Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, it's been about 3-4 yrs since I have back. So here I am and just stopping by to get your opinions on my new enclosure.

OK, I got myself a HUGE tank and I almost gave up doing it by myself. I don't think a person truly understands how heavy a tank is that is that large. The glass is thick, appx 6-7ft long, etc. Its massive. I was going to turn it into a saltwater reef system and grab all my old equipment out of storage and buy a couple killer small sharks but that's a PAIN, esp being so large.

Anyhow, I finally got it out of the truck, got it in the house with the stand, and started to load it up for my new monitor lizard. I have had many many before and decided to get another.

I also wanted a change. So instead of the smaller tank, I go big. You'll see what he had before and after. Before he had a 60gallon which is plenty for him but why not go BIG.

I set up the big one, was a PAIN IN THE REAR and decided to divide it and have one side a fully functional aquarium and have him loose on the rest of his kingdom. For him to drink he must climb over and swim/drink in the filtered fish pool. Its pretty slick if you ask me.

The large pool with warmer temps of the ambient air on the inside keep the humdity even. It also keeps me from having to heat the pool for the tropical fish. If he nabs a fish, its nature and I'll let it take its course and go naturally buy some new ones to replace. So its humidity is nice, not too sticky but level. It is heated by an under tank heat pad and an infrared bulb so it doesn't affect its light night cycles, and there is a day timer that is set for UV flourescent bulbs for him to be active during correct hours and while the bulbs are there he can get some good ol' Vitamin D rays. I guess it's still speculation but bought them anyway. Hell, I live in San Diego, I can always get it some nice sun rays year round.

Have questions: Feel free to ask....

PICS...

The water feature is a bacterial infection waiting to happen. The filter is way to small and the gravel is just another place to harbor the growth of infectious bacteria.I love the idea of doing large water features in huge cages but its just to difficult in any size aquarium to do it right. The water volume has to be substantial and at the same time you have to be able to change a good amount of the water out at least every other day. Not trying to burst your bubble just trying to help. Thanks Ian

ok first I did the calculations. For the height and width of the tank with the height of the divider comes out to appx 7.68 gallons. The filter you speak of which is too small, filters 160 gallons per hour and made for a 30 gal aquarium.

Nxt, I never knew in the wild the water is crystal clear and filtered ESP when animals like hippos, etc in Africa deficate HUGE amounts. Monitors are also known for eating carrion, basically rotted dead animals and do fine. Now I'm not saying one should do this with their pets but it's not as sensitive as you believe.

As for the gravel, that can be gravel vaccumed. Not a big deal. Plus bottom feeders and snails assist in waste Mgt. Also, I like to note I have 20 yrs experience with saltwater systems including extremely difficult reef setups. A small fresh water pool with some micro fish not, packed together like a walmart minnow tank, isn't going to collapse the tank like adding a few fish to a saltie tank would do. In my opinion it's fine. I would like to hear more opinions on the matter though.

Ok nevermind what do I know anyway.

Awesome looking tank, my only concern would be the monitor deficating in that water as they seem to do. I know you have a filter system but it may find itself overloaded? Just one of those things you will have to maintain.Hats off for doing it yourself. I see people dumping thousands of dollars on these custom cages which are nice but if you are a handy person you can build something nice and funtional for a fraction of the cost.
Robert

Haha, yea if he defecates then it'll be another story. In fact I'd prefer it. But unfortunately he let's go on the coconut bark. As an adult that'll be foul. I've always had good luck with all of them being water bound but he may be a wrench in the routine.

As for the enclosure, I'll build another once this becomes too small. I sold my last huge one when I moved so it'll be another weekend of building once the time comes.

To be quite honest you have a beautiful setup that does very little to address the needs of an albig. It could use better hides at the very least and, ideally you would ditch the water and fill the cage with a good 12" of soil for it to burrow in.
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Steve

Throw some ideas my way for hides and soil. I was told don't use soil bc of parasites. Another guy says yes as there is no insect free soil in the wild.

