I had a breeder find her male macaw dead one morning. She had the bird for about a year....... When we opened the bird's body we discovered that there were signs of bleeding into the bowel. The gizzard and proventriculus were both distended with bloody food and small corn cob bedding. There was so much cob in there that there was very little room for food. Like grit, the corn cob bedding was inert and stayed in the gizzard. Unlike grit, the stuff swelled. And this bird had not had access to corn cob bedding for over a year."

"Another notable necropsy was on an Amazon. He too died suddenly. His proventriculus was markedly thickened and his bowel, just past the gizzard, showed gross evidence of bleeding. His gizzard was FULL of walnut shell bedding. He had only had access to the bedding for about two hours a month before death."

"An eight week old Senegal baby started to regurgitate and have variable crop emptying time. The next day the same baby started passing bloody droppings. We started antibiotics and he improved for 24 hours. Then he started to pass walnut shell bedding in his droppings - 3 to 5 pieces per dropping. He had been parent raised for his first sixteen days. His parents were in a cage over a tray of walnut shell bedding that was thought to be out of reach due to a cage bottom grill. That is as close as the young one got to the bedding. After three days of treatment he passed a dropping containing about fifteen pieces of the bedding, and Died."

sure these substrates can damage the birds crop but those are accounts of what those substrates did once passed from the crop down further into their bodies.
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reiko
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hookbills do not need... rather then do not use grit...etc
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reiko
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the gizzard or gizurd is the thick-walled muscular pouch below the crop in many birds and or reptiles. The substrate thing is just my opinion on what i feel is safe, everyone is different and i am in no way trying to argue but rather just trying to offer gunilla what i know and my experience with different animals and different substrates and their effects on them. everyone needs to do what works for them and their dragons, husbandry will differ as will opinions.
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reiko
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Oh don't worry, Reiko.
I'm just discussing here, not arguing.
I'm rather thick-skinned, and not easily offended.

Besides, if I had no interest in what other people have to say on the subject of reptiles, or my opinions and observations concerning them, I wouldn't be here typing at you know.

Schools and books are fine, but observation, and the observations of others, are better sometimes, I think. Especially with an animal that hasn't had many decades of study devoted to it.

D.A.

i dont want to upset anyone at all... all opinions and info is accepted on this end
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reiko
photos

that you are correct, and I did substitue "crop" for "gizzard".

Around here, the two terms are used interchangably, even though they're two different organs.

But then, most birds here are either food or just ignored, and hunters and farmers aren't generally known for their knowledge of anatomy.

Just goes to prove I shouldn't post while trying to do something else as well, I guess.

D.A.

"But then, most birds here are either food or just ignored"

thought that was very funny... lol
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reiko
photos

I think by far it is the best substrate for adults, sub adults, and babies if you wanted to. I use paper towels for babies, but for all my other dragons I use an indented brown paper. There is no dust, no spot cleaning, no stinky substrate, no heavy buckets or bags of sand, and its easy to make fit in any cage with some folding if necessary. When you clean with this paper, you take out the paper which is taking out all the feces. Plus that makes it easier to disinfect more often as you just have to take out the paper and the dragons and then spray down the cage. It is not expensive, but also not cheap as sand either. You can purchase it in different widths, and you can also buy the dispenser which lets you set the paper in it and tear of pieces as you need. By far the best change I made with how I keep my dragons.
Link for paper

Ah, that was interesting! I haven't heard of anyone using this kind of paper before! Sounds safe!

But - isn't it "slippry"? I know my dragons doesn't like newspaper very much, since they can't "get a good grip" on it.

Thanks for your input! Can I translate it and put it at my site?
/Gunilla

>>I think by far it is the best substrate for adults, sub adults, and babies if you wanted to. I use paper towels for babies, but for all my other dragons I use an indented brown paper. There is no dust, no spot cleaning, no stinky substrate, no heavy buckets or bags of sand, and its easy to make fit in any cage with some folding if necessary. When you clean with this paper, you take out the paper which is taking out all the feces. Plus that makes it easier to disinfect more often as you just have to take out the paper and the dragons and then spray down the cage. It is not expensive, but also not cheap as sand either. You can purchase it in different widths, and you can also buy the dispenser which lets you set the paper in it and tear of pieces as you need. By far the best change I made with how I keep my dragons.
>>Link for paper
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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

No its not slippery.....this is indented paper which means it has a texture to it so it stays flat and they have decent grip running on it to chase those crix. Translate away, lol

>>No its not slippery.....this is indented paper which means it has a texture to it so it stays flat and they have decent grip running on it to chase those crix. Translate away, lol
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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

In the wild, they are on sand, aren't they?

When reading past posts, I understood that cali-sand would be okay if you made sure that you fed your baby in a separate bowl so that the crickets would not touch the sand. This was what I had intended on doing. I might be getting a 4 or 5 month old.

there's very little sand in australia, by all accounts.
Here, have a look at this site:
coloherp.org/cb-news/archive/nature/ozdragon.php

As you may have gathered by now, the whole "which is the best substrate" argument is far from settled. All any of us can really do is talk to other people that keep beardies, and decide for ourselves what sounds best, then see how it goes.

As you've seen here on the forums, some like play sand, others...something else.

The consensus seems to be though that play sand is generally safe for adult dragons or juviniles over 10 inches long, even if it's not perfect.

Hope this makes things a little less cloudy.

D.A.

One of the places I researched suggested using a combination of sterilized, screened potted soil and washed play sand. That sounds like a really nice combination. But blue sand looks so nice....

We tried the dirt and play sand mix. The only draw-back is the dragons stays dull and dingy-looking, even with lots of baths.

D.A.

and it works fine for me...

they are the best even though they are kinda expensive, but to me its worth it, a 10lb reptisand bag is anywhere from 8-10 dollars, thats what i use, its made by zoomed its extremely fine real desert sand

What makes it the best substrate by far?

>>What makes it the best substrate by far?
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Teo - A Bearded Dragon

"its made by zoomed its extremely fine real desert sand"

Unless it's sand from Australia, it's just as foreign to beardies as play sand.
Also, what's the make-up of it? Silica, limestone, decayed granite? If it's mostly silica, it's no better than play sand, just more expensive.

D.A.

np

but hey, I didn't ask where zoo-med's desert-making facility was located.

'Cause that's the only way they can "make" real desert sand.

Okay okay.... I'll quit being a smart-a$$ now.

But only for a little while.

D.A.