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From my understanding, the term "Quad" is used to refer to the four types of traits...namely, hypo extreme, hypo, anery, and albino.

So the "Quad" Pearl that Terry M. produced two years ago has all 4 traits showing ("visually speaking". Am I then to assume that if an extreme hypo and a snow produces a visually "wild type" looking hondo, that the hatchling is a "Het Quad" as opposed to just "triple het"?
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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

Quad het sounds like a fair term considering you should be able to produce any combination of the 4 traits with the "quad hets".

Some will definitely argue but I don't see how a snow can be visually showing that it is extreme hypo or hypo... that's like saying you can visually tell a hybino by the shade of white is has (and ignoring the orange colour).

Jon

There was in fact the first ever produced Quad (visually showing hypo extreme, hypo, anery, & albino). Produced back in 2007 by Terry Maheuron.

It is pictured below (I think Rusty took this pic)...and as you can see, when this Quad was still a hatchling, it looked like a snow BUT with greyish mettalic looking bands instead of the usual yellows you see in snow hatchlings. I think back then in 2007, everyone agreed, including the honduran gurus that this is a real Quad Pearl.

My original question still is, can we call a "wild type" looking hatchling produced by a hypo extreme and a snow to be "het quad" then?

Ray
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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

I have never seen a Snow out of the egg with yellow bands. I have seen most of them hatch with gray bands and just like the rest of them that snake you are refering to now looks like a Snow with yellow bands. It has yet to be proven out and the only known snake to possibly carry all four traits( If there are even four traits) is the OPAL produced by Don Shores last year. In a more recent post there has also been some discussion concerning the lack of black pigment with Opals and Hybinos. We have seen Hybinos from Extreme clutches and now even Opals that do not appear to look any different from any other Hybino or Snow. It stands to reason that if the black pigment is not present then you can't reduce it. The only issue I see here is that most of the Hybinos I have seen do appear to have lighter orange bands. Hmmmmm? As with most things, time will tell, as the work continues. As far as the Quad question goes. I used that term to describe Extreme Hypo to Snow Hets we produced a few years ago. We called them Quad Hets, but we always gave an explanation in regards to the Extreme trait. We have just about come to the conclusion that Extreme Hypos are just really nice Hypos as the name would suggest. So we now use terms like Extreme line, when discussing snakes from an Extreme clutch and I would now stick with Triple Het or Triple Homozygous and not Quad.
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Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC
www.thoroughbredexotics.com

Hey Joe, the source of my question was when I was looking at your website. (Great website by the way!!!). And under your "Hets" section, you do have one snake there that you labelled "Male Tangerine Quad Het from Extreme to Snow pairing". Yes, you did explain it as being from extreme line. That was where my question originally came from and that was why I was wondering if the term "Quad" (which people would assume four) would refer to 4 traits (hypo, albino, anery, and the hypo extreme).

But reading on through the rest of the threads from Randy to Shannon, it does not seem that we have a consensus of whether to use the term "quad" or not. I am with Shannon as far as streamlining these trade names so that it would be easier for everyone, including those that are just starting out with hondurans.

And then there is the term "opal". The one that Don Shores produced that is considered "Opal"...is that then the "triple homozygous"? I think that is the case but if not, now if the time to make clarifications.

Thanks guys.

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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

Hey Ray,

That Snow from Terry M. is only a Snow (from that awesome male) so all that is known about it (other than it's cool looking) is that it is at least Het. for the Extreme/Mega/SuperGray or whatever the hell you want to call it.

It very well could be a Triple Homo Hondo, with "Mega" blood...I'm sure it will be all figured out at some point in the next few years.

That is after all one of the exciting things about working with these awesome snakes...still trying to figure it all out.

Exciting stuff will come forsure!

-Rusty

Thanks for clarifying that. Did you end up with that snow?

.

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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

Again Rusty it has not been proven to be a recessive trait in itself so to call it het for extreme or what ever is not appropiate at this point.

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Randy Whittington

Yeah...I understand what you're saying Randy...the "extreme" look is not all figured out yet...agreed.

But if you have offspring from a certain genotype...all of the offspring carry that trait...right?

What maybe going on is some sort of phonotypical variation within the "hypo" gene? Selective breeding (which is what most of us do) could in time make the "extreme" look reproducible within that line.

I personally hope there are more unfound genes out there...it would be sad to only have three (or even four).

