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How about a little controversy?

boaphile Aug 01, 2009 11:05 AM

How about a little controversy?

Not that I am attracted to it or anything. LOL I would like to make a few observations regarding the widely occurring aberrancies that are occurring in various bloodlines that involve Hypos. This I will do without naming those Bloodlines except the ones that I myself have originated so as not to give the impression that I am picking on anyone. Which I certainly am not.

First let me start by saying this. The first Jungle Boas came into the country from Sweden 14 or 15 years ago. It was more than ten years before we had a fairly good handle on the how, the when and why this mutation works. That is a fact. The other fact is we still don’t know exactly what’s going on with it. In my opinion the Jungle first and foremost, is fundamentally a form of Hypomelanistic. Evidence the clear quantum leap seen on the Jungle Paradigms and Jungle Caramels produced by Big Mike last year. Those babies were far more than just additionally aberrant or only more colorful. They clearly reached another level in lightness as far as melanin influence is concerned. The only exceptions to this look are the really wiggy Jungles that are produced. The vast majority of them tend to lean to the dark side but that may just be a function of additional pattern. Be that as it may, I digress. It is only in the last two or three years that we have realized that brightly colored offspring from Jungle breedings need not show any aberrancy to throw Jungle babies. So why do we assume that anything new that pops up must have a complete explanation within 15 minutes of first showing itself? This is silly. So here are my thoughts regarding some of the new mutations that have popped up.

There are a number of bloodlines that involve pattern abnormalities that are clearly genetic. I could name no fewer than six distinct bloodlines that include crazy aberrant offspring that clearly are genetic. Now, since we did not know how precisely how to identify a Jungle for more than ten years, (I would say we still do not know that entirely) I submit that the selection of exactly which offspring from some of these other breedings carry the gene(s) necessary to reproduce more of these is or involves some guess work. There are those who consider themselves smarter than most of us that immediately consider anything that produces aberrant babies of any type, except of course the Jungles, to be simply carrying polygenic genetic abnormalities. This I contend is normally a function of wanting to avoid giving credit to something that clearly deserves it. I believe it is possible that some of these are polygenic, but we just don’t know that answer. They may be just as likely to be dominant or co-dominant. We just don’t know. Several have shown second generation breedings that certainly tend to make an honest thinking person think that there may be a co-dominant gene involved. My experience so far involving many breedings gives results that are first in a dominant fashion numbers wise. I think others have done more of the second generation breedings that point to a co-dominant mutation. But the skeptics will remain.

My own “Nova Boas” are one of the bloodlines that I refer to. Here are a few of them:

Here is a non-hypo male produced in this first litter:

This is the first Boa from this line. His mother is the original Monster Tail Female. He is the Father of the first litter of Nova Boas.

It is my opinion that all of these aberrant animals that have popped up in both Hypo and non-hypo offspring, may very well be the same mutation. They seem to have come from the Hypo Mutation that originated with Dr. David Hardy who caught the first Hypo in Panama in the early 1980’s. I am not sure exactly how to prove that these mutations are the same as it probably can’t be done. Be that as it may. We are all in the early stages of making more cool animals from these aberrant offspring and I look forward to doing more of it in the future.

Here is the latest result of one of those breedings that I was fortunate to see babies from a couple weeks ago. Here is a female I kept that had many characteristics that made me wonder is something strange was going on:

She has this odd yellow color as a baby and was missing many or her “saddle points” like many good Jungles. She is also aberrantly patterned. She is about 8’ long in this picture that was taken about 7 months ago. Below is a picture of the father of this recent litter:

Unfortunately the father proved to be a Super Hypo so I didn’t get any non-hypo offspring. There were however 29 babies of which ten have very significant aberrancies that could be “Supers” for this mutation. There is no way to know for sure, but it does work number wise with the outcome we had. Here are a number of those babies.

Here was one I thought was pretty interesting but not aberrant at all.

This is all great fun you know. I have another litter from this particular line bred to the non-hypo Nova Boa shown above due in a number of weeks. I can’t wait to see those puppies! OK. I have babbled long enough.

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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Replies (8)

viandy Aug 01, 2009 11:33 AM

What about the ones posted on July 30 by perfectpredators ? It had the Angolan look in it and many others. It seemed outside the realm of normal variation and into the incredible!
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give up television - 100% cold turkey. Leave what isn't real and go to what is real.
Spend time with nature, see the ground and the sky, feel your place on this earth,
see the trees, the plants, birds, animals, feel their life. And feel your own life.
Dr. William Pierce (paraphrased)

perfectpredators Aug 01, 2009 09:09 PM

Happy to read your comment. Trust me I had to rub my eyes a few times fir sure. I'm with jeff that this is all the beauty of breeding captive lines of boas and the hypo gene which is you're gonna get odd balls every so often. Thanks again.

boaphile Aug 02, 2009 08:15 AM

The aberrant babies are the type that I wrote about here. The Angolan Boa, that is in a league of it's own! That is an absolute for sure keeper I'm sure for Manny. That is not what I was referring to at all.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

perfectpredators Aug 01, 2009 09:20 PM

I like what I see with your line, and I thin that I speak for many when I say that I appreciate the time you took to be controversial..LOL at any rate I think I will want to throw in some of your aberrant stuff to the litter born earlier in the week to see what's a doing there...what say you professor?

boaphile Aug 02, 2009 08:16 AM

That sounds good to me Mr Manny NP
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

robertmcphee Aug 01, 2009 11:10 PM

I love Controversy! LOL
Or at lest I have learned to accept it over the past 4 years or so. I can only speak of my line of animals which you all know as the Cyclones. I am responding to this post admittedly without reading anyones responses thus far, so please forgive me if I sound redundant in contrast to what has been posted thus far.

