Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I think they're pretty cool.

Before you ask, they're thayeri and not hybrids.

-----
Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

Awesome Chris. I love them both. I have some similar spotted that would pair up very nicely with the first one:

-----
God Bless Evolution.

Try again for the other:

-----
God Bless Evolution.

Awful, nice the both of you'se!
-----
Todd Hughes

>>I think they're pretty cool.
>>
>>Before you ask, they're thayeri and not hybrids.
>>

Chris....
I sure like them both...
I also would like to see what parents produced these aberrant offpsring....

If they are pure thayeri...You are the first in the world to produce such.....What line are they from?

Cool looking snakes BTW....Awesome looking in fact...
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

There is no "line" per se. They are mine.

I bred my first thayeri in '92 and I have intentionally bred for color every since. The original lineages are classic but I have not maintained them.

This same pair has made typical white/yellow thayeri with an occasional abberrant here and there.

Luck o' the draw.

-----
Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

Chris...
I wonder why people like Tim Gebhart, Dan Vermilya and others have not produced any Thayeri looking like that....
They have been line breeding for color well before 1992...
I line bred thayeri from 96 til 2006 and never got those results...

Are you saying that these came from 'classic' looking thayeri that you started breeding in 1992?

To me they are awesome animals, but it sure looks like some Striped Ruthveni blood in the mix somewhere (Especially in that second one pictured)....Maybe before you got any of the parental stock...but in my educated opinion it has Ruthveni blood in it...

Regardless....They are awesome looking snakes....I would be ecstatic if they hatched out over here....But then I would question where my breeding stock got these traits....

Regards,
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

These snakes are "pure" thayeri (as pure as any of them are).

I am definitely saying that these snakes come from linebred thayeri from Bob Applegate, Gary Sipperley, Lloyd Lemke and Tim Gebhard lines.

There is no ruthvens in them at all. I can see what you see, as well; however, it is simply the split saddle twisted over sideways.

Breeding ruthvens into thayeri doesn't magically produce stripes.

I don't think you are insinuating anything, at least I hope not.

-----
Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

>>These snakes are "pure" thayeri (as pure as any of them are).
>>I am definitely saying that these snakes come from linebred thayeri from Bob Applegate, Gary Sipperley, Lloyd Lemke and Tim Gebhard lines.

Well you mentioned all but a few of the names we thayeri enthusiast work with and like to hear, but I still wonder why folks like Tim Gebhart, Bob Applegate and Dan Vermilya didn't ever produce such abberant offspring....They have been line breeding for decades......

>>There is no ruthvens in them at all. I can see what you see, as well; however, it is simply the split saddle twisted over sideways.

That you know of....Did you produce the parents? Grandparents? If not, who did? Do you know?

>>Breeding ruthvens into thayeri doesn't magically produce stripes.

I know that breeding ruthvens into thayeri doesn't magically produce stripes....but breeding striped ruthvens into thayeri for 2 generations would....I am certainly not insinuating that you did this Chris....Maybe someone before you did????

>>I don't think you are insinuating anything, at least I hope not.

Chris I know that you work with hybrid mexicana....And I know you a dead set on keeping them separate from you "pure" lines.
I am not insinuating you did any cross at all....But in my opinion it looks like someone did (prior to you).....I am referring mainly to the second one pictured....Are the two you pictured siblings?

I am also amazed at their beauty....They are unbelievably thayeri. Why hasn't anyone produced such offspring from their lines? Wait until someone else produces an amel thayeri....No one would believe them with all this Pastel king craze happening.....

Still they are AMAZING animals and I would hold on to both of them...breed them together if they are a pair.....see what else happens, but I could not honestly sell them 'pure' thayeri if I did not know their exact lineage....

What did their siblings look like Chris?

Why haven't more of these aberrant thayeri emerged? With the non existent influx of new thayeri into our hobby there should be some amels, anery and Hypo thayeri out there by now....

Regards,
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I dunno, John (if that IS your real name ....

By that reasoning, there should have been stripeds of every hobby animal out there. I mean, it IS curious that there isn't.

Tee hee hee.

It's exhausting defending oneself against all of the ridiculous insinuations from the so-called experts on this particular forum so I am done.

I hope you liked the pics.

Take care,

-----
Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

>>I dunno, John (if that IS your real name ....
>>
>>By that reasoning, there should have been stripeds of every hobby animal out there. I mean, it IS curious that there isn't.
>>
>>Tee hee hee.
>>
>>It's exhausting defending oneself against all of the ridiculous insinuations from the so-called experts on this particular forum so I am done.
>>
>>I hope you liked the pics.