See ya,
Rusty

Link

I don't want to stir anything up but I have to say I don't think it's appropiate to officially call a hondo het for extreme because it's not known to be a definate recessive trait.
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Randy Whittington

I will agree with Randy on this one all the way.The extrem trait is very re-producable but isn't simple recessive so in my book there is no such thing as quad anything.Even the snake that Don produced is just a pearl (triple homo) that is also showing or expressing the extreme trait.
Not taking anything away from Don by saying "just a pearl" cause thats a hard snake to produce at this stage in the game and the fact that it is showing yet another tarit makes it extra special.
It would be the same as if you bred a couple hypo's or ghosts togther and produce sa striped or very aberrant pearl in the clutch.It would be just that, a striped pearl or whatever.It wouldn't be a quad anything.

As of now there is still just the three simple recessive traits we know of for sure.

And the extreme vs. Terry M or Alloway or whatever is a mystery also.They look very similiar but are different for sure.They me even be just a variation of one another and only time will tell.

Last year I bred what I thought was a mega ( Alloway's line of extreme???) to a Falcon extreme and out of 5 babies only one was even a hypo.So, My male tri-colored ( you know the snake Ray) isn't a hypo at all or is a different gene all together.He is in fact het for hypo as there was one hypo in the clutch and I would say its a middle of the road extreme.

Anyway, there is much to learn still with all these hondo morphs and you can call anything you want anything but the more we streamilne these trade names the better we will be down the raod.

L8r Shannon

If you are talking about the tricolor hypo extreme...how can I forget that? Ever since you hatched it, it is one of my favorites if not the favorite honduran. And now that it is a breeder, please keep me posted on the offsprings that it will produce.

What females (and their genotypes and phenotypes) did you breed that tricolor extreme with?

And also, can you post latest pics of that hondo?

Thanks Shannon.

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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

Hey Ray,
for the record I didn't produce this animal.Jeff Alloway did a few years ago out of a triple het male bred to a hypo poss het amel female.I am not sure what it is actually but ask Joe.He tends to know more about all these honduran morphs than all of us combined.
And I guess its called a opal now.Shoot, call it a pearl,opal,ivory,ruby whatever I really don't care.Several years ago we all got together on here with Terry Dunham ( remember him?LOL....) and we all decided on the trade name for when a triple homo animal would be produced.Even Don agreed back then.Don has told me that the reason he calls his a opal is because it showing the extreme trait.But like I said,I am really not sure about anything you run it by Joe first.

E-mail me direct if you would like to know more about the progress on the alloway (non-mystery line LOL...) cause I am not going to post anything this year on here.

L8r

Shannon

Who is going to Daytona this year? We have enjoyed talking with folks like Terry Dunham, Mike Falcon, Kevin Hanley, Don Shores, Randy Whittington, Marc Bailey, John Lambert, Jeff Alloway, Norm Damm,Rusty Green, Scott Sweeney, Rodney J, Adam Willich and so on. We are looking forward to seeing and taking to all that are interested in Hondurans.
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Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC
www.thoroughbredexotics.com

I think most would agree that if you are the first to produce a snake, then you get to name it. Don produced the first known Triple Homozygous out of Hypos and he has named it the "OPAL".

Also, we bred one of those Dunham/Alloway/TM snakes this year to an Extreme Hypo and we got all Hypos and most of them appear Extreme. As I already stated time will tell and the work continues, but I don't think there are to many mysteries left at this point.
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Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC
www.thoroughbredexotics.com

I would not think that stating a fact would be considered stir things up.

In the past, some people named animals without proving them out or giving anything that resembled a plausible explanation for a particular animal or group of animals. It could be possible that an "extreme honduran" is just the most hypomelanistic expression in a honduran and is not actually a separate gene.

Scott Sweeney
www.sweeneysserpents.com

I'll just throw in my two cents but I think there may be another gene. When you get a normal looking honduran from Alaways mystery male and the snake litterally goes from a normal black, white and red animal and 3 years later it looks like a hypo with a black head I think there is something else working.

Don, do you have any pics of that one as a baby. I have seen the adult, as you know, but I would really like to see a baby pic of that one. I think I told you we had an Anery that over time almost looked like a Ghost because of a loss of pigment, but she was an Anery Het Hypo. It will be interesting to see what that one produces.
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Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC
www.thoroughbredexotics.com

I really didn't get any since just about no one would take a picture of a normal honduran. I did pay only $25 for her along with others so I think if we would have known she was different Jeff wouldn't have sold her for that. She still has pattern in her shed if that matters. Don

No, the no pattern on a Hypo's shed thing is a myth. This pic is of a Hypo's shed and it clearly shows a pattern.

See you in few weeks!

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Thanks!

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC
www.thoroughbredexotics.com

Okay then I guess if one honduran looks like a hypo then it is since there is no other way to prove it. Some have melanin in the shed and most don't so in turn you have different degrees of hypo. The problem to me is how would you know it was a hypo if some have melanin and some don't. This could possibly get us in trouble. I hope someone can explain the hypo gene.