I have been discussing and sometimes arguing with those who oppose or disagree with what I have labeled and/or marketed my animals which belong to the Cyclone line. The number one argument has always been about the validity and heritable nature of the aberrancies and other characteristics that the Cyclones possess. The common response has always been, oh nice litter, but it must have been temperature fluctuations and the other always popular statement...oh Hypos are known to "throw" aberrant animals....and several others. And when I propose an idea or set of ideas that either partially debunks these theories to the best of my ability given the knowledge I have thus attained through my breeding trials combined with trials performed by others with the same line.................

With all of this drama it sometimes makes some of this very unappealing and at first distracted me from the whole reason I started keeping boas.....the love of the animals and the desire to "create" exciting versions of what nature created.....some call it a god complex, I would say in some sense they are right.
With all that said I would like to add that I welcome all these "new" lines of aberrancies with open arms!! Maybe with more people working with these they will gain the acceptance that they have always deserved regardless of whether it was started by a "newbie" who may or may not know as much as the general population in the reptile community or whether it was started by one of the "big dogs" on the block. Im not saying that every aberrant animal has heritable traits, but what I am saying is for those who like the abberrancines and continue to improve and produce spectacular animals year after year, do they not deserve at least a little bit of respect and/or recognition--I look forward to the challenge.

If you made it this far....I thank you for taking the time to read this. Now I will read the rest of the posts and figure out if this rant was pertinent to the discussion....lol!
And of course some Cyclones!!!







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Robert McPhee
www.BBCExotics.com

perfectpredators Aug 02, 2009 11:13 AM

I think that jeff Ronne is dead on in the explanation he gave regarding the hypo gene inheritedly contains slot of abberancies. Furthermore his history of the animals origin from panama and the history of the jungle also is what it is. However Ive noticed that historically a person will pick up an animal from a line let's say for the point of my story a aby line animal. Then this animal is bred to an unrelated choice animal purchased let's say (again for the point of this story let's use a possibility that's available to me) at strictly reptile and it's a captive import from Colombia. Now the choice import selectively picked from strictly and the aby threw out something extraordinary and this breeder wants to call it a new line so to at least take credit for having the foresight and skill of joining 2 lines and makig something special. Now lets say from here on forward that's the name this person wants to use- well that's ok I believe as long as the person also states that a parent was an aby line, and more breedings have to be done to make the new line official. This both helps follow lines back to their origin and give credit to breeders that are doing special things and want more credit. I have no issue with this although I don't want to rename anything if it's not from a fresh import, or a true freak like the "Angolan boa" LOL which mr. Ronne dubbed, my intentions and those of others in terms of what their goals are with their breedings are different however I can understand other points of views. I may be naive and naming every little aberrancy could be a bad thing. I am only stating it when someone has fine out of their way and done something special which produced something special and want to call it something for feelings of recognition, accomplishment, ego what have you it's ok as long as "props" are given to any parent of the new litter which was an already existing line. Example this is the "abc123 boa" produced by a aby to a fresh select import and produced these different to anything boas. Makes sense? Can we agree this is ok? Manny

boaphile Aug 02, 2009 03:00 PM

You and I can agree Mr. Manny but getting the masses to agree to something is very tough. Unfortunately, cronyism and personal likes and dislikes of people play more of a role in what people will accept and what they won't.

All I know is that the now several bloodlines that I have that have had these "Jungle like" aberrancies have all descended from two F1 Hypos that were born to the original Panamanian Hypo back in 1990 or 1991. These are two of the furthest back traced Hypos that I know of. They were purchased with a female Hypo as well by Marcia Lincoln and Bill Girden. I obtained them in 1995 which was before Rich started to sell Salmons I think. That is except for a single pair that was sold to Dr. Regis Opferman, but I'm chasing a rabbit. The female Hypo by the way is the Mother of the Double Het for Ghost that Bill Kirby used to produce the first Ghosts Boas back in 2000 it was I believe. They were all three siblings. None of them had any aberrant pattern. They were decent looking at the time, but in retrospect, they were shamefully unattractive compared to what we see today. The first litter that one of those males produced for me with aberrant babies was the litter in which this Monster Tail Hypo was produced in 2000. That was the first "Monster Tail Hypo" litter. There was another aberrant one in the litter. A crazy female non-hypo which I unfortunately, sold knowing that most aberrancies are not genetic.

When he produced babies proving this fellows aberrancies to be genetic, those were what I called the "Nova Boas". So the aberrant babies that I have produced and no doubt will continue to produce, I will be calling "Nova Boas". Just to be clear, I am not trying to make the pronouncement that anyone else should feel any obligation to use this name. Only that because of the long history I have with the line, I will stick with the name I gave them a long time ago. Many other names are out there and people should call whatever they produce whatever they want to call them. The masses determine which names stick and which names don't.

Have fun!
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

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