TOO FUNNY Chris.....
You couldn't even ask the few questions I posted in my last reply....

Did you produce the parents? Grandparents? Who did?
What does the rest of the clutch look like?
Are they from the same clutch?
Are they a male / female pair?

I never insinuated you made any crosses....and it is just my opinion Chris that they look unlike thayeri....

I am no expert at all...Are you?

Have fun with that.
Laterz,
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

I guess we are making it into the realm of "Hobby Thayeri"...
Too bad....I was kind of liking this "bloodline" thing a little...

Now....let us see how hard it's going to be to defend our 'pure' lines with all the hybrids and crosses out there...

And Chris...
I agree with you on a single statement you made.....

"By that reasoning, there should have been stripeds of every hobby animal out there. I mean, it IS curious that there isn't."

Why haven't we seen all this yet?
Are yours the first? If so....More power to ya.

REGARDS,
& Yes this is my REAL name...
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

You know in 10 years of line breeding thayeri I never once produced anything that looked like that. I guess I never hit the jack pot but I'm pretty sure others will feel regardless of what anyone says, believes, or thinks that something other than LMT (lam mex thayeri) is influencing that look. I know it was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the pic.

We do see crazy patterns like that in corns so is an obsoleta influencing that pattern or is it temperature driven? We see it in florida kings so is it the intergrade mixes that are driving it or is it some other extrinsic factor involved in the developmental process? I don't claim to know but I do claim to be interested in the causation.

Russ Bates

Thanks for the post Russ.....

There are certainly variations in today's Thayeri that do not resemble the wild specimens of yesteryear....

I think these abnormal variations are not caused by temperature fluctuation but rather by simple line breeding....Desired allele alignment will cause such "different looks," but one must know their stock and not just throw around popular names at will when such thing eventually occurs.....

Another thing I see that is unusual with these two pictured is each one of these offspring are leonis with black heads.....Not totally unseen, but it only adds to the ruthveni influence in my honest but humble opinion....

Wait till a true amelanistic thayeri hatches.....What a fight that breeder will have to prove its lineage.....

Regards,
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

The two spotted animals I posted above come from fairly well documented provenence. Without turning this into a picturefest, the animal pictured below is the mother of one and the grandmother of the other. She was produced from normal looking parents. She is also owned by a reputable breeder who acquired the parents from another reputable breeder who was known for having stock he acquired from the guys who originally used to make the foraging trips into Mexico back in the 70's. I have seen this spotted pattern surface in other fairly well documented lines also.

Its not hard to see how the spotted pattern can arise as the next step from an aberrant such as this one:

This aberrancy (and a similar sibling sister) arose from normal looking parents from Dan V's white line. And being familiar with genetics in general, phenotypic aberrancies are not all that uncommon overall in any species due to slight mutations via errors in DNA code replication during transcription.

As for the second animal Chris pictured, developmental aberrancies are known to occur independent of genetic aberrancies. These type occur during deveopment of the embryo in the egg. Many factors during development can affect pigment distribution and deposition. Take for example the aberrant animal Mike B. has posted recently. Mike has been line breeding for quite some time and finally got that nice looking aberrant. I don't think anyone would imply that his lines weren't pure as Mike has been very careful with his provenence. Jonel got his "jaguar" animals from normal looking parents also and he has been careful with stock acquired mostly from Applegate and Baubel when he started.

I am willing to give Chris the benefit of the doubt. He has always been very straight forward about having a hybrid thayeri line along with his line he has kept pure thayeri. That openess should be worth something.

Bottom line is that unusual patterns CAN appear spontaneously in pure lines. It is healthy to be skeptical, but that has to be tempered with the realization that aberrancies do occur. What also needs to be considered is the reputation of the breeder. Knowing that aberrant can occur both genetically and developmentally can help explain how such animals are able to arise from "pure" stock even though there may appear to be other influences further back in the lineage.
-----
God Bless Evolution.

"I am willing to give Chris the benefit of the doubt. He has always been very straight forward about having a hybrid thayeri line along with his line he has kept pure thayeri. That openess should be worth something."

As a close friend of Chris I appreciate what you've said, and I can fully stand behind what he's claimed. The LAST thing Chris wants to do is tarnish his reputation by trying to "slide one by" on anybody. That's something that cant be fixed once you cross that line.
-----
Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

>>Bottom line is that unusual patterns CAN appear spontaneously in pure lines. It is healthy to be skeptical, but that has to be tempered with the realization that aberrancies do occur. What also needs to be considered is the reputation of the breeder. Knowing that aberrant can occur both genetically and developmentally can help explain how such animals are able to arise from "pure" stock even though there may appear to be other influences further back in the lineage.