Keep in mind too, the thing is less than a foot long including tail. Soi I think it's go tons of hiding spots. Then again i've been told not to put a vast among of hides. Some yes but they said it'll keep it wild just like feeding live feeders. If they see you moving about in hour home, they tame down better fro. What I understand.

Ok, just spoke to some of the big reptile shops nearby and they say that, yes, soil can be used but placing over 1ft of soil for a 1 ft lizard and placing more hides than I already have as 1/4 of the entire area is fake palnts etc is sort of taking it a little over the top. For breeding or some superior setup possibly, but for a pet, solo, etc is more than fine, right? That's what everyone is tellin me after reading some msg's and seeing pics. I'm about to pick up some cypress mulch to make 6 in but for a lizard 8 in long is WAY sufficient I assume.

You're also keeping a lizard that's going to grow quite large quite quickly if you take good care of it. Might as well devote that water feature into more space for the monitor to roam around in. Like a previous poster mentioned, the albigs don't really do a whole lot in the water. You're better off providing a deep layer of soil to burrow in, like what it would be seeking out in the wild.

It's not so much parasites to be worried about in the soil, it's the fertilizers and pesticides and other goodies intended to help plants grow that's the problem. Home Depot has a nice mix for less than 20 bucks that I've been using, the only extra thing added is a little bit of lime, according to the package, to balance the pH. My monitor loves it, buries himself right down in it all the way to the bottom.

I'd swap the red light for a white light. The most recommended light I've seen on here is a 50 watt halogen bulb.

San Diego has some good herp shops within easy driving distance. You should visit them, I've heard a couple of the North County stores just got in a new animal order just filled with goodies...

Good luck!
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

I'm all too aware my friend of the vast amount of access to herp knowledge around these parts.

But I fixed it up and going to get some opinions. As for the water, no biggie for now. Once he gets to that level, it'll take appx 25 min to complete, so, not really pressured. I'll get to it when I get a chance and he could use the extra space.

thanks

a few thoughts if I may,
I would create a clear rock spot (maybe a slab) for a feeding area in there. This would serve a few purposes in that tank.

Also, while the filtered water tank is a great idea, eventually it may turn into a problem. I would ditch the gravel, drill a hole in the tank bottom, install a pvc drain valve with a bucket underneath and drain the water every day or so.

- I understand your point about "natural" water quality but you must understand that is an entire ecosystem on a huge scale with organisms and micro organisms specific to digest what is locally put into said system. I tracked down a monitor drinking from a water source and let me tell you, the water looked good enough for me to drink (I was tempted, it was hot)
also, don't under-estimate the capacity of your albig to clog up that filter nor its capacity to detect a suitable clean water source.

Hope things go well with your new albig. Thanks for sharing.

I hope your al
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WWW.LIZARDRC.COM

Ok, I made adjustments and tell me what you think? I may be stubburn as they come but I do listen. Ok, I got some cypress and loaded the darn tank up. The highest spot is 18in of mulch. On that level i placed the old basking spot bark under the soil and he can go in and loosen up.

The water for now is still there but i'll get to it later. Shouldn't take long to do, maybe 20min or so.

So tell me what I should adjust and we'll work on that.

Thanks.

Only suggestions I have are still to switch to the halogen light for daytime use, and also to check out the section ProExotics has on Retes stacks.
http://www.proexotics.com/FAQ2.html#23
Since you seem to be a handy guy you might be able to make something a little more naturalistic looking to go into your cage, but keep in mind that a good stack has relatively thin sheets of board.

And a last thing, are you sure the baby monitor's finding the water? In his pictures he looked a little wrinkley, and while you've said that in the past you had albigs that liked to swim, since this guy is the exception to that rule in your case...maybe he's not finding the water at all?
Just a thought, if you've seen him drinking then nevermind.
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

If you've ever been digging in the ground or on a beach, you should def. know what a good soil mix/hold is. The mulch will cause problems once its dry. It causes a ton of splinters and such that can possibly get into its eyes. Try a sandy soil mix about atleast 6 inches plus. Your lizard can do perfectly fine in a cage that didnt let out a lot of heat and humidity. Keeping things constant without daily revamps is what you want to achieve. If the soil holds well enough with just the right amount of moisture added, the burrows that your monitor makes will be its cool and humid retreat.

