Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why are we throwing the baby out with the bath water? First of all if a burmese python had a snow ball’s chance in…. to survive outside of the miniscule feral range they currently inhabit, then boa constrictors from Mexico would be all over the United States. This whole proposal is being based solely off of the damage done by the brown snake in Guam, and now we are allowing jurisprudence to be set to permit the allocation of a number of other species (which most keepers are trying to “protect” while throwing Burms and Rocks to the wolves) to the injurious species lists, which sets them on the chopping block of being banned. All of the ball python keepers out there, that won’t come out of bed to defend Burms... Just wait until your pets are on the chopping block. Think about how much more injurious and potentially dangerous ball pythons will be to the wild than a brown snake? Ball python, Boa constrictor and colubrid breeders are among the largest sects of our community. If you think you’re not next, you need to trade in your rose colored glasses. We’re all going to get hammered on this in the long run if we don’t fight together. Get up off of your chairs and fight people!
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Jay Vella

When I was told by the congressional aides that I spoke with when I called that the list was being paired down to Burms and possibly Rocks and Retics, I told them I still opposed the measure, for exactly the reasons you stated. I don't know when we came off those speaking points in our opposition (local issue vs. national issue, fact and science vs. emotion and ignorance), but I think it may have been a miscalculation.

With that being said, it is still critical everyone call to oppose the proposed resolution. According to the PIJAC notice, some of the congressmen present suggested that not enough was known about the issue to make an informed decision. Thank goodness someone sitting at the table had the sense to realize that. Now what we need to do is to get some credible reptile experts in front of them.

Just my opinion.

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

Jay, I agree with everything you said. Burmese and other large pythons have a better chance of establishing a colony on the Moon than they do in the states. Great point you bought up about boa constrictors not being found in the states even though they have easy access. No one brings up the point that even in the south of Florida the low temperatures combined with extreme low humidity will most certainly kill off 99% of the neonate pythons. Andrew

>>
>>With that being said, it is still critical everyone call to oppose the proposed resolution. According to the PIJAC notice, some of the congressmen present suggested that not enough was known about the issue to make an informed decision. Thank goodness someone sitting at the table had the sense to realize that. Now what we need to do is to get some credible reptile experts in front of them.
>>

Wow, some congressmen actually had some common sense. Maybe there is a small ray of hope. Anything short of this bill being scrapped altogether (with no amendments) is not only not a victory for the hobby, but it's a tragedy for all Americans. If "we the people" continue to allow self-serving politicians and taxpayer funded scientists to run wild, we will all lose in the end. Junk science can be used to ban anything.

I believe Boa constrictors are ALREADY being targeted. In the following two articles, note the phrase "nine large constrictor snakes." One of the article specifically states boa constrictors:

http://www.doi.gov/news/09_News_Releases/071709.html

http://www.nps.gov/ever/parknews/usgs-maps-show-potential-non-native-python-habitat-along-3-us-coasts.htm

Also, at least one of the prominent scientists pushing the anti-snake agenda has deemed BALL PYTHONS as very high risk:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16022706

Thanks,
Ed

using to combat the "junk science".

Pyron RA, Burbrink FT, Guiher TJ.
Department of Biology, The Graduate School and University Center, The City University of New York, New York, New York, United States of America. rpyron@gc.cuny.edu

BACKGROUND: Recent reports from the United States Geological Survey (USGS) suggested that invasive Burmese pythons in the Everglades may quickly spread into many parts of the U.S. due to putative climatic suitability. Additionally, projected trends of global warming were predicted to significantly increase suitable habitat and promote range expansion by these snakes. However, the ecological limitations of the Burmese python are not known and the possible effects of global warming on the potential expansion of the species are also unclear. METHODOLOGY/PRINCIPAL FINDINGS: Here we show that a predicted continental expansion is unlikely based on the ecology of the organism and the climate of the U.S. Our ecological niche models, which include variables representing climatic extremes as well as averages, indicate that the only suitable habitat in the U.S. for Burmese pythons presently occurs in southern Florida and in extreme southern Texas. Models based on the current distribution of the snake predict suitable habitat in essentially the only region in which the snakes are found in the U.S. Future climate models based on global warming forecasts actually indicate a significant contraction in suitable habitat for Burmese pythons in the U.S. as well as in their native range. CONCLUSIONS/SIGNIFICANCE: The Burmese python is strongly limited to the small area of suitable environmental conditions in the United States it currently inhabits due to the ecological niche preferences of the snake. The ability of the Burmese python to expand further into the U.S. is severely limited by ecological constraints. Global warming is predicted to significantly reduce the area of suitable habitat worldwide, underscoring the potential negative effects of climate change for many species.
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uncommonboa.com

Agreed. There is also the common sense factor. While I don't own Burms, I'm sure many Burm owners can testify that Burms will perish fairly quickly when temps dip below a certain temperature.
So in addition to the scientific study you posted, there is also empirical evidence to debunk the junk.