I know this all too well.......Been saying this all along Craig.....But Chris cannot state what line they are.....he did not answer some basic questions....

And....I never questioned the spotted one as much as the one with the striping.....

Have you seen the history of the striped ruthveni?
I have.....I purchased some of the first ones he had to offer back in 2002 or 2003...I forget....
The first aberrants started looking like the one Chris pictured.
After line breeding those a fully striped animal emerged....Then the "Super Stripes" emerged after a striped x striped pairing.

If you did see all this you would certainly see that influence happening with Chris' thayeri......I never said he made the cross....It could be 'pure' but he has no lineage information....He just threw out some well known names....
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

John,

Just because Chris has not yet chosen to post pics of the parents and answer some of your questions doesn't necessarily mean those records don't exist. Like I said, it is healthy to be skeptical/cautious, but your implications are that the second animal almost certainly HAS to have striped Ruthveni lineage (or something else) somewhere. That simply isn't the case.

I cannot vouch for the provenence of these animals, nor am I chastizing you for raising the questions, I am simply saying you must temper your questions below the level of almost sounding accusatory.

I for one am certainly keeping as good a record of lineage as I can up to and including pictures of parents, etc. But you said yourself that you were gone for 4 yrs and when you came back provenence in thayeri seemed to be alot more influential than it had previously been. Maybe Chris hadn't kept as good a record on his older animals because at the time he didn't have to. I don't know if that is true or not, he may have good records he just hasn't divulged yet, but it was more of a "maybe" example for why some of your questions haven't been answered yet.

Chris has been a pretty stand up guy to my knowledge. I will allow him the courtesy of trusting him until he would prove himself otherwise.
-----
God Bless Evolution.

>>John,
>>
>>Just because Chris has not yet chosen to post pics of the parents and answer some of your questions doesn't necessarily mean those records don't exist. Like I said, it is healthy to be skeptical/cautious, but your implications are that the second animal almost certainly HAS to have striped Ruthveni lineage (or something else) somewhere. That simply isn't the case.
>>
>>I cannot vouch for the provenence of these animals, nor am I chastizing you for raising the questions, I am simply saying you must temper your questions below the level of almost sounding accusatory.
>>
>>I for one am certainly keeping as good a record of lineage as I can up to and including pictures of parents, etc. But you said yourself that you were gone for 4 yrs and when you came back provenence in thayeri seemed to be alot more influential than it had previously been. Maybe Chris hadn't kept as good a record on his older animals because at the time he didn't have to. I don't know if that is true or not, he may have good records he just hasn't divulged yet, but it was more of a "maybe" example for why some of your questions haven't been answered yet.
>>
>>Chris has been a pretty stand up guy to my knowledge. I will allow him the courtesy of trusting him until he would prove himself otherwise.

Okay Craig....
I agree....

These types of aberrancies are certainly possible....I know this...You know this...But why hasn't a striped, amel or hypomelanistic thayeri been produced?

Maybe Chris is the first to hatch a striped Thayeri...
And I know Chris is a stand up guy. I visit his site all the time and am glad there are folks out there that can breed hybrids and also keep their 'pure' lines 'pure'....

Like I stated previously....If those snakes hatched here I would be elated, but then I would question my bloodlines because a 'pure' striped thayeri has not been produced yet....

Regards,
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

..it apparently died acording to the article (in Vivarium magazine, I believe).

All I can tell you, John is my lineage is a mish mash of the aforementioned breeders. Now, I CAN tell you I have not added ANY thayeri to my collection since '94. I purchased one snake from Howard Sherman, raised it and sold it as it was not what I was looking for as an adult.

-----
Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

>>..it apparently died acording to the article (in Vivarium magazine, I believe).

You are correct Chris....I think once in this thread I typed when "when someone else produces an albino thayeri"....then I stopped....But yes I believe this amel thayeri passed due to being a non feeder...

>>All I can tell you, John is my lineage is a mish mash of the aforementioned breeders. Now, I CAN tell you I have not added ANY thayeri to my collection since '94. I purchased one snake from Howard Sherman, raised it and sold it as it was not what I was looking for as an adult.

Chris....what do the parents of the two you posted look like?
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

...I'll post most of the clutch when they shed.

-----
Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

.

-----
Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

And you produced these two Chris?

They are both REAL nice....The female looks a little 'different' but I guess it is from the line breeding....

Not chastizing about crosses anymore....They are what you say they are man....And they are all great looking.....