I do not know what your conditions are in the cage. You want ambients that range from mid 90's on down to the mid 70's and basking temps of 120 . Your humidity will vary in different areas of the cage. less the 50 around the basking site,50to 70 in and around the cage, and nearly 100% humidity in the burrows made in the soil. If you can achieve this correctly, you will notice the monitor not look so shabby. If need be, it will go into the soil and revamp itself.
Being able to burrow correctly is key to these types of monitors.

I currently keep a mangrove type of monitor that likes it pretty moist all the way through the soil. With your type of monitor, once the cage settles, moisture will pulled down to the bottom and the surface will dry because its exposed to heat. Creating a dry medium on top of the surface would be more ideal then how I have my tropical setup.

"Only suggestions I have are still to switch to the halogen light for daytime use, and also to check out the section ProExotics has on Retes stacks."

Not now but its a good idea for when i build another enclosure. I simply wont have enough room with all the soil, etc. I think going any larger at this point isnt necessary. I do like that stack deal though. I could rig something like that fairly easy.

"And a last thing, are you sure the baby monitor's finding the water.....he's not finding the water at all?
Just a thought, if you've seen him drinking then nevermind."

Well, I sort of figured that it would be virtually impossible to not find it. No, I have never seen him drink. Hell, I never see him at all. All these hiding spots, etc you never see it. The second you enter the room its gone. Which brings up another debate. Some explain that by keeping your enclosure plain with, for example, news paper, bowl, bask spot, one hide would make for a calmer lizard around people. By adding all of the "nature" style settings it keeps it wild.

But anyways, I had a smaller bowl and every day I come back the bowl is filled with substrate. I don't make it home for very long everyday. Maybe 2hrs ( or much less) and I am gone. I changed bowls, same thing. I tried a variety and the only thing that has worked 100% is this pool. if I get any taller bowl I'm afraid he wont find it or wont think to climb so high and over. Now that you mentioned it I'll keep a closer eye and place the small bowl back in. I do soak him every other day so he may be drinking then. Also, possibly due to parasites. Ive treated my monitors before and turned out some were filled. So I'll check and get to the bottom of it today.

Thanks.

You've gotten a monitor expecting for it be nice and tamed or atleast you want to make it that way? So what happends if this animal never comes around in the future the way you want it? They grow very quickly and in a year you're expecting to have a 3 to 4 ft beast.

The animal raised in those poor setups(bare) seem to be very low spirited and pretty much used to having a human grab and force them around. (look up the words tame and tamed in dictionary.com)

I really hope that your thinking of keeping monitors comes around so eventually you're not disapointed.
There are ways to get monitors to be tolerant of us. No force handling, correct conditions,time and patience. You're already creating a bad name for yourself, breaking the trust/bond by pulling it in and out of the cage to soak it all the time.

>.< You seem very foreign to how things work.

>>>>You've gotten a monitor expecting for it be nice and tamed or atleast you want to make it that way? So what happends if this animal never comes around in the future the way you want it? They grow very quickly and in a year you're expecting to have a 3 to 4 ft beast.>>>

Excuse me sir, I understand what type of an animal it is. Do not confront me assuming as if I were to expect a fluffy bunny rabbit behavior out of a reptile of any sort. I've had numerous monitors over the yrs. I have owned full grown niles, to which some on the site have seen personally. No, it wasn't "tame" in your words. ASll of the individuals I have spoke to have stated the opposite of what you state. Again, I'm not trying to start a debate over what or who's method is the right way. The way you train you dog will be different than mine or anyone else for that matter.

