Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Some years ago I purchased a male imported Ball Python that I thought was a Fire. This year I bred him for the first time to several normal females. The first clutch of 6 hatched with 2 normal, 3 that I thought were Fires, and one I thought was a Firefly. After talking to a few people I chalked that up to a "spontaneous mutation" or simply a fluke of luck.
Four days ago I had a clutch of 10 hatch and had 4 normal, 3 that look like fires, and 3 that look like Fireflies. NO PASTELS HAVE EVER BEEN INVOLVED ANYWAY WITH THESE SNAKES!
It seems like this male has some hidden gene that throws double morphs! I didn't realize that this was even possible. Can someone give me some info or theory of what is actually going on? I'm enclosing pics of the male, individual pics of 2 morphs, and comparison pics of the two morphs. Frankly I'm confused on what is going on here. Are these Fires and Fireflies? Naturally I'm hoping that there is some weird super that can be produced or perhaps 2 supers. Who knows? Any insight would be helpful! Thank you in advance.

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

wow Tom, nice luck you got there.

BTW, isnt that horseshoe that you have crammed up your rearend uncomfortable?
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Thanks
Chad Ramsey

Here are pics of some from the first clutch of 6 I had hatch. One is a pic of a "Fire" and the other a "Firefly". This is the clutch where I thought the "Firefly" was a fluke. Actually I don't know at this point what to think and certainly don't have a clue what they are. The male looks like a Fire but is unproven as it was a weird ranched baby...

Here are more pics of the male that produces these odd neonates...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom

it looks like your "wildtype" animal could be a cross...Fire to Russo Het BEL...or something like it...when you bred it...you got fires...the combo...and "normals" that may not be so normal. With Ralph Davis he had the experince with the original Platty Daddy...his normal 1st generation offspring actually carried the gene for the Platty.
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Michael Enriquez

...type gene (Vanilla-like) rather than Fire with a BEL Super based on these hatchlings patterns AND color.
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Bill Buchman

The male could be a pastel or carry another genetic trait that does not fall under the same allele as the Fire trait and could then pass both traits to the offspring. Just like Pewters which carry Cinnamon and Pastel traits can produce Pewters from normal females.

I too have a strange female, that I bought at a Pittsburgh show back in 04' I refer to her as the "yellow Pittsburgh" animal! When bred to pastels, she throws unbelievable animals! I'm beginning to think she is part of that 'vanilla" thing, cause she just cleans everything up! I tried her w/a YB this year w/no results!

To be honest Tom, I don't think that they are true Fires. The 'Mickey Mouse' marking is on the head but the colouring of the body just doesn't say 'Fire'. These may well be 'Spectres' or 'Spectors' as you Yanks spell it.
They are definitely worth working with and prove worthwhile.
Eric Davies

Do the two different morph looks of the offspring fall along gender lines?

Some day we might run into a mutation on the z chromosome that would look different in males (zz) than females (zw).

If the two looks aren’t segregated by gender I would go with one of the other poster's idea that the male is a combo of different mutations on different genes. Maybe one of the mutations looks pretty normal but when it happens to combine with the more visible standalone one is making the 2nd visible morph type. But in this scenario the dad would have to be a the combo too. So maybe see which type looks more like him as they grow.

Tom,

Take a look at Vin Russo's "congo" ball it (like the russo het leucistic and the vanilla) is another subtle mutation that takes an average line of pastel and turns them in fantastic Lemon look-a likes.

As for Fires, they are highly variable, they can be bright and crazy looking or drab and nearly normal out of the egg.

From the 10 egg clutch did you produce babies to have the combo, the "fire", the hidden gene, and normals? Never the less, you have an interesting problem on your hands.

Jeff Byers

Yes I produced all three. Check my other post and pics here...thanks...My point is it produces 2 morphs in a single clutch...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Fires are commonplace now Tom, those are more than a little bit different and I tend to agree with Bill's comments re 'Vanilla type' gene.
Lovely 'new' mutation and a nice problem to sort out. Keep all the 'Super' type and female 'Father' type back and prove it out.
Best of luck Tom!!
Eric Davies

Are both morphs seen in the same gender of babies?

Hi Randy and yes both sexes are represented but heavy females on both. ONE VERY INTERESTING FACT IS THAT THE BELLIES ON THE "FIREFLY LOOKING SNAKES" DO NOT HAVE CLEAR BELLIES BUT HAVE SOME BLACK SPOTTING. Nothing like most other morph bellies....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com