I don't understand why seemingly so many blindly agree that the pythons are catastrophic to the Everglades environment/ecosystem in the first place. What exactly is the evidence to support that aside from a few hand-picked anecdotes of stomach contents? And aren't the same forces pushing the idea that Burms can inhabit 1/3 of the country (which most snake owners believe is crap) also pushing the idea that the Burms are catastrophicly harmful to the local ecosystem?

I would highly recommend everyone in the reptile hobby investigate/research *everything* that pertains to this issue themselves rather than believing anyone or any organization.

Thanks,
Ed

>>using to combat the "junk science".
>>
>>
>>
>>Pyron RA, Burbrink FT, Guiher TJ.
>>Department of Biology, The Graduate School and University Center, The City University of New York, New York, New York, United States of America. rpyron@gc.cuny.edu
>>
>>BACKGROUND: Recent reports from the United States Geological Survey (USGS) suggested that invasive Burmese pythons in the Everglades may quickly spread into many parts of the U.S. due to putative climatic suitability. Additionally, projected trends of global warming were predicted to significantly increase suitable habitat and promote range expansion by these snakes. However, the ecological limitations of the Burmese python are not known and the possible effects of global warming on the potential expansion of the species are also unclear. METHODOLOGY/PRINCIPAL FINDINGS: Here we show that a predicted continental expansion is unlikely based on the ecology of the organism and the climate of the U.S. Our ecological niche models, which include variables representing climatic extremes as well as averages, indicate that the only suitable habitat in the U.S. for Burmese pythons presently occurs in southern Florida and in extreme southern Texas. Models based on the current distribution of the snake predict suitable habitat in essentially the only region in which the snakes are found in the U.S. Future climate models based on global warming forecasts actually indicate a significant contraction in suitable habitat for Burmese pythons in the U.S. as well as in their native range. CONCLUSIONS/SIGNIFICANCE: The Burmese python is strongly limited to the small area of suitable environmental conditions in the United States it currently inhabits due to the ecological niche preferences of the snake. The ability of the Burmese python to expand further into the U.S. is severely limited by ecological constraints. Global warming is predicted to significantly reduce the area of suitable habitat worldwide, underscoring the potential negative effects of climate change for many species.
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>> uncommonboa.com

Global warming would expand the 'liveable' areas for Burms not
decrease them, it would also weaken many of the indigineous
animals makng them more vulnerable.

Just yesterday I think 2 burms were caught in people's yards in
S. FL. Based on the size of the Burms getting caught it's
pretty obvious that they can weather Florida's feeble winters.
Remember they like to be in water, Florida is full of canals,
rivers, swamps and lakes. Water stays warmer when temps drop.

I didn't know that they had limited the proposal to Rocks, rets
& burms. I think this is reasonable. Considering the types of
incidents that are disturbingly become common place with those
pythons, they will end up otherwise ruining it for all of us.
They should be required to have a license IMHO to keep those 3
species.

I'm not from Florida, and have no first hand knowledge, but it is my understanding from what I've read in these forums that microchipping and registration is a Florida (where the problem is) state law for the "big five". Which always brings us back to the same question, "Why are we considering a national response to a local issue?" The state of Florida is dealing with the probelm as they see fit. Why restrict the freedoms for the reamining 99% plus of the country when the problem is isolated to less than 1% of the country's land mass?
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uncommonboa.com

I agree in principle with what you're saying.

If you think of it in more general terms though, I can't think
of any other dangerous wild animal that people can buy and
keep as pets without being forced to get a license.
Especially when you take into account that they can be bought
for less than $100 and are so easy to buy.

I'm just afraid that what happened with that poor little girl
will happen again and then boas will get lumped in with Burms,
Rocks & Rets. The problem there was pure negligence, it had
nothing to do with released burms. It could happen in any
state. The same goes with gators & caimans. I can't believe
it is really that easy to get those.

>>I agree in principle with what you're saying.
>>
>>If you think of it in more general terms though, I can't think
>>of any other dangerous wild animal that people can buy and
>>keep as pets without being forced to get a license.
>>Especially when you take into account that they can be bought
>>for less than $100 and are so easy to buy.

I can think of at least one - a dog. Dogs cause SEVERAL DOZEN DEATHS PER YEAR and tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of emergency room visits per year. By contrast, only 2 or 3 innocent bystanders (I don't count owners, they know the risk) over the past 29 YEARS have been killed by large constrictors. And I don't think even one of those was done by a python that escaped outside the house. While any death of a child is tragic, we can't pass laws to prevent every possible freak accident from happening. I would even guess pet rodents cause many more deaths than pythons. I consider bears and large cats to be dangerous. I consider large constrictors to be formidable animals, but certainly not dangerous to innocent bystander humans.