Thanks for the pictures Chris...
I look forward to seeing the clutch photos when they hatch....
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

They were born at my place and have bred for the last four years. Their parents were part of my original thayeri.

Here are some of their babies from last year:

-----
Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

For what its worth Chris those animals look to me like some kind of egg stress effected developement. On several occasions I've had really wacky stuff hatch out of less than perfect eggs.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

I was referring to the original atypical neonates.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

That is very possible. It's certainly the first thing I think whenever I see smeared pattern abnormalities.

I'm gonna play with it and see.
-----
Chris Jones
King of Kings Reptiles

http://www.kingofkingsreptiles.com/

"All the fancy names in the world will be of no help if you do not know the difference between chocolate pudding and pig poop." -Frank Retes

WOW!! That is one gorgeous yellow!! Just WOWOWOWOW!!!!!
-----
Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

That is a smoking yellow thayeri!

If I remember correctly, the pure albino thayeri was eaten by his proposed mate.
-----
Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

>>That is a smoking yellow thayeri!
>>
>>If I remember correctly, the pure albino thayeri was eaten by his proposed mate.
>>-----
>>Please don't talk about snake prices when my wife is around!!

We are speaking of the one produced in Austin, TX years ago, correct?

I never heard that fact about it....
I thought it never made it into adulthood....

I think Joe Forks knows the whole story....
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

That was my understanding also. He grew it up, put it in for breeding and found out it got eaten. Such a bummer.
-----
God Bless Evolution.

For the record

I've met Chris at a show in Richmond and I agree he is a nice guy and I'm not doubting what he's saying about his collection. I was sharing my limited experiences with breeding thayeri and what I felt was my observation (or at least first impression without reading any other posts).

I'm about to finish up a Developmental Biology course next week and I tell you I've learned more this semester about extrinsic/intrinsic factors that "can" influence the outcome of the zygote as it goes through mitosis and turns into an embryo. I'm not at all surprised to see anomolies like this.

Russ

Russ,

Cool beans on taking that course. I am a hopeless science geek...guess thats what makes it so fun to teach for me. Developmental biology and embryology are definitely cool areas. They help us to better understand genetics and heredity also.
-----
God Bless Evolution.

Yeah it's very interesting. Don't know if you know this about me but I'm 42, been in the Navy 22 years and still going, and I've been slowly working at a BS w/ major in Biology. I've got 4 classes left and although I am looking forward to completing the degree, I do feel like I'll miss the research piece when it's all said and done. I guess there is always continuing education right! I've learned so much from my snake collection and I've been able to carry over that knowledge into the classroom to share with other students. Its been pretty cool thus far.

Russ

Russ,

Love the fact that youre going back to get your degree (or add to it). Setting a great example that youre never too old to learn. Congrats on your accomplishment so far and good luck in your final four courses. You should be very proud of what youre doing.

Craig
-----
God Bless Evolution.

White sided black rat snakes exist, no need to argue that of course...
White sided eastern milk snakes exist. The phenotypical result is the same, no?
So, does this by default imply that Ted Thompsons milks have licorice black rats in their history? Of course not. These kinda of things really do happen.
Chris will tell you the way he derives his own line is to breed a pair of adults, pick out the 2 nicest babies, and then sell the rest of the clutch AND the adults as well. Then rinse and repeat.
-----
Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

>>White sided black rat snakes exist, no need to argue that of course...
>>White sided eastern milk snakes exist. The phenotypical result is the same, no?
>>So, does this by default imply that Ted Thompsons milks have licorice black rats in their history? Of course not. These kinda of things really do happen.
>>Chris will tell you the way he derives his own line is to breed a pair of adults, pick out the 2 nicest babies, and then sell the rest of the clutch AND the adults as well. Then rinse and repeat.

I'm not implying that this kinda of thing never happens....I've seen a ton of 'new' things over the last 18 years of doing this....Frankly I am surprised that more of this hasn't surfaced with all the line breeding.....

If this occurs in my breeding projects I would be elated to see such things emerge, but I would be able to tell everyone a particular bloodline they are from.....

I know that Chris did not cross anything to produce these, but I think someone else did prior to him pairing the parents of these two.

That is why I asked to see pics of the parents....grandparents?
Are the two siblings?
Are they male and female?

Bottom line....THEY ARE GORGEOUS snakes....And I would have kept a little better records if I were in Chris' shoes.
-----
John Lassiter

"Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part....."

Stop heating those eggs to the melting point!!! Wow, super animals!
-----
Todd Hughes

WOW!!! Those are awesome!! Nice job!!!!
-----
Aubrey Ross

©
www.SlipstreamSerpents.com

Super cool dude! I love 'em!
-----
Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"