>>>>The animal raised in those poor setups(bare) seem to be very low spirited and pretty much used to having a human grab and force them around. (look up the words tame and tamed in dictionary.com) >>>>

Well, it depends on your view. You seem biased. What if that person likes that display of behavior? Some people who own pet lions keep them wild others try to curve the mean streak. Who's right and who's wrong? Hell, PETA people believe you shouldn't own a horse, lizards, etc. Are they wrong because they have their firm beliefs?

>>>>>>>I really hope that your thinking of keeping monitors comes around so eventually you're not disapointed.
There are ways to get monitors to be tolerant of us. No force handling, correct conditions,time and patience. You're already creating a bad name for yourself, breaking the trust/bond by pulling it in and out of the cage to soak it all the time.>>>>>>>

Soaking it all the time? Its a few min every 3-4 days. The animal was shedding and a nice little bath wouldn't hurt. Now, are the people who feed their large snakes/lizards, etc outside of the cage wrong bc the other group prefers the feeding in its own enclosure? If you create a food response of "every time I do..... this happens" with a large reptile? Some, hande it their ways, others Do not want their reptile rushing a hand as soon as the door opens thinking "food".... Who's right? Who's wrong. But forcing your opinions as fact and the "best" way isn't exactly helping.

This set up is actually better than majority out there and nothing seriously wrong. Who knows, maybe you use a 2 acre backyard for your 1ft lizard or maybe your one to gripe. I'm not sure, but I do know,that some people no matter what you do or say tend to do the latter.

Either way, I do appreciate your comments and criticisms, as I asked for them.

Now folks, keep'em coming.

The ways I practice keeping monitors really call for a natural type of setup. I really like to see the animals move and do things in it's cage, instead of trodding around the house and hiding.In all the large and adult monitors ive been able to work with would really just walk around to try and find a place to hide. To see a monitor just sit there in a bare cage is painful, knowing that they are impressive lizards, very capable of much more then being stuck bare cage(IMO).I ass/u/me that you think they are very impressive animals as well?
(main point of my responces)
You've gone out of your way to logg around a huge tank, create a basking spot, even create a watering area, why not go the extra foot to have great substrate. Full credit to you wanting to provide a great cage, but I can tell you from my experience that the mulch you're currently using will dry and become a poor substrate. Monitors, esp your species are great burrow makers.
For you to bring up the setups that I call poor, and then have nothing like those poor setups in your setup tells me you are on the route that means well.To compare the two with out knowing how things can really work, tells me you're not experienced enough or atleast hasn't soaked up enough info on monitor keeping. I can tell just by your setups that your practices havent gotten there yet. (Setups either kill, just keep alive or have animals thrive) So for your future comparisons on setups, you can choose the type setup you want.(at the end of the night, they are your animals)

btw, do you have the old photos of the large niles and such. I LOVE PHOTOS!

"Posted by: sulfurboy1o3 at Mon Aug 3 23:20:56 2009 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by sulfurboy1o3 ] Share Send a tweet to Twitter!

The ways I practice keeping monitors really call for a natural type of setup. I really like to see the animals move and do things in it's cage, instead of trodding around the house and hiding.In all the large and adult monitors ive been able to work with would really just walk around to try and find a place to hide. To see a monitor just sit there in a bare cage is painful, knowing that they are impressive lizards, very capable of much more then being stuck bare cage(IMO)

btw, do you have the old photos of the large niles and such. I LOVE PHOTOS! "

definitely agreed,
also, a photo is worth 1000 words of advice, sulfurboylo3, maybe you can share some photos of your natural setups with albigs.
I agree with your sentiments so more pics of proven setups can only benefit the new or learning varanid keepers.

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WWW.LIZARDRC.COM

Yes, I agree with you guys to some degree. A picture really is worth a 1000 words. What would be a better help, just like J3nny did was post pics or links to there asnd give an idea with her wording.