>>
>>I'm just afraid that what happened with that poor little girl
>>will happen again and then boas will get lumped in with Burms,
>>Rocks & Rets. The problem there was pure negligence, it had
>>nothing to do with released burms. It could happen in any
>>state. The same goes with gators & caimans. I can't believe
>>it is really that easy to get those.

The case with the 2 year old girl is suspicious, imo. My personal opinion is that the guy murdered the girl. But assuming that it was an accident, why do you think licensing would even prevent this once-every-10-years accident? Florida
REQUIRES licensing for Burms already, the guy didn't have one.
Irresponsible owners will get their pythons, they won't follow the regulations.

Thanks,
Ed

"The case with the 2 year old girl is suspicious, imo. My personal opinion is that the guy murdered the girl. But assuming that it was an accident, why do you think licensing would even prevent this once-every-10-years accident? Florida
REQUIRES licensing for Burms already, the guy didn't have one.
Irresponsible owners will get their pythons, they won't follow the regulations."

I actually share your suspicion in this case. I don't think she was murdered. I think that prehaps...... When the snake got loose.... "the first time". He may have bitten the girl. Then, they "maybe" they decided to lock up the snake extra secure..... After all, why would he feel the need to "bag it" and then put it in it's aquarium if nothing had happened. They say the snake had escaped before.... Why was this time..."DIFFERENT????

Maybe then they decide to let the child sleep in their bed. Then.... Well, she died from Asphyxiation. Basically, she was smothered. What if, her mother's rather large boyfriend, "accidently" rolled over on her during the night and she was "smothered"???? If she was attacked by the snake the night before.... She snake would be a prefect patsy for this "accident". BTW why would they blame the snake, you might ask....????? Because "maybe" she already had bite marks on her. Also they had already had some "questionable" activity and DHS was involved the month prior.

Yeah, it's a far fetched theory, but...... What if that's what "really" happened?????

The injuries on that Burmese didn't look..... Like they were done in desperation. It looks like a clean/precise/even cut. If a person was desperate, there "should" have been stab wounds all over the snake. If it had actually killed that child, do you really think "the parents" would have allowed that snake to live???

To me, it looks like the snake "most likely" didn't do it. I'm still willing to admit that it could have happened the way they said....

I'd just like to see them take a lie detector test to see how that turns out.

I thought it was EXTREMELY suspicious too. I said so on here
after seeing a video of the relatively small burm being taken
out of the house.

You really can't compare how dangerous a dog or horse is
compared to a 20 foot burm weighing over 200 pounds, that's
what I was referring to when I said that it seems that everyone
has a bias.

Dogs are domesticated animals not wild animals. Horses are as
well.

Now that's where I get lost in the logic. How is it better to get killed by a domesticated animal than a wild one? Domestictaed animals kill hundreds of times more people than wild ones....so applying the "public safety at all costs rule", shouldn't there be a ban on domesticated animals??

Of course that's not reasonable, right? The bottom line is that people will die by freak accidents, and no amount of legislation will prevent that. But why does this knee jerk reaction to ban large constrictors somehow seem reasonable to people, but applying the same logic to the other animals that actually cause of the greatest number of human injuries, maulings and deaths seems outrageous?

Last week in Kentucky, a pet dog drug a newborn baby out of the house, into the woods and mauled the crap out of it. The father chased the dog down and retreived the baby (it was still alive). I'm not sure how the infant is doing now or what happened to the dog, mainly becuase it got little press. It'd still be headline news if a python did that! How do we get equal treatment/consideration, i.e. treated fairly in the press? I think that's where we are missing the boat. We spend most of our collective energy on the defensive, protecting ourselves and not enough time on the offensive educating people about the value of this group of animals.

I started volunteering at the Cincinnati Zoo earlier this year doing something called "animal encounters" with snakes. Basically, I walk around the zoo with snakes and allow people that choose to have personal interactions with the animals do so. Very few pass oon the opportunity. It a zoo-wide program, other volunteers carry around various birds, small mamals, and other appropriate sized creatures, even some cool bugs. It's very popular for zoo goers and I keep thinking "maybe I am creating/promoting, if not a love for the group of animals, at least an appreciation or tolerance for them". Judging from the feedback I get from visitors, its seem that way.

I know others do school, scout, organizational demos and shows, and those are great opportunities to put a positive face on the animals and the hobby. We should try harder to get more (some)positive press and win over more public opinion. Beyond the legal aspects, we have a major (tremendous!) amount of PR work to do if we want to stop being such an easy target for the press and rouge legislators.

Sorry to ramble, I'm just tyring to get beyond the immediate issue and think about what we can do to improve our condition into the future.

Mark
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uncommonboa.com

Mark,

I don't think you are rambling at all, I think you are spot on with your assessment. What we label a pet (ie, "domesticated" or "wild" is irrelevant, imo. If one of my kids were mauled/killed by a dog, and someone suggested that was somehow "better" than being attacked/killed by a "wild" pet snake (which statistically will never happen), well, I don't think that person would be pleased with my reaction. Given that the former happens orders of magnitude more often, I'd be even more upset. How does the word "domesticated" make it okay for dozens to be killed and thousands to be injured every year? Makes no sense to me.

I absolutely agree we reptile hobbyists are at least partially to blame for the mess we are in now. I believe every snake/reptile owner (with minimal people skills) should take an hour or two every six months to (responsibly, of course) do a couple educational presentations per year. In my experience, elementary schools are surprisingly receptive to this type of thing. I've done several at my kids' schools, and it's always fun. The vast majority of kids enjoy it and ask a lot of questions. Heck, I even invite my neighbors to learn about my snakes, and even my snake-phobic neighbor across the street has come around after learning the facts. I doubt we can educate everyone or even stop this landslide of bs legislation, but imo there is no downside in trying to educate people. Kudos to you for volunteering at the zoo!

I created a website a few months ago to try to encourage people to do presentations. I committed to donating $10 to the first 20 people who do their first presentation and send me pics (which I would post on the site.) The $10 would actually go to the reptile rescue organizaton of the presenter's choice. Sadly, I got little response from anyone who wasn't already doing presentations. Anyway, if anyone is interested, send me a PM.

Thanks,
Ed

Don't get me wrong I'm a snake lover, but statistically you are
looking at that all wrong.

You would have to take into account how many people & how many
times in a day those people interact with dogs and/or horses and
how many times in a day do people interact with Burmese pythons
for that to really be a valid comparison. I'm not referring to
the pets owners, I'm referring to random interactions of people
who are not the pets' owners.

People do not interact with huge pythons or wild animals in the
same way that they do with dogs and horses. Just taking into
account the actual numbers of pet dogs and horses when factoring
in any 'accidents' would change your mind about bringing that
up in an arguement.

Thank you. My thoughts exactly. I don't live in Florida. There are no feral pythons in Los Angeles. The issue of feral pythons is not mine. There are smart people in Florida I am sure. Let them have a crack at it first.
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Mark

I agree with the license ting but how do you regulate the idiots that get the license?

For the most part the only people that actually get the permit are the very people that keep them responsibly in the first place....the ones who don't follow the law and provide improper housing are the one that worry me.

We need to keep these types of animals out of the hands of the bad apples.....how can this be done?
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

i have to agree with joel. just like anyone who try's to purchase a venemous snake they need the proper licensing to do so.. i think that this will be the answer.
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All about the U!!!!

Where are all of these incidents involving retics burms and rocks? There have been 2 incidents, in the past year. (*one of which is incredibly suspect). Before that? 3 in 15 years!!! Do you realize how disproportionate that is to: Dogs, Bee Stings, Spiders, Deer, horses??

Jordan

http://www.dogexpert.com/FatalDogAttack/Fataldogattackhome.html

That's really sad.

Man's "best friend" has killed so many and still he's referred to a "MAN'S BEST FRIEND"...

He's looked at as a loyal protector of home and family. He's allowed to roam the house and prehaps even sleep at the end of the bed. He's takin on Family Vacations and fed scraps from the table. People don't run to the other side of the street if you take them out for a walk. They're even allowed in some Pet Stores. Yep, "dogs" are truely "LOYAL FRIENDS" worthy of your "TRUST"....... RIGHT UP TO THE TIME THEY ATTACK AND/OR KILL YOU!!!!!!!! Then you're just another statistic and your dog.......... It's just a dangerous animal.

And people think "SNAKES" are dangerous. At least, you know where you stand with a snake.

I'll stick with my Boas.

I was hoping I would never see those two be joined together in some idealogical brain fart....but there it is folks

Are we swallowing what they are trying to stuff down our throats...give me a brake...next is a study that will find that the Burms are a major contributor to the green house gases.

So far this thread has great points, most of which I agree with but I feel sadly that there will certainly be restrictions burdened on the responsible keeper...lets just hope the right ammendments are accepted.
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Joel Thomas

Don't tread on me!

Well it appears the "Bill"is working.
It has everyone looking at the animals and not the Everglades smooth over for the damage done by the Sugar Refineries.
Big Government requires BIG MONEY,researching all of this is costing the public BIG MONEY.

Yeah sure a few get to keep their animals,but the real issue is rolling right on past.Federally Funded"End Around",the Everglades will remain as they are today,but they will make you think all that money actually cleaned up the place.

Three Card Molly anyone ?