Maybe I didn't know enough but things have definately changed since a few yrs back. Before everyone seemed anti soil and was all about cypress. Now it seems that everyone must be swaying to the soil side again. Back then the big thing was "everything will impact the animal" and to be on the safe side saw a huge amount of people with just newspaper substrate. Can't hold parasites well, won't hurt it if injested, fairly sterile, and so on.

For both of
As for mine. I went to the store with soil in mind. But once there I was after bark due to one sole reason. The soil smells like a horrid mess. This was the organic stuff as I heard alot of discrepancies about this as well.

Some say it doesn't matter. Others say get organic soil, some say organic soil is too small and when it eats and mashes it around will collect huge amounts of soil and become impacted, others say the insect breeding ground is horrible and will infest your animal. So all of these horror stories in referance to soil is enough for me to say " hey, he may have this in the wild but its a problem and smells. " This is in my house. Like as in living areas. I can't have a stink-fest going on in there. Cypress smells sooo much better.

If you wish for me to have soil I'll change it up. j3nny stated "he may not be getting water, etc. so I react. Friday after work, I'm giving the tropical fish to my girlfirend, and leveling the tank with all new substrate. But you have to tell me EXACTLY what I need. "Soil" is not enough.

What brand (Home Depot/walmart preferred as its universal and we will be conversing on the same product.); and what mixture? 1/2 play sand to 1/2 soil?

I remember some time ago people stated regular soil from ones yard. But California is desert-like and will be a sandy soil.

Also, one last question for Sulfer, if you prefer to have everything natural, minimal contact, etc then how do you feed? I mean, if fed on a dish, it'll remove it and do the typical shaking around and get dirt and sand ALL over the food item esp if its a moist frozen/thawed item. How do you prevent or minimalize impaction......

The desert soil you speak of is actually really good stuff. Here in Colorado we have lots of clay and I had to look around to find a nice sandy soil. A sandy loam that drains well is the best. Having tried both store bought and natural soil the natural stuff is by far the best. It has microbes in it that keep it smelling much fresher and seems to work the best for the monitor once you find the right stuff. I have had bugs come in with the soil but, they are gone once whatever they were eating is gone. The idea of parasites coming in with stuff from outside seems to come loudest from people who are trying to sell you some thing that you can get outside for free.

Impaction is a non issue if your animal is properly hydrated and has access to the right temps. It sounds like you may have some hydration issues to address so keep that in mind. Overall a healthy monitor passes the soil just fine.

How to interact with your lizard has been best put by focus on leaving it alone until it is growing quickly and you have a good handle on everything else husbandry wise. By then it will have probably come around on its own. It will probably never really like to be held but, it will tolerate it (maybe) and animals that haven't been force handled to the point of submission are less stressed. Stressed animals live shorter lives.

Cheers,
Steve
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Steve

Thanks Steve!

Snakey, I currently use a diet of mice, shrimp, roaches and other random seafood bits. I have multiple basking areas(slate and cork flats) that i usually just lay the food on. I feed mostly f/t food items, with the occasional live mouse. Everything that is an insect or once f/t(shrimp/mice) have to all but cut up because this current monitor will not seek much interest in it(taste better?,idk).

I have photos of four setups that belong to four previous animals that i've been able to work with. I'll post the most current one and if you want, i'll post the others(once i figure out how to post more then one photo at a time on here)

The right type (its cheap stuff) is TOP soil or fill dirt. I currently do a ton of gardening to pay bills and we go through a ton of this stuff. Its soil with tiny sticks and such in it. It works great. I really like a soil/sand mix. 70% soil and the rest sand. We buy both in the truckload from rockeries and at lowes for 3 to 5 bucks for a 50 lb bag. It really cost me 100 dollars to fill up an 87 toyota pickup.

in burrow.

I finally figured it out.

This is a current cage that im about to scrap, because I'm future on a larger cage this weekend. I learned how to make fair cages that will hold conditions well for great periods of time, but with a shelf life of less then 1 year due to the humidity/heat factors. Wood and moisture=not good. Im currently trying to line the inside of my cage to protect it for a long time. In the photo of the entire cage, you can see the white liner that is on the bottom 6 inches. All that is pretty soil and sand with leaf litter.

I dont just keep my monitors in this fashion, since i learned how to use temps(give options and choices), and ways to keep things constant, i've applied this method to just about ALL my reptiles. Ihave pics of a mocquards rats and some dwarf geckos on this stuff too.

Sorry, i just read through your post agian. Im from California too(currently norcal). I tried using soil from the outside of my yard before. It was straight dirt and once i got it wet, it became slimy, even with the roughness of sand added to it.It held burrows fairly well but constricted my monitors skin(salvator) once they went to bask.
I used this as an example when i first replied, The beeach. If you've ever gone to dig tunnels and sand castles, you want the soil mix to hold very much so like that.You have structure in your cage with branches so having it colapse shouldnt be a problem. If you use this mix of soilxsand, clump a fist full up to the point were you form a ball and if it holds well then you're set.

ps. indicus(& many other indo species) types are known to be very much less forgiving for idiot mistakes then many african types.it's the reason why my cages look like jungle gym. & dirty monitors usually means happy monitors.

Nice, exactly what I was looking for my friend. So I could grab some free dirt off craigslist for free and maybe throw some soil to make it have a nice consistancy and not so much a mud, you know?

I'm going to pull the water out this weekend. I don't like it anymore due to the fact that he's freaked out a few times and with a full belly has a hard time finding the ramp and don't want the little guy to drown.

Plus I've noticed that he's really loving the digging and disappearing under the mulch. So I'll crank it up and give him real mulch.

Tell me, I went again and looked and want to know man in most of the guys' opinion on the "soil" versus "potting" soil. I see they have like 2 types of soil....

Enlighten me with this difference.

TOP soil. If you ever take a trip to a rockery..plenty of those places have sandy loam, a ton of redwood mulch,cypress mulch in plenty of grades, sand in all sorts. Fill dirt or top soil is the cheapest.

I tell folks to stray away from 'organic' stuff or potting soil because of the hormones in there to help plants grow. Fertilized dirt usually has little white balls in it, along with tiny orange balls. That is that miracle grow stuff. (i forget what they are made out of, sorry) Its just not good for your lizard if ingested.

Top soil is VERY cheap.

I keep my soil moist from top to bottom. I have a dry medium on the surface made of leaf litter.The leaves also act much like a cover over the soil to protect it from the light and heat. It pretty much just keeps the belly scales from ALWAYS being on moist soil. It's best to really check up on your soil moisture every so often.

For your desert/grassland type, you can use the same method, just let the cage settle with out spraying the cage. Just about all species of monitors will use a seriously humid burrow anyways.
I have desert geckos that i use a different method on to not have the surface be so moist. I mix up water and sand and soil and place it in. Then i grab dry sand and layer to top. This might be tricky to soak in now.. but you will know more when you play with this. Creating options is key and this is just another one of those factors. Giving a completly dry surface with humidity of about 60ish, but have moistened soil with burrows of 100%.

good luck

Sorry, haven't had internet in a few days!

I'd read about mixing in sand and vermiculite to help with the consistency of the dirt. I think I read that on ProExotic's site but I honestly don't remember where I saw it so I could be wrong. I know at home I mixed the dirt under the waterbowl with some vermiculite and the dirt under there stopped growing fuzz.

Just a thought there. I go hiking out here (SD county) and even when I lived out in a more rural area the dirt wasn't exactly what I'd want to use in my cage(s).
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"We call them dumb animals, and so they are, for they cannot tell us how they feel, but they do not suffer less because they have no words."
- Anna Sewell (1820-1878)

What do you think now?

Got my bricks like I used before for a basking spot, got 200lbs of good soil at 8-18in thick, and got rid of the fish.

So now, critique me again.....

Looking much better. Good luck raising the little guy up. It won't be long till it isn't so little anymore.

Cheers

Steve
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Steve

Not quite the same as a